New Firstborn Terminators [Rumour]

[WrathOfTheLion]

GW definitely created the division, and for I think good (in their mind) reasons at the time. They took a gamble and had no clue whether the new kits would do well, and needed to have that division in place to ensure you'd go all in on the jump to make the new product line successful. Now, the kits did very well, and so what that's done since is exacerbate whatever annoying bickering of 'primaris are bad', or 'firstborn should go to legends'.

 

I think it would be a good thing for the hobby and the community in general if they do just do new Terminators, rescaled or redesigned or whatever, and they're just Space Marines, all of them having access to Terminator armor.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

2 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

I don’t know why they decided they can’t use each others’ transports… annoying but not the end of the world either.

I think thats the one thing that really does annoy me.

 

The fact that 5 Aggressors or Heavy Intercessors can't ride a Land Raider.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Just now, Brother Captain Arkley said:

I think thats the one thing that really does annoy me.

 

The fact that 5 Aggressors or Heavy Intercessors can't ride a Land Raider.

I've always wanted to have my Deathwing Bladeguards jump out of a Land Raider Crusader. Maybe next edition...

[Slave to Darkness]

If GW just gave us better marine sculpts people would have been happy, no one asked for Primaris. GW chose to give Primaris different rules making them BETTER than firstborn. As for things changing, a first ed marine is the same as a current marine rules wise (an RTB01 is the same as the new Mk6, ones just taller and the detail is sharper) but they are inferior to Primaris. They could have just made taller Mk7, but a lot of people wouldnt replace their smaller sculpts due to cost no doubt, so to get people to go all in on new marine armies is to make them the new hot :cuss: with rules making them more desirable over firstborn. We didnt make that divide, they did. 

 

Regardless of whos fault it is, the divide is there, whats GW gonna do to close it? Getting rid of the Primaris keyword and just let marines be marines again would be good.

[Kallas]

44 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

GW didn’t create a divide… it’s the people who can’t accept Primaris who did. Look back at T3 RTB Marines - things change.

 

When they introduced new Marine sculpts to replace RTB Marines, did the RTB Marines stay at T3? Or was it an updated kit? Point is that that is a terrible analogy, because those are new scuplts, not an entirely separate line of New Marines, which is what Primaris are.

 

GW did create the divide, because Primaris are literally better in both lore and in terms of statlines, while being definitively different. They are not Tactical Marines in better armour; they are Intercessors with better Bolters and higher stats, and with keywords that Firstborn don't get access to.

 

If these new Terminators are really coming, then if they're Firstborn but with new sculpts, they will replace the old Terminator datasheets but old Terminators will still be useable; or they'll be Primaris, with options entirely distinct from Firstborn Terminators but treading the same ground and ultimately attempting to replace them. Simply, there is no value, for the players, to have the Primaris divide there, and it is absolutely GW who put that divide there.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

30 minutes ago, Slave to Darkness said:

If GW just gave us better marine sculpts people would have been happy, no one asked for Primaris. GW chose to give Primaris different rules making them BETTER than firstborn. As for things changing, a first ed marine is the same as a current marine rules wise (an RTB01 is the same as the new Mk6, ones just taller and the detail is sharper) but they are inferior to Primaris. They could have just made taller Mk7, but a lot of people wouldnt replace their smaller sculpts due to cost no doubt, so to get people to go all in on new marine armies is to make them the new hot with rules making them more desirable over firstborn. We didnt make that divide, they did. 

 

Regardless of whos fault it is, the divide is there, whats GW gonna do to close it? Getting rid of the Primaris keyword and just let marines be marines again would be good.

You are leaving out the fact that SM used to be T3. Geedub will not get rid of the keyword Primaris just because these types of threads invariably turn into a host of diatribes from people that can’t accept change. It’s always the same every time.

 

Also you can’t make a blanket statement Primaris is better… in fact some of the most competitive units are FB.

Edited January 20, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Brother Captain Arkley]

And while GW did create a divide, The fandom well and truly picked up the torch and ran with it.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Brother Captain Arkley

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think it’s more of a vocal minority. I’ve never met anyone in person that has issues with Primaris. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Kallas]

6 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

You are leaving out the fact that SM used to be T3. Geedub will not get rid of the keyword Primaris just because these types of threads invariably turn into a host of diatribes from people that can’t accept change. It’s always the same every time.

As yes, can't accept change for change's sake. Primaris being introduced as a new type of better, stronger, faster Marine for...literally no reason is good change right?

 

Why should we accept change just because it happens? Should we just accept more severe weather changes, even though we can make efforts to prevent them? No, of course not! So why the hell should we be ok with changes just because they were introduced? Mistakes are still mistakes, even if they are past tense.

 

7 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Also you can’t make a blanket statement Primaris is better… in fact some of the most competitive units are FB.

As the one talking about T3 Marines, you sure missed the point: Primaris literally have better statlines. There was no comment about the competitiveness of specific units, as those wax and wane with the MFM/Dataslate. Currently, Eradicators are still top notch units, as are Devastators; Terminators are good, and so are Aggressors; Dreadnoughts are...uh, I guess ok, while Redemptors are less good than before but still strong.

 

Competitiveness wasn't mentioned, but Primaris literally have higher stats, and lore has been putting them as better than Firstborn since Day One. That's literally what GW have been putting them as from the start.

[Slave to Darkness]

6 minutes ago, Kallas said:

 

When they introduced new Marine sculpts to replace RTB Marines, did the RTB Marines stay at T3? Or was it an updated kit? Point is that that is a terrible analogy, because those are new scuplts, not an entirely separate line of New Marines, which is what Primaris are.

 

GW did create the divide, because Primaris are literally better in both lore and in terms of statlines, while being definitively different. They are not Tactical Marines in better armour; they are Intercessors with better Bolters and higher stats, and with keywords that Firstborn don't get access to.

 

If these new Terminators are really coming, then if they're Firstborn but with new sculpts, they will replace the old Terminator datasheets but old Terminators will still be useable; or they'll be Primaris, with options entirely distinct from Firstborn Terminators but treading the same ground and ultimately attempting to replace them. Simply, there is no value, for the players, to have the Primaris divide there, and it is absolutely GW who put that divide there.

Marines only went up to T4 (and their 4+ save went to 3+) because Orks got buffs and made them better when they got Ere we Go and Eldar got a decent list in WD as well. That was after the introduction of Mk7. The T increase was only due to game balance.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It wasn’t change just for the sake of change though and regarding which is better I go by what a unit brings to the table, not just a stat line.

[Orange Knight]

6 minutes ago, Kallas said:

 

When they introduced new Marine sculpts to replace RTB Marines, did the RTB Marines stay at T3? Or was it an updated kit? Point is that that is a terrible analogy, because those are new scuplts, not an entirely separate line of New Marines, which is what Primaris are.

 

Is it the fact that GW simply gave them a new name that riled people up so much?

 

Even if they were simply regular Marines that were made with uncorrupted, non degredaded geneseed from the Vaults on Terra, armed with new armour and weapons, all the existing issues would still be there.

 

It's a new line of models, with different guns, better scale, and units that resemble the Horus Heresy organisation that is better suited to war. The older Marine would still look old and squat.

 

It should be mentioned that organising the units for a specific purposed, the same way Eldar aspects are done, or the 30k squads, or the dedicated units in other factions, is the best move GW did for the faction. I'm grateful they did this.

 

The Astartes lore and chapter organisation was so overly detailed and catalogued that it actually stiffled any and all creativity, and crushed the opportunity to freely introduce new units or change things. Even now, people are saying how they simply wished they got upscaled versions of the old units.

 

How is regurgitating the same squads over and over better than a fresh start which streamlines the units and updated the design ethos, whilst allowing the artists more freedom to create things which break away from the lore and design limitations of the old line?

 

What GW did was bold and brave. They tore up the rulebook in regards to the faction. They dragged it into a new age. This was never going to be smooth, or easy because they were dealing with 35 years of entrenchment.

 

-I prefer Intercessors to Tactical Marines. 

-I prefer Eradicators to Devastators.

-I think the Bladeguard Veterans are better than any Veteran style unit in the traditional line.

-The Redemptor is the best looking Dreadnought IMO, although you can argue the Leviathan is admittedly. 

-I like the fact that Astartes vehicles are FINALLY separated to the rest of the Imperium commoners by a clear technological sophistication divide. 

 

I will buy some new Primaris Terminators that take the best elements from the old kits and streamline the options and design whilst adding extra punch, but I will not cling on to the old line of Marines in the 40k setting.

 

And I say this as someone who just completed a 4k Horus Heresy army made up entirely of the new models released over the last year lol

[Brother Captain Arkley]

2 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

I think it’s more of a vocal minority. I’ve never met anyone in person that has issues with Primaris. 

Oh its possible. But I can only speak of my experiences on here I can talk about. And from a certain vocal minority which I took exception to and had a semi public meltdown about the anti-primaris mob.

 

I wish GW never created the divide, I wish the fandom didn't run with it.

 

We should not be enemies.

[Slave to Darkness]

14 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

You are leaving out the fact that SM used to be T3. Geedub will not get rid of the keyword Primaris just because these types of threads invariably turn into a host of diatribes from people that can’t accept change. It’s always the same every time.

 

Also you can’t make a blanket statement Primaris is better… in fact some of the most competitive units are FB.

I meant they were better at release (tbh I should have made that bit clearer, my bad), thats why people kicked back and GW buffed firstborn because they realised people were not happy with the divide they created. Marines being T3 has nothing to do with it, all marines were T3, the jump to T4 has nothing to do with new kits, but improved rules for other races left marines behind. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The point being is there has been change in the past. I’m sure there’ll be more in the future as well.

[Slave to Darkness]

14 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

I think it’s more of a vocal minority. 

So does a vocal minority matter? Or should they be ignored for what the majority want?

2 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

The point being is there has been change in the past. I’m sure there’ll be more in the future as well.

Oh yes, it is GW, if they dont change things they will stop making cash. Change is expected, regardless if its good or not.

[Emperor Ming]

2 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

The point being is there has been change in the past. I’m sure there’ll be more in the future as well.

Absolutely, and when the 10th marine dex comes around, some datasheets are prob for the chop that don't have models anymore

[Kallas]

6 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

It wasn’t change just for the sake of change though and regarding which is better I go by what a unit brings to the table, not just a stat line.

It really was, and is, just for the sake of change. There was no benefit to making Primaris entirely distinct from Firstborn, and was done entirely on 

 

And your definition of what's better is irrelevant when you're the one who brought up statline buffs. You talked about Marines going from T3 to T4, and now you're deflecting to ignore that Primaris are not the same situation, because these are separate units with better stats, not the same units with new stats.

 

14 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

[I'm fine with so I don't care]

Ok.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

3 minutes ago, Slave to Darkness said:

So does a vocal minority matter? Or should they be ignored for what the majority want?

 

As one of them isn't that a question you can answer?

[Slave to Darkness]

Anyhoo this is going nowhere, as Brother Captain Arkley said, were not enemies. Ignoring what bloody keyword they are gonna have what do people want/not want in the sculpts themselves? Do people want to see the classic design, something a bit more Cawlified or something inbetween?

[KnightofSigismund]

1 hour ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

GW didn’t create a divide… it’s the people who can’t accept Primaris who did. Look back at T3 RTB Marines - things change.

This is the simple cold honest truth. 

[Slave to Darkness]

4 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

As one of them isn't that a question you can answer?

Every players opinion matters, especially when they have sunk tons of cash into the hobby over 30 years. I just wanted others opinion on the vocal minorities.

[Kallas]

2 minutes ago, Slave to Darkness said:

Do people want to see the classic design

Yes.

 

2 minutes ago, Slave to Darkness said:

more Cawlified

No. Cawl's hand in everything is one of the things that's made Primaris terrible - everything he touches is magically superior in every way. He needs to be present less, not more.

[Orange Knight]

13 minutes ago, Kallas said:

It really was, and is, just for the sake of change. There was no benefit to making Primaris entirely distinct from Firstborn, and was done entirely on 

 

And your definition of what's better is irrelevant when you're the one who brought up statline buffs. You talked about Marines going from T3 to T4, and now you're deflecting to ignore that Primaris are not the same situation, because these are separate units with better stats, not the same units with new stats.

 

Ok.

 

Your suggestion is that they simply re-release the same kits over and over, and that nothing is changed.

 

I'd rather buy something entirely new and exciting over the same thing that's slightly bigger.

 

For example, We had 30 years of Tactical Squad updates. That old line was spent. We had dedicated Space Wolf Tactical Marines, and Blood Angels, a generic kit, older kits updated in 2nd, 3rd and 5th and 7th editions, I even had a dedicated Dark Angel Tactical squad at one point.

 

Nothing changed, nothing was truly exciting. Centurions were literally the only truly new idea, if you don't count the flyers, that we saw for Astartes in decades prior to the Primaris, and that caused a lot of drama because Games Workshop had locked the faction lore down so tightly that new things were simply not allowed.

 

Yes, the Primaris are better in the lore. They are the response the Imperium gave when a cruel and dark universe tried to tear it in two. And the Primaris line has been wildly successful, that is without question.

How does it benefit a hobbyist to reject it?

On what grounds are they doing so?

Is it the lore? It was shaky to start but has improved significantly in the last 5 years.

The models? Aside from some duds they look pretty great.

The cost? Well... this is GW we are talking about here, but it's one of the cheapest factions to collect.

 

Edit:

 

Cawl? You mean the last human scientist who worked alongside the Emperor before the Great Crusade to create the Astartes? He's no more a Maru Sue than Abaddon or Ghaz - characters like this have always existed in the setting.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Kallas]

4 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Your suggestion is that they simply re-release the same kits over and over, and that nothing is changed.

Can you quote that for me please?

I didn't say no new releases/only rereleases, but Primaris is making new releases entirely distinct for no good reason.

 

13 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Yes, the Primaris are better in the lore. They are the response the Imperium gave when a cruel and dark universe tried to tear it in two. And the Primaris line has been wildly successful, that is without question.

How does it benefit a hobbyist to reject it?

On what grounds are they doing so?

Is it the lore? It was shaky to start but has improved significantly in the last 5 years.

The models? Aside from some duds they look pretty great.

The cost? Well... this is GW we are talking about here, but it's one of the cheapest factions to collect.

How does it benefit the hobbyist to buy into new models just because GW makes them? Like, this isn't a question, this is stupid. If a hobbyist doesn't want to, should they be forced to adopt the new stuff or be pushed out of the hobby?

 

On what grounds? Lore, model preferences, whatever the hobbyist considers. It's really not up to you to say that they should just accept it because they should. 

 

Lore? Yes, it started shaky and it got slightly better, but it still rests on the same awful beginnings. Primaris still represent a massive change to the Imperium as a whole, which is a huge change to the setting.

 

Models? Yes, some are awful, and some are good. But then, people keep talking about how Firstborn models look crap, while seemingly ignoring the crap Primaris - so if Primaris aren't unequivocally better than Firstborn models, why are they distinct? Again, why are they a separate line? Why aren't they simply new Space Marine units based on the rewrite of the Codex organisation?

 

Why do Primaris exist as a whole separate kind of Marine?

 

7 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Cawl? You mean the last human scientist who worked alongside the Emperor before the Great Crusade to create the Astartes? He's no more a Maru Sue than Abaddon or Ghaz - characters like this have always existed in the setting.

Yeah, that one that's existed in the background, apparently doing everything and making everything perfect for 10,000 actual years (compared to Abaddon with warp time issues).

 

If he'd been a part of the Heresy stuff, fine. If he'd been a part of the 40k stuff, fine; but the fact that they've used him as some amazing perfect genius in both is lazy and it is more of a Mary Sue. Abaddon has been slapped down numerous times, and Ghazkhull is the most powerful Ork in existence...and got killed by Ragnar (and then both of them 'got better'/got fixed).

 

Cawl's story happened in about 2 years, and it went from "he's the best" to "he's been the best for 10,000 years!", pretty much anyway. It's 5th Ed Matt Ward levels.