New Firstborn Terminators [Rumour]

[Orange Knight]

@Kallas

 

You said in an earlier post that you wished they had just upscaled the classic models. I'd rather GW didn't just regurgitate the same kits again for the 12th time.

 

Nothing categorically does or doesn't benefit the hobbyist. Everything about this hobby is optional. 

The Hobby is about collecting and painting models, and building up a collection (and playing of course).

There are simply new models to collect and build now. Making the decision to avoid or ignore the releases for a faction you evidently care about over a period of half a decade and over isn't going to bring joy to a any hobbyist.

 

I agree some models are pretty ugly, buy the majority are an improvement over their traditional analogues. What's not to like about the Intercessors or Bladeguard Veterans? 

You're not going to see me singing the praises of the Suppressors or the silly Invader (although it is definitely better than the attack bike)!

 

As for Cawl not being part of the Heresy lore, he does actually feature in a novel or two. 

Lore has things added to it over time. If you were truly a purist then you would find fault with the entire history of the Astartes faction. They used to be regular guys in power suits who were assigned sex slaves as a reward for their successes in the original lore.

 

Besides, Cawl is 6+ years old now. He's a well established character that features in multiple novels, and his history is fleshed out and interesting. When Marneus Calgar was introduced back in 3rd edition, no one complained that he wasn't spoken of in the Rogue Trader rulebook.

 

Anyways, how many plastic Terminator kits already exist?

 

-2x Generic kits

-2x HH Variants kits

-GK Termies

-2x DA Variants

-SW Termies

-BA Termies

-Space Marine Heroes Terminators 

-Countless FW Variants (not counting)

Many of the above are also 2nd or 3rd generation kits that replaced earlier Terminator models.

 

My question here is... do we need an Eleventh classic Astarter Terminator kit? 

Or would it make more sense for GW to release the First Primaris variant that has new lore and does something different?

 

Edit: I didn't even count all the Chaos Variants. 

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Brother Captain Arkley]

8 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

You're not going to see me singing the praises of the Suppressors or the silly Invader (although it is definitely better than the attack bike)!

 

 

 

*Cries*...

 

We can't be friends any more Orange :D.

[Captain Idaho]

Just because someone doesn't like what you like, doesn't mean they're against change or need to be labelled in any other manner. Editions and rules change all the time, new games even get created and the same people are on board with that. 

 

It doesn't matter that someone doesn't like your favourite type of models, long as you like them and they're not attacking you in the street!

 

It's been said in this very thread and others that Firstborn should be moved into Legends and that people won't buy new Terminators if they're Firstborn. This thread is about new Firstborn and it's negativity is rather sour.

 

That's fine! I take no offence to that because my models have been slighted! People can have an opinion, I don't have to agree or attack their opinion.

 

Besides, we really are kidding ourselves if new Terminators don't tempt us all eh. Primaris or not.

[phandaal]

31 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

For example, We had 30 years of Tactical Squad updates. That old line was spent.

 

People bought different scale Tactical Marines over and over for 30 years. To me that says people would have continued buying Tactical Marines, especially if they got a rework from some of the excellent artists who do a lot of GW's best modern sculpts.

[Kallas]

3 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

You said in an earlier post that you wished they had just upscaled the classic models. I'd rather GW didn't just regurgitate the same kits again for the 12th time.

Right, that's not the same as no new releases, geez.

 

4 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

What's not to like about the Intercessors or Bladeguard Veterans? 

Poseability for one. Intercessors are harder to pose differently, and conversions to make them more dynamic are harder.

 

5 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

As for Cawl not being part of the Heresy lore, he does actually feature in a novel or two. 

No, I know, what I was saying is that if he was a major player in Heresy or a major player in 40k it'd be better - instead, he's this crossover character that gets to be the absolute best at everything he touches.

 

Yes, he did help the Emperor with the Astartes project, but then now he just creates new, better Marines, that he then hides for 10,000 years. Ugh.

 

7 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Lore has things added to it over time. If you were truly a purist then you would find fault with the entire history of the Astartes faction. They used to be regular guys in power suits who were assigned sex slaves as a reward for their successes in the original lore.

Yes it does - but things tend to change gradually. Cawl and Primaris is just dumping a massive change with no build up. There was no indication of the Primaris in the lore, until they just plopped an entire line into existence and said "deal with it." There wasn't any use of Corax's experiments, or the Cursed Founding which would have had grounding, they just crapped out Primaris into the universe.

 

11 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Besides, Cawl is 6+ years old now. He's a well established character that features in multiple novels, and his history is fleshed out and interesting. When Marneus Calgar was introduced back in 3rd edition, no one complained that he wasn't spoken of in the Rogue Trader rulebook.

Marneus Calgar didn't warp the entire 40k setting around him, and the introduction of a Chapter Master is not unreasonable: the introduction of a character who just shifts the whole setting is not the same. Scale is the issue: Cawl changed the entire Imperium, Calgar did not even do much with the Ultramarines overall, other than be present at a few big fights. Calgar didn't windmill slam multiple Legions-worth of NewMarines into existence. Not the same, and it's disingenuous to compare them, but you probably knew that.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

3 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Besides, we really are kidding ourselves if new Terminators don't tempt us all eh. Primaris or not.

I don't 100% agree with the rest so I am not going to drag it out.

 

But yeah if the new Terminators are better proportioned like Abaddon but still firstborn I originally said I doubt I will buy them.

 

But if they fit the scale of Abaddon and dimensions I will end up with lots :D

[Kallas]

Just now, Brother Captain Arkley said:

But yeah if the new Terminators are better proportioned like Abaddon but still firstborn I originally said I doubt I will buy them.

But if they fit the scale of Abaddon and dimensions I will end up with lots :D

Upscaled Terminators would be great. It does boggle my mind how Abaddon has the INFANTRY keyword, while Guilliman has the MONSTER keyword though 

[Brother Captain Arkley]

Just now, Kallas said:

Upscaled Terminators would be great. It does boggle my mind how Abaddon has the INFANTRY keyword, while Guilliman has the MONSTER keyword though 

I think, not your keyword part but the upscaled part.

 

Chaos Terminators while nice they follow the rest before them, Abaddon broke the mould Terminator design wise.

 

If our Primaris/Firstborn Terminators follow Abaddon I will buy them and at least 50 of them :D. I love Terminators.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

1 hour ago, Slave to Darkness said:

Every players opinion matters, especially when they have sunk tons of cash into the hobby over 30 years. I just wanted others opinion on the vocal minorities.

Here’s my issue… is basically the same fraters here that voice the same issues time and time again religiously every time they get the chance, derailing these threads. To me that’s immature and not healthy discussion. Believe me when I say I know how you feel and don’t need to be constantly reminded. GW is not going to bow down to what you want, so it just seems it’d be more constructive to learn how to accept the change and move on. It’d be greatly appreciated - believe me.

[Orange Knight]

8 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

People bought different scale Tactical Marines over and over for 30 years. To me that says people would have continued buying Tactical Marines, especially if they got a rework from some of the excellent artists who do a lot of GW's best modern sculpts.

 

They sure did.

 

And then people bought the Primaris in droves, and GW had the biggest growth in both profits and fame for 20 years or so.

For almost 6 years, all new plastic 40k Astartes have been Primaris. It suggests GW aren't regretting the new line.

 

But as I said, some people just want to see the same kits being re-released every few years.

 

I'd rather have the 1st Primaris Terminators instead of the 15th regurgitation of the old kit.

18 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

 

*Cries*...

 

We can't be friends any more Orange :D.

 

Lol I apologise. Which of your liked kits did I talk down to in my ignorance? 

[WrathOfTheLion]

If they release new tactical kits, they're going to be in the same model style as the new CSM kits and the Primaris kits. Same with the Terminators if they are firstborn, the ball joint at the waist is out of style entirely, that part isn't coming back.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That’s a big if and there’s nothing to suggest they would either.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

3 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Lol I apologise. Which of your liked kits did I talk down to in my ignorance? 

Both the Suppressors and ATV :D.

 

But I get why people don't like them, I disliked Phobos at the start.

 

But yeah the simple solution is just pay x points = Primaris. Issue is GW sometimes are simply their own worse enemy.

 

[phandaal]

15 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

And then people bought the Primaris in droves, and GW had the biggest growth in both profits and fame for 20 years or so.

For almost 6 years, all new plastic 40k Astartes have been Primaris. It suggests GW aren't regretting the new line.

 

Some of that money came from my pocketbook... There are thousands of points of Primaris Greenwing on my shelf right now, because I liked the models.

 

That is irrelevant to what I said though.

[WrathOfTheLion]

27 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

That’s a big if and there’s nothing to suggest they would either.

The point though is that it isn't relevant to the poseability due to the loss of that joint. Both CSM and 30k kits have also dropped it for obvious reasons, so that is done no matter what.

[Orange Knight]

@Kallas

 

How do you know that the cursed founding had nothing to do with Cawl? These foundings could have been failed test runs for various experimental Astartes he had worked on. 

 

This is the kind of golden opportunity that we have to fill gaps in the lore that is better left ambiguous for this exact reason. We don't need everything to be outlined in great detail.

 

There is nothing wrong with having key players in the setting. This isn't a paradigm shift. Most Ork lore revolves around Ghaz. Most traitor campaigns involve Abaddon. An entire faction was named after 1 character of renown - Farsight.

 

In a few years time Cawl will be celebrating his 10th birthday, and would have been involved in 4-5 editions of 40k and dozens of novels. 

 

 

[Captain Idaho]

41 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Here’s my issue… is basically the same fraters here that voice the same issues time and time again religiously every time they get the chance, derailing these threads. To me that’s immature and not healthy discussion. Believe me when I say I know how you feel and don’t need to be constantly reminded. GW is not going to bow down to what you want, so it just seems it’d be more constructive to learn how to accept the change and move on. It’d be greatly appreciated - believe me.

 

Let's not accuse people of derailing threads when this discussion has be derailed by Primaris fans stating they want Firstborn sent to Legends etc.

 

[Kallas]

Just now, Orange Knight said:

How do you know that the cursed founding had nothing to do with Cawl? These foundings could have been failed test runs for various experimental Astartes he had worked on. 

This is the kind of golden opportunity that we have to fill gaps in the lore that is better left ambiguous for this exact reason. We don't need everything to be outlined in great detail.

Right, that's the point - they didn't use that opportunity, they just had him make everything entirely separated. Like you said before, it's been 6 years, why have we not had any lore about that? Because they don't care about tying it in, they're jsut making Primaris new and separate. They could have actually made some effort to tie Primaris, but they didn't and they don't seem to have any interest in doing so.

 

44 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

it’d be more constructive to learn how to accept the change and move on

Maybe if GW put in the effort to make the Marine situation better, but they've settled on the worst of both worlds. They could have squatted the Firstborn line, which would have been an absolute mess; or they could have made the Primaris the new organisation that Guilliman made; or they could have made Primaris actually fully separated and had a schism between the old and new.

 

But instead we have a limbo where nothing is resolved. Firstborn aren't gone, but they clearly are not getting support, and Primaris are getting everything going forward - so for those of us who do greatly enjoy Firstborn stuff (my love for Land Raiders is hardly something I keep secret), how can I move forward when I am forced to abandon what actually makes me enjoy Marines? Am I supposed to dump my Raiders and buy Repulsors, even though I find their models disgusting? Hell, I have Primaris, and I've converted some quite a lot (Supressors with proper jump packs look good; the Aggressors I made with what basically amounts to an Assault Cannon back when they had one ranged weapon profile, because I hate the look of their gompy fists), so I am well aware of what the future is - but why am I supposed to just ditch the parts of Marines that I have enjoyed for the past 20+ years? And why the hell do you get to demand that just because you're fine with it?

 

For these new rumoured Terminators, I only have about 15 now (used to have about 40, but lost them in a move about 8 years ago) - why would I be content with new Primaris models, when I greatly enjoy the current ones? If they are new, upscaled Firstborn, is that a problem for Primaris players, and if so, why when it's exactly the same situation for Firstborn enjoyers?

[Kallas]

12 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Let's not accuse people of derailing threads when this discussion has be derailed by Primaris fans stating they want Firstborn sent to Legends etc.

It's funny, this thread was talking about rumoured Firstborn Terminators - and then Primaris enjoyers come in saying they don't want new units without the Primaris keyword, but then it's totally the Firstborn enjoyers who are the problem  

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

20 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Let's not accuse people of derailing threads when this discussion has be derailed by Primaris fans stating they want Firstborn sent to Legends etc.

 

Honestly I haven’t seen that posted in this thread yet.

10 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Right, that's the point - they didn't use that opportunity, they just had him make everything entirely separated. Like you said before, it's been 6 years, why have we not had any lore about that? Because they don't care about tying it in, they're jsut making Primaris new and separate. They could have actually made some effort to tie Primaris, but they didn't and they don't seem to have any interest in doing so.

 

Maybe if GW put in the effort to make the Marine situation better, but they've settled on the worst of both worlds. They could have squatted the Firstborn line, which would have been an absolute mess; or they could have made the Primaris the new organisation that Guilliman made; or they could have made Primaris actually fully separated and had a schism between the old and new.

 

But instead we have a limbo where nothing is resolved. Firstborn aren't gone, but they clearly are not getting support, and Primaris are getting everything going forward - so for those of us who do greatly enjoy Firstborn stuff (my love for Land Raiders is hardly something I keep secret), how can I move forward when I am forced to abandon what actually makes me enjoy Marines? Am I supposed to dump my Raiders and buy Repulsors, even though I find their models disgusting? Hell, I have Primaris, and I've converted some quite a lot (Supressors with proper jump packs look good; the Aggressors I made with what basically amounts to an Assault Cannon back when they had one ranged weapon profile, because I hate the look of their gompy fists), so I am well aware of what the future is - but why am I supposed to just ditch the parts of Marines that I have enjoyed for the past 20+ years? And why the hell do you get to demand that just because you're fine with it?

 

For these new rumoured Terminators, I only have about 15 now (used to have about 40, but lost them in a move about 8 years ago) - why would I be content with new Primaris models, when I greatly enjoy the current ones? If they are new, upscaled Firstborn, is that a problem for Primaris players, and if so, why when it's exactly the same situation for Firstborn enjoyers?

Obviously it takes time to release the full Primaris lineup. To suggest they could in one fell swoop is wishful thinking.

Edited January 20, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Kallas]

9 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Honestly I haven’t seen that posted in this thread yet.

Here you go. Self-proclaimed purely Primaris player stating that they don't want new units that do not have the Primaris keyword. Literally saying they don't want new stuff for other people.

[Captain Idaho]

7 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Honestly I haven’t seen that posted in this thread yet.

 

It is in the topic (pg2 it is stated at least once) but rather than go on about it...

 

Terminator squads... could they be same stats and bigger and get away with it or look absurd?

 

What does everyone think?

 

[phandaal]

Not wanting to use a new Terminator model because it does not follow the Primaris aesthetic is fine. Art is subjective.

 

Not wanting to use a new Terminator model because it does not say "Primaris" on the datasheet is low energy.

 

4 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Terminator squads... could they be same stats and bigger and get away with it or look absurd?

 

They would look more in line with how tanky they are supposed to be.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

1 minute ago, phandaal said:

Not wanting to use a new Terminator model because it does not follow the Primaris aesthetic is fine. Art is subjective.

 

Not wanting to use a new Terminator model because it does not say "Primaris" on the datasheet is low energy.

 

 

They would look more in line with how tanky they are supposed to be.

I plaint Primaris only...

 

But as I have said, we get them in line with Abby... I actually don't care what keyword they have.

[Captain Idaho]

I presume they won't look as big as Abaddon eh. He works out.