1st Company - theoretical and practical

[Captain Idaho]

With the release of Arks of Omen and increased flexibility in building army lists using Elites and no Troops if needed, I thought it time we recisted the concept of an all 1st Company Space Marine list.

 

Days gone past this usually worked as an excuse for players to take Terminators and little else, but I think with the amount of other units we can mix into the list we have some flexibility to be fairly competitive in light of the superior Terminator lists of the Dark Angels.

 

So before we go onto that part of the discussion, I suppose we should start with what constitutes a valid 1st Company Ultramarine choice.

 

In my mind, primarily it's as follows from the Codex:

 

Firstborn

 

HQ

• Captains of all types (we should concentrate on Terminator Captains for theme, though it's possible he could have brought his choppper along)

• Chaplains (again, let's concentrate on Terminators but we have flexibility)

• Librarians (again, whack them in Terminator Armour where we can)

• Lieutenant

 

ELITES

• Apothecary

• Ancient in Terminator Armour

• Company Champion

• Venerable Dreadnought

• Relic Terminator squad

• Terminator squad

• Terminator Assault squad

• Sternguard Veterans

• Vanguard Veterans

• Contemptor Dreadnought

• Tyrannic War Veterans

• Company Veterans

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

• Land Raider

• Land Raider Crusader

• Land Raider Redeemer

 

DEDICATED TRANSPORT

• Rhino

• Razorback

• Drop Pod

 

HONOURABLE MENTIONS

• Honour Guard

• Chapter Champion

• Chapter Ancient

• Chaplain Cassius

• Captain Sicarius

 

Note I deliberately missed out the Company Ancient because we have access to a more thematic representative in the Terminator Ancient. Likewise, I missed out the Dreadnought and Ironclad because the Venerable and Contemptor Dreadnoughts exist and are more suited to the theme.

 

The Honourable Mentions are Chapter Command and not strictly speaking 1st Company, but secondment goes hand in hand just like a Librarian so I wouldn't consider them to be out of character or theme.

 

Note Sicarius is now the commander of the Victrix Guard, so can join the 1st Company in much the same way as other characters.

 

Primaris

 

HQ

• Primaris Captains (Tacticus armour and NOT Phobos armour! The theme's not 10 Company!)

• Primaris Captain in Gravis armour

• Primaris Chaplain (he could use the bike)

• Primaris Lieutenant

• Primaris Librarian

 

ELITES

• Bladeguard Ancient

• Bladeguard Veterans

• Primaris Apothecary

• Veteran Intercessor squad

• Redemptor Dreadnought

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

• Repulsor

• Repulsor Executioner

 

DEDICATED TRANSPORT 

• Impulsor

 

HONOURABLE MENTIONS

• Marneus Calgar

• Chief Librarian Tigurius

• Victrix Guard

• Judiciar

 

As with Firstborn, the more thematic choices such as Bladeguard Anciet trumps the ordinary Primaris Ancient, but if you really want to, go there but you should have a decent theme in mind.

 

Hopefully that's nice and easy to read and choose from.

 

Competitively speaking, I think all Primaris 1st Company will be notably weaker than a standard Marine list, as you just can't build enough squads with the rule of three and you are severely limited in choices.

 

Aside from, that build what makes you happy.

 

Oh yeah, plus we can add Guilliman 

 

More to follow.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think an all terminator and landraider list would be super cool !!!

[Tacitus]

I'd like to see them work harder on Troop/ObSec for these theme lists - especially when it comes to the new Sticky Capping rules and lower model count themes like Terminators/Deathwing who have more need to sticky cap since they can't be on as many objectives at once. 

 

Another issue with these lists is the sad state of transports.  There's no reason to put Terminators in a Land Raider - and every reason not to.  They're protected while they're teleporting, they can't reliably assault after hopping out, and on and on. 

 

Also one of the biggest tragedies is that now that we have a Plasma Blaster, we no longer have the Terminator Captain who has one (Captain Invictus from 2E)

 

I'd like to see them go back to the drawing board, and figure out with the iconic fluffy things are in:

List creation

Tabletop tactics

and so on.

 

Then build the rules to allow these things to happen without making them overpowered or inherently flawed. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There’s easy ways to get obsec.

[Captain Idaho]

Well we can only do the best with what we have eh. I do agree as I miss the rules of Captain Invictus because of the impact of the theme.

 

Yeah Assault Transports are sorely missed I must say. Currently I don't think the rules for Land Raiders quite cut it. I'd like to see a T9, damage 3+D3 twin Lascannon beasty like Chaos got.

 

I think a single Land Raider at the back is points inefficient, though can provide valuable fire support (a Devastator Squad and a half) and target saturation if you've got a bunch of Dreadnoughts. 

 

8 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

I think an all terminator and landraider list would be super cool !!!

 

Yeah definitely! Terminators rock! Love their concept.

 

I'm wary of the "Dark Angels do it better" concept but can we make it work? I still think the more powerful Ultramarines 1st Company would utilise other choices as well. Drop podding Sternguard spring to mind, to spike some heavy weapons for the Terminators. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’d bet our landraiders will get a boost like CSM. I said the army would be cool which doesn’t imply all that competitive. 

[Captain Idaho]

Totally! Cool and fun is always superior to competitive in my eyes.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Exactly !!

[Tacitus]

On 2/3/2023 at 1:14 AM, Captain Idaho said:

Well we can only do the best with what we have eh.

Yeah, I just wish they'd give us better.  Each (sub) faction of each faction should have at least two distinctly different lists/styles to play that get a boost for being that subfaction.   UM and Guard could have the All/Mostly Infantry and the All/Mostly Tank list.

 

BA could have Power Infantry and Jumpers vs Termies and Speeders.

 

DA - really should have three boosts - DW only, RW only, DW+RW

 

Wolves would have Infantry vs Dreads and Bikes/Dog sleds, 

 

Scars could do a bike heavy, or a Mechanized heavy with Infantry and Rhinos/Razorbacks/Impulsors

 

Iyanden can do Wraith heavy, or Pirates/elf heavy.  Saim Hann would have their Wild Rider list and so on. 

[Captain Idaho]

So I'm thinking of starting with the leadership of the 1st Company. The theme starts here with most armies, so let's talk about the Captain:

 

Captain

 

Looking to the leadership is the centre of any theme, so when not taking Guilliman or Calgar thus is the Company Avatar. The first guy most people will look for when they see the army arrayed on the table.

 

For this reason, there's really only 2 characters that fit the theme... a Terminator Captain and Primaris Captain with Relic Shield. Why the Relic Shield? Because he matches the theme of Bladeguard who are 1st Company Primaris!

 

Whilst a Jump Pack Captain, or Biker Captain, would be feasible as he can choose to do what he likes after all, your Terminators will look down upon a Captain with smaller muscles!

 

However, that's not to say you shouldn't whack a Jump Pack on a Captain in an army with loads of Vanguard, for example. So I will detail what I consider appropriate thematic choices as well (your opinion is welcome to vary and let's post it up!), starting with...:

 

Terminator Captain

 

Give this guy either a classic Storm Bolter/twin bolter (same thing in 40K) and blade of some sort and say it's a Relic Blade, or a Thunder Hammer.

 

The Relic Blade is an obvious choice. It basically saves on a Relic slot (name is coincidental I'm sure!) and will be a threat to most targets.

 

The Thunder Hammer, especially now Armour of Contempt has gone, is deadly. The hardest targets have an Invulnerable save anyway, so often you're not suffering from the "meagre" AP-2. I must warn that wading into a Marine or 2+ save squad single handed is risky however, as you can be slowed down or even be overwhelmed.

 

Off hand is either a gun or a Storm Shield. If you want survivability, go for the 1+ armour save. Ultramarines characters can be quite survivable with their Relics, taking many opponents by surprise.

 

Gun is either gonna be cheap and a Storm Bolter (an upgrade Relic later if desired) or a combi weapon, likely a combi Melta as it is the biggest bang for your buck, pun not intended.

 

Relics: Vengeance of Ultramar if you want your Storm Bolter to do some damage and surprise folk. Combining this with Paragon of War will net a few Mortal Wounds over a turn but it will be chip damage mostly.

 

Thr Armour of Konor or Shield Eternal will boost up his survivability which you can combine with Iron Resolve for a fairly tough character to take down. If you have Storm Shield you can go with the Tarentian Cloak to cheekily heal D3 wounds a turn which is annoying.

 

The Warlord Trait you use should combine with the Relic and wargear choice in my view. It's nice to use Master of Strategy on a Terminator block whilst hanging in the Devastator Doctrine sometimes, but mostly your 1st Company will be operating in the Tactical Doctrine rather than the combined arms Ultramarines lists that might stick in the Devastator Doctrine for longer.

 

So Iron Resolve when wanting to be tenacious, netting an extra wound and resistance. Imperium's Sword if you're planning on a cheeky charge from Teleport strike using a Commanding Oratory play. Paragon of War if you're planning on lots of attacks with a Vengeance of Ultramar build, but this is the decidedly 3rd choice.

 

My advice? Go for Iron Resolve and be frustrating! Storm Shields with a 2+ save will mean massed AP-1 isn't the threat it might be to other characters.

 

A note on twin Lightning Claws... don't waste your time. Thematically it doesn't add to the army and D1 and AP-2 is just weak against some of the tougher denizens of the 41st millennium.

[Tacitus]

I'd go with the Bladguard Captain though I'll also point out the improved Gravis Captain with Gravis Fighting Styles are also fitting here - he's going to match better with the Bladeguard LT which is your only real choice in the LT slot.  Unless you're DA you don't have a Terminator Apothecary, Champion etc - so you have to get the chapter command from Primaris if you want it to fit.   While transporting now is well... bad it might not always be so.  Of course they could let anybody on a Land Raider in the next edition too so this doesn't matter much.  Another reason I'd go Bladeguard is the 4++ and 4+++ (Relic Shields have a 50/50 vs Mortal Wounds).   I'm hoping 10th edition gives all the Stormshield capable Captains a Relic Shield instead.

 

But I'm assuming you're going fluffy/fun here - so Bladeguard Cap/LT, Terminator Chaplain or Libby.  Primaris/Bladeguard Apothecary and Ancient (You could go Terminator Ancient but again he just doesn't have the synergy with bladeguard).   But that'll get you a nice little bladeguard unit that could run around in an Impulsor with it's own 5++ - but then again Transporting is bad.  That said, Cap, LT, Bladeguard Squad and Ancient entitles you to 5 Impulsors, and 5 Impulsors with the Icarus BRRRRRRT array is kind of funny and scary - especially if you want to flood the target bracket for a Land Raider or Repulsor or two, going heavy tank support.   One of the nice things is that Ultras have always been Tactical Veterans in addition to Terminators (BA got Vanguard Vets (then known as Veteran Assault Squads) first, DA stayed Termie only, Ultras got Veteran Space Marine Squads.  And we don't have the special rules you see DA having, the main difference between our Vets and our 2nd Company is a white helmet, so you could paint just about anything Elite or HS with a white helmet and get away with it, especially in Primaris.  I kind of choke on the idea of "Oh no, you're far too experienced to carry around a heavy weapon in a Devastator Squad against this assault of Traitor Guard Tanks.  Grab a Bolter and your Tacticus Armor instead of a melta rifle and your Gravis Armor.  Those are only for the rookies really advanced rookies.". 

 

We should wrap our head around the fluff paradigm changing too.  Phobos are scouty, but nothing says they're rookies fresh off the geneseed.  In fact, they've said experienced marines will don the Phobos armor if the situation warrants. 

[Captain Idaho]

I'm going to cover the Primaris Captain next up, well my opinion anyway.

 

It wouldn't be a 1st Company theme if we take non-1st Company choices, so phobos armour is out as far as I am concerned.

 

I'd also say Gravis armour doesn't speak of the theme, though it be justified to have one accompanying Bladeguard much more than Phobos armour.

 

To me though, the theme is highlighted based on who the Captain accompanies. If you got Bladeguard, I'd say a Relic Shield Primaris Captain fits the theme. Vanguard Veterans and a Jump Pack Captain matches. I'd even say lots of Veteran Intercessors or Sternguard and the match is power armour with Master-Crafted bolter etc.

 

We don't have to add a character which is the same as the troops around him but we should consider it strongly. Theme is everything in 1st Company in the same way 10th Company requires it. Otherwise it's just a Space Marine list!

[Tacitus]

I'm not sure a Primaris Only Indomitus Founding Chapter would have a 1st company entirely consisting of Veteran Intercessors and Bladeguard. 

 

I also see what they're doing with Gravis.  Its essentially the Primaris Terminator Armor.  Aggressors - short range dakka with power fists on a tougher sturdier platform.  Terminators Short Range Dakka with Power Fists on a tougher sturdier platform.  Veteran X units - Terminators wearing power armor instead.  Aggresors - regular (primaris) marines wearing Terminator Armor instead.  Gravis is the Veteran Squad injection in reverse: instead of Terminators make expert regulars, its regulars make Terminators.   I tend to think the Primaris Only First Companies tend to have a fair number of Aggressors, Eradicators, and Inceptors. 

[Captain Idaho]

Well this Ultramarines specific, so whilst a Successor Chapter might utilise Ultramarines rules, the theme of a 1st Company hinges primarily on Ultramarines here, which is not relevant to Primaris only Chapter with their own theme.

 

Also, Inceptors, Aggressors and Eradicators are not 1st Company troops (Veterans) so can't be included within the theme.

[Tacitus]

12 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Well this Ultramarines specific, so whilst a Successor Chapter might utilise Ultramarines rules, the theme of a 1st Company hinges primarily on Ultramarines here, which is not relevant to Primaris only Chapter with their own theme.

 

Also, Inceptors, Aggressors and Eradicators are not 1st Company troops (Veterans) so can't be included within the theme.

Follow along with me for a minute.  Ultramarine Successors would follow the Codex.  The guy who writes the Codex is personally leading the Ultramarines.  Especially when you double down on Ultramarines still theoretically being shorthanded on Terminator Armor which is why they were fielding Veteran Space Marines Squads that became Sternguard Squads.   That's the fluff reason.  The game reason is I think they're taking Gravis Armor and working it backwards from Terminator Armor.  The Devastator Sergeant started as a scout, grew into a Devastator, grew into an Assault Marine, grew into a Tactical Marine, grew into the Devastator Sergeant grew into the Terminator Squad Heavy Weapon guy.  Then the Terminator, then the Terminator Sergeant, then the Lieutenant, then the Captain.  In theory.  Whereas they're turning Gravis into a wargear upgrade.  Technically Aggresors are Heavy Support Marines (Devs, Hellbalsters, etc) - and I'd only be surprised at a stealth change from that to assault or Elite because it would shock me GW is paying that close of attention - who don Gravis Armor and become Aggresors or Eradicators.  From what I've heard it's the same dudes, they just get dressed in a different suit.   It feels like they're turning the Heavy Armor from less of a Graduation Present into more of a Mission Constraints package.  I smell video game behind that somewhat.   I do expect them to do something with the Gravis and First Company - probably in 11th or 12th if they haven't seen enough of these first Company/ 10th company posts.  And I expect them to do something with Aggressors.  With Eradicators around, they can afford to move them to a Fast Attack shoulderpad - and they really fit in better with the Assault Cents anyway. 

[Captain Idaho]

It doesn't really matter what they do in the future; a First Company Ultramarines army consists of Veterans. If the unit isn't a Veteran, then it doesn't make the list.

[Captain Idaho]

Hey all, so I'll add some more thoughts on a Captain build for those of us who want to use Primaris models over Firstborn in Terminator Armour.

 

Whilst a Captain can wear and equip what he likes, the theme is important. A Phobos Captain is out in that case, whilst a Captain in MKX is going to need to have a Relic Shield and Sword to match Bladeguard (theme theme theme.

 

I can see Primaris Gravis Captains amongst the Bladeguard though, as he feels big and imposing which actually feels like it is thematic.

 

Relics and wargear... if in Gravis armour well I think it's required to give him a better weapon. Teeth of Terra seems like the best idea as a boltstorm gauntlet covers higher strength requirements. The necessity of a decent weapon means giving a Gravis Captain another Relic isn't feasible, as really the boltstorm gauntlet is quite average. Sadly.

 

A Captain with Relic Shield and Master-Crafted power sword is similarly average in combat really, but remember upgrading to the Burning Blade isn't necessarily going to boost him up much further. It's needed really since S5 is close to average, but is a little disappointing to a stock power fist.

 

I think skipping the Relic Shield Captain is ultimately going to be the best choice as he's slow, alright at killing infantry in combat but really average compared to what else you can get.

 

Gravis Captains are tougher, still require a transport or careful placement but are also better armed. I'd go with that over the "Bladeguard Captain".

 

If you're taking an Repulsor then he's obviously getting inside. Failing that, marching up the table with Bladeguard in Impulsors is the alternative. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Captain Idaho

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Remember the relic Captain ignores mortal wounds on a 4+ due to the shield so versus certain factions he could be actually more survivable and you could boost him with the Santic Halo as well… same thing regarding the Gravis Captain of course in regards to the relic.

[Tacitus]

9 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Remember the relic Captain ignores mortal wounds on a 4+ due to the shield so versus certain factions he could be actually more survivable and you could boost him with the Santic Halo as well… same thing regarding the Gravis Captain of course in regards to the relic.

If I was going with the Relic Captain, I'd give him the burning blade over a defensive relic.  The Gravis Captain is more likely to need/want the defensive relic, especially since Gravis Fighting Styles may not work on a relic replacement for the Chainsword, Power sword or Fist (And he already has a sort-of-fist-that-doesn't-count in his Boltstorm Gaunt - while the BGV Cap is missing the high S attack.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You could also give the relic Captain Angel’s Artifice.

[Captain Idaho]

Yes upgrading to Chapter Master is something I haven't touched upon directly as I'd consider that to be for army construction, but you're right the Angel's Artiface would be delicious on a Gravis Captain to boost to T6. 

 

I consider defensive Relics being ideally suited to a 1st Company Captain with better offensive weapons so he doesn't hit weakly. Having high strength feels necessary.

 

It's possible to make the Boltstorm Gauntlet or Power Fist Master-Crafted, thus the extra strength hits harder at D3. This could be crucial.

 

Would work on the power sword considering the extra 2 attacks it grants. However, if you're talking Master-Crafted on the power sword, you're better off giving a Gravis 1st Captain the Chainsword and then the Teeth of Terra. More attacks and same Strength and damage, for the cost of a single AP.

 

So if you wanted a good all rounder then I'd consider adding Master-Crafted to the Boltstorm Gauntlet and taking the power sword. You can smash things with a S8, damage 3 weapon or blend things with 7 attacks (more with Shock Assault etc) at S5 and AP-3.

 

And ultimately, if he's the 1st Captain he needs to be scary! So for this reason, the more imposing Gravis model and offensive capacity on the table wins out vs the Relic Shield Captain, in my view.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’d take Armor Indomnitus for the Gravis Captain for the sweet 2+ save.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh you'd have to go full Angel's Artiface (your first suggestion) as it gives a 2+ save AND +1 wound and Toughness. 

 

But of course the Armour Indomitus does add to the wounds and can be used for a cheeky 3+ Invulnerable as well.

 

Which is quite fitting as being hard to put down is thematic for an Ultramarines 1st Company Captain as we need to consider playing to the old theme of the Battle of Maccragge which had them holding on against insurmountable odds.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I remember one time vs thousand sons I ran my Captain on point - he had the relic shield and a sweet sweet 4+ shrug. He weathered all their smites that turn and I ended up overruning his lines. Sometimes the choices are all about your meta.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh definitely. But I often speak from a take all comers position I guess.

 

(Not that I ever make a 4+ save to save my life)