New Firstborn Terminators [Rumour]

[Orange Knight]

They absolutely need to scrap the vehicle limitations. Very silly at this point.

 

Even if Primaris can't enter a Rhino due to their size, they absolutely should be able to use a Landraider and better yet - the venerable Spartan.

 

In fact, the keyword should simply go. GW can keep everyone happy and also tidy up the codex by doing some heavy datasheet consolidation for the next update.

[Captain Idaho]

That's a point - if they're bigger, can they fit into a Land Raider the same?

 

Custodes can fit 5 infantry models, regardless whether they're Terminators or not, so I guess any new Terminators would be same as before - counting as 2 models.

 

(Presumption being they won't be bigger than Allarus Terminators)

 

Scale is obviously representative rather than exact, so Centurions aren't twice the size of Allarus Terminators but I imagine in "reality" would be even bigger. 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Even if Primaris can't enter a Rhino due to their size, they absolutely should be able to use a Landraider and better yet - the venerable Spartan.

 

 

The thing about the Rhino its always been small. Can we really think 10 marines (firstborn/primaris) can fit in it?

 

But all your other examples are spot on.

 

 

[WARMASTER_]

18 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

They absolutely need to scrap the vehicle limitations. Very silly at this point.

 

Even if Primaris can't enter a Rhino due to their size, they absolutely should be able to use a Landraider and better yet - the venerable Spartan.

 

In fact, the keyword should simply go. GW can keep everyone happy and also tidy up the codex by doing some heavy datasheet consolidation for the next update.

Agreed on that, GW unfortunately wrote themselves in a corner lore wise though 

 

Guy Hayley writing in that they’re far to large for Rhinos making it a lore point for instance rather than just a rules dynamic

 

Primaris aren’t that much bigger in lore and rhinos are 3.6M height x 6.6M length in lore, they aren’t sardine tins 

[Captain Idaho]

That's actually huge. Like, larger than MBT huge.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Agreed on that, GW unfortunately wrote themselves in a corner lore wise though 

 

Guy Hayley writing in that they’re far to large for Rhinos making it a lore point for instance rather than just a rules dynamic

 

Primaris aren’t that much bigger in lore and rhinos are 3.6M height x 6.6M length in lore, they aren’t sardine tins 

 

Ahh I never knew that info :)

 

The actual model is a hold over for years its small model wise.

 

I was once told how much a warp nacelle from Enterprise C weighted my eyes glossed over and I wanted shot :P.

Edited January 21, 2023 by Brother Captain Arkley

[WARMASTER_]

 

7 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

The actual model is a hold over for years its small model wise.

Oh definitely way to small! Most transports in game are tiny to there lore counterparts though

[Guest]

1 minute ago, WARMASTER_ said:

 

Oh definitely way to small! Most transports in game are tiny to there lore counterparts though

My issue is I feel dead inside being quoted tech specs from fictional universes... Damn that Star Trek nerd lol.

 

But yeah the issue is they have locked in the rhino size and its difficult to sort.

 

Its not just Space Marines that it effects, it would be Sisters, Toads, CSM.

 

But it all goes back to the bad handling of Lore and as you say GW really took the metaphorical shotgun to their foot.

 

I just want good Terminator models in the same vein as Abaddon. If GW do this and screw the keyword bingo. I will have at least 50 make my words this is a threat LOL.

 

[WAR]

=][= Last Warning everyone place nice and stay on topic- Firstborn Terminators [Rumor]=][=

[phandaal]

Sounds like the models will be a new sculpt of the classic Terminator design, and the datasheet will have the word "Primaris" on it.

 

If so, then it is highly unlikely there would be a separate version without the word "Primaris" on it. Maybe this is the long-awaited bridging of the gap between the old range and the new range.

 

The real question is, how long will it take the rules team to realize they made it impossible for these new Terminators to ride in a Land Raider? I imagine them like that "Two-and-a-Half Men" meme:

 

Rules Guy 1: "Think I forgot something."

Rules Guy 2: "If you forgot it, it wasn't important."

Rules Guy 1: "Yeah, you're right."

[Captain Idaho]

Make the meme!

 

Yeah it's a healthy place to be in, bridging the gap. Actually makes me kinda excited for 10th edition if we can have each unit being Space Marines with an optional Primaris upgrade - think what new units we could add for both Primaris and Firstborn (Gravis not withstanding).

 

The Terminators would likely have traditional weapons. I could see new heavy weapons added to the squad, perhaps even a new heavy variant of a heavy weapon (my mind went with Ash from the Evil Dead with a Chainsaw for a hand but maybe a glaive, Spear or Halberd would be more likely)?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Yeah it's a healthy place to be in, bridging the gap. Actually makes me kinda excited for 10th edition if we can have each unit being Space Marines with an optional Primaris upgrade - think what new units we could add for both Primaris and Firstborn (Gravis not withstanding).

 

 

For once I do genuinely agree with you...

 

I would love Primaris Tactical etc.

 

But it still at the point this whole split is something that never should have happened.

[Captain Idaho]

Thanks, I guess 

 

Modern Cawl inspired weapons are generally plasma based, but that seems... mundane somehow for a new Terminator Squad?

 

We have Volkite in the new releases a pistol, so perhaps a heavy weapon for the squad? Also new and exotic. Kind of steps on the toes of an Assault Cannon a little if an equivalent is used.

 

Grav weapons are fairly new and would potentially be interesting as an anti-heavy infantry weapon too.

 

Though I still think a Firstborn unit would have traditional weapons.

[phandaal]

We do have Plasma Cannons for Deathwing. Not worth it, in my opinion.

 

Overcharge failure needs to change to something like an auto-wound at the weapon's AP value rather than doing a Mortal Wound or nuking the model outright. (Mortal Wounds in general need to go the way of the dodo, but that is a separate discussion.)

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

2 hours ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Agreed on that, GW unfortunately wrote themselves in a corner lore wise though 

 

Guy Hayley writing in that they’re far to large for Rhinos making it a lore point for instance rather than just a rules dynamic

 

Primaris aren’t that much bigger in lore and rhinos are 3.6M height x 6.6M length in lore, they aren’t sardine tins 

 

Well, they already went from "far too large" to being able to squeeze a full squad into a Sisters' Rhino as of Gate of Bones.

 

Maybe in the next book it will be revealed that there are no space issues at all if they actually take the time to remove the center console and the spare tire.

[Guest]

I seen these on a discord server I am on...

 

If we get Terminators similar to these a nice blend of old and new I am 100% sold.

 

I know this is 3rd party so the chances are low but I do love this appearance.

[Karhedron]

They are OK but they are just Terminator torsos on Gravis legs by the looks of things. I kinda envisaged something a bit more creative.

 

Then again if it is too creative, people may not like it.

[WrathOfTheLion]

The gravis legs aren't really appealing to me for Terminators. They're fine on the gravis stuff, but I think it just doesn't work here.

 

What I want to see with them is that it looks different than MK X, where to get the durability needed they must break the pattern of just up-armored plates on top of their power armor. I think that concept needs to stay for it to feel like Terminator armor.

Edited January 26, 2023 by WrathOfTheLion

[Guest]

You both have valid points, :).

 

For me I would be happy with something like these, but I do agree they should be or close to the design.

 

It was just my bar :).

[lansalt]

IMO the key to classic terminators is the upper torso and head, which are the visual focus of attention. Anything else is negotiable.

[Lemondish]

2 minutes ago, lansalt said:

IMO the key to classic terminators is the upper torso and head, which are the visual focus of attention. Anything else is negotiable.

I would argue, at least if you're looking at mirroring an iconic look, that the armaments are also a key driver there. Storm bolters and power fists are the name of the game for me, with the most iconic Terminator heavy weapon being the assault cannon (in my opinion).

 

As for whether these are Firstborn or Primaris, latest video from Valrak suggests the distinction, at least in the rules, is going away. That could lend credence to this rumour as lacking the keyword on the datasheet would suggest Firstborn, but could just be the new design paradigm for Marines at play.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Just now, Lemondish said:

I would argue, at least if you're looking at mirroring an iconic look, that the armaments are also a key driver there. Storm bolters and power fists are the name of the game for me, with the most iconic Terminator heavy weapon being the assault cannon (in my opinion).

 

As for whether these are Firstborn or Primaris, latest video from Valrak suggests the distinction, at least in the rules, is going away. That could lend credence to this rumour as lacking the keyword on the datasheet would suggest Firstborn, but could just be the new design paradigm for Marines at play.

If they're making new ones and dropping the distinction, I think simply saying both go in the same armor and ending it there would be the right call from them. Then you just have new shiny miniatures to have fun with.

[Captain Idaho]

If the distinction between both Primaris and Firstborn truly goes away, I firmly believe we won't see a radical design change or weapon shift for the Terminators beyond perhaps some new heavy weapons. I also don't believe they will be scaled up beyond Primaris size, as Primaris infantry are pretty dang large and thus a Terminator is looking at being even bigger, like Centurion sized.

 

This purely based on Death Guard, Grey Knights, Thousand Sons and Chaos Marines all having Terminators who would as a result look far too dwarfed in comparison to a rescaled Terminator unit.

 

Of course, maybe GW would make the release of 10th edition the "Terminator release" and have all factions with Terminators getting new models, alongside Mega Armoured Orks and something something Votann. I doubt this would happen but it would be a great hook.

 

Then any upscaled Terminators would work in conjunction with everything else.

[Karhedron]

I am inclined to agree that radical upscaling is unlikely. However the current Terminators are 18 years old IIRC and are definitely looking a bit dated compared to the Chapter-specific versions or the new Chaos ones. My guess is we will get something that is not too radical and will be more in line with the "best" of the other faction-specific Terminators.

 

I hope they stick with the iconic Stormbolter and Powerfist (or some evolution of that). If they start going for MC Power weapons and the like, they risk competing too much with BGVs.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah and if they get bigger and better guns, they do tread on the shoes of Centurions.

 

It's a fine balance.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Captain Idaho