Wh40k 10th Edition Weapons in 10th

[spessmarine]

11 hours ago, ZeroWolf said:

I'm pretty sure that's how AoS works and it's done pretty well over there. 

It is simpler there because of much more restricted wargear customization.

Best case example might be Dreadnoughts, you could have 0, 1, or 2 dedicated melee weapons. The flat attacks characteristic for the weapon of choice works fine here, as you picked a weapon you had or the default weapon and made all your attacks with it. Does 2 melee weapons give you twice as many attacks as 1? So 1 melee weapon would have a lower attacks value than before to account for cases of doubled up melee weapons. Which gets tricky to balance as it may get swingy, either none or 2 fists,

 

Edit: Though, giving some thought, yeah maybe that would be best. Double melee didn't feel as big of a jump over mixed loadout as it should have. Rather than pick fist or claw, it makes more sense for a double melee dread to wallop into something with both. Mixed loadout should be worse as a tradeoff for versatility.

Edited April 16, 2023 by spessmarine

[Lemondish]

1 hour ago, spessmarine said:

Though, giving some thought, yeah maybe that would be best. Double melee didn't feel as big of a jump over mixed loadout as it should have. Rather than pick fist or claw, it makes more sense for a double melee dread to wallop into something with both. Mixed loadout should be worse as a tradeoff for versatility.

Edited 54 minutes ago by spessmarine

The way they handled the double fists on the Aggressors suggests to me that two of the same melee weapon will just confer the twin-linked effect.

[spessmarine]

41 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

The way they handled the double fists on the Aggressors suggests to me that two of the same melee weapon will just confer the twin-linked effect.

But how would say fist + hammer or whatever work? Because if you get say, 3 attacks per weapon, paired fist gives you 3 attacks twin-linked while mixed gives 6 attacks total by 3-and-3 and that would be always the better choice.
I guess we'll find out soon enough how GW does it, but variable melee weapons looks like it'll be a sticky balancing issue. Wonder if they will pare back melee options into generics then (everything is a Dreadnought CCW) ala Intercessor guns.

[MedicMike0708]

On 4/14/2023 at 11:22 AM, Triszin said:

Hammerhead rail cannon Is str 20

 

Not the strongest gun in the game..

 

 

Contenders:

Votann: magna rail cannon

Necron: doom gun

Knights: volcano lance

shadowsword volcano cannon is probably in that peer group as well. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, spessmarine said:

But how would say fist + hammer or whatever work? Because if you get say, 3 attacks per weapon, paired fist gives you 3 attacks twin-linked while mixed gives 6 attacks total by 3-and-3 and that would be always the better choice.
I guess we'll find out soon enough how GW does it, but variable melee weapons looks like it'll be a sticky balancing issue. Wonder if they will pare back melee options into generics then (everything is a Dreadnought CCW) ala Intercessor guns.

Each weapon confers a number of attacks, they can say TH A-2 PF A-1

 

but maybe I’m just ignorant…but where would this even be a problem?

[Blurf]

1 hour ago, spessmarine said:

But how would say fist + hammer or whatever work? Because if you get say, 3 attacks per weapon, paired fist gives you 3 attacks twin-linked while mixed gives 6 attacks total by 3-and-3 and that would be always the better choice.
I guess we'll find out soon enough how GW does it, but variable melee weapons looks like it'll be a sticky balancing issue. Wonder if they will pare back melee options into generics then (everything is a Dreadnought CCW) ala Intercessor guns.

You won't get 3 attacks per weapon is the obvious answer to that question. By putting twin linked on doubled up weapons, I very much doubt double profiles will be anywhere near as common as they are now.

[Marshal Mittens]

I suspect that most infantry carried AT weapons will suck for part/all of 10e so that you need a vehicle to deal with enemy vehicles, giving people a reason to buy a bunch of vehicles that has not existed since 7th or earlier. If vehicles can have up to 20S and 14T, but most infantry AT is like S8-S10, people will need tanks to deal with tanks. Which let's them sell lots of kits.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Marshal Mittens

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

14 minutes ago, Marshal Mittens said:

I suspect that most infantry carried AT weapons will suck for part/all of 10e so that you need a vehicle to deal with enemy vehicles, giving people a reason to buy a bunch of vehicles that has not existed since 7th or earlier. If vehicles can have up to 20S and 14T, but most infantry AT is like S8-S10, people will need tanks to deal with tanks. Which let's them sell lots of kits.

Good thing I already have some vehicles!

[Interrogator Stobz]

The Tread Head in me Approves.

If 10th lasts long enough I may even get some more... the HH ones look 'shiny'.

[Lord Blacksteel]

The 2022 CSM Codex gives us an example of melee weapon consolidation - swords/axes/mauls/lightning claws become "Accursed Weapons", power fists are a separate thing, and thunder hammers are a separate thing. I'd say that's a pretty good model for what we are going to see for most armies.

 

That said they do not have to stay consistent with that approach across different units. Someone mentioned Sanguinary Guard earlier in the thread and that they would just have power weapons - well, maybe, but they could also have "Encarmine Weapons" with a different statline as they are a special unit for Blood Angels, not just a generic assault squad or veteran squad. Some things will be consolidated but not all things. 

 

I am curious how they handle models with multiple weapon options. Ironclad dreadnoughts and Helbrutes, for example, have multiple melee weapons with different statlines and as someone mentioned above you can take one, two, two different, or none of them on any given model so twin-linking is not an answer here unless all of those statlines get merged - it's certainly possible but I don't know they would go that route on single-unit models like a dreadnought.

[MagicHat]

1 hour ago, Lord Blacksteel said:

The 2022 CSM Codex gives us an example of melee weapon consolidation - swords/axes/mauls/lightning claws become "Accursed Weapons", power fists are a separate thing, and thunder hammers are a separate thing. I'd say that's a pretty good model for what we are going to see for most armies.

 

That said they do not have to stay consistent with that approach across different units. Someone mentioned Sanguinary Guard earlier in the thread and that they would just have power weapons - well, maybe, but they could also have "Encarmine Weapons" with a different statline as they are a special unit for Blood Angels, not just a generic assault squad or veteran squad. Some things will be consolidated but not all things. 

 

I am curious how they handle models with multiple weapon options. Ironclad dreadnoughts and Helbrutes, for example, have multiple melee weapons with different statlines and as someone mentioned above you can take one, two, two different, or none of them on any given model so twin-linking is not an answer here unless all of those statlines get merged - it's certainly possible but I don't know they would go that route on single-unit models like a dreadnought.

 

One possible option would be giving each weapon a low amount of A, and give the model a special rule granting an extra amount of attacks with any carried weapon.

 

Like a helbrute have:

TH 1 A

PF 1 A

Scourge 2 A.

Special rule: Model have 3 extra A it can allocate to any of its weapons.

[spessmarine]

On 4/16/2023 at 6:34 PM, Marshal Mittens said:

I suspect that most infantry carried AT weapons will suck for part/all of 10e so that you need a vehicle to deal with enemy vehicles, giving people a reason to buy a bunch of vehicles that has not existed since 7th or earlier. If vehicles can have up to 20S and 14T, but most infantry AT is like S8-S10, people will need tanks to deal with tanks. Which let's them sell lots of kits.

The main concern for vehicle balance I think is firing ports. Could lead to mobile bunker simulator.

I think it is good we haven't seen too much anti-X, handing out the juicy stuff too much is usually where an edition heads downhill. I think there will be very defined roles for some units/gear to really emphasize being the best for a certain task rather than good-against-all stuff from the past.

Chainfists being a good example, in the past they weren't that much better at their role. But now even with a tank rolling in with T12, you are still wounding it on a 3+. Oath of Moment with your Terminators and it is, 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound and reroll both. Opponents need to be real careful with their tanks because terminators that reach them will force quite a lot of saving throws.

Likewise, things like Haywire will probably make for some real nasty anti-tank. The tricky part is, if there is too much anti-tank, then no one takes tanks, and if there is an absence of anti-tank, then tank spam. The middle ground is hard to balance.

[Dr. Clock]

10 hours ago, MagicHat said:

One possible option would be giving each weapon a low amount of A, and give the model a special rule granting an extra amount of attacks with any carried weapon.

I think that would kind of defeat the purpose of moving the A stat to the weapons, though?

 

But sure, if you want to make it a bit punchier into crowds give it a couple damage 1 'crushing feet' attacks that even Mortis dreads can use ; )

 

On 4/16/2023 at 6:04 PM, Lemondish said:

The way they handled the double fists on the Aggressors suggests to me that two of the same melee weapon will just confer the twin-linked effect.

 

That's understandable, but it's not quite the same thing. For Aggressors the fists are 'non-negotiable' standard armaments, whereas dreads and equivalents have options even as to what goes on each fist in terms of 'sidearm'. It's of course perfectly possible that 'pair of fists' is available as a '2-slot twin-linked option', but I'd bet that it'll have at least 1 or 2 more attacks than a single fist even if it does pick up twin-linked.

 

I'm pretty sure that especially for vehicles, the numerous ways you can 'end up' with 2 of the same gun on a chassis won't just mean that there's never any incentive to take the same gun in 2 available slots. Like... if I put a heavy bolter in the hull and turret of a chimera does that equate to a single twin-linked? Likely not, as they are independently firing weapons. Same thing most likely if a pair of multi-meltas on a dreadnought are an option, or if you take heavy bolter sponsons. But anything that 'come as twin-linked' when they're chosen will likely default to the new re-roll instead of doubling shots/A.

 

It looks like they're leaning into the idea that 'all options for a unit should be about the same value' so that points can be simplified, and this suggests that for something like a dreadnought each 'available slot' should have very near the same general output potential under ideal conditions. That on its own means that I'd expect melee A or WS numbers to tend above shooting weapons just on the sheer difficulty of getting dedicated melee units into attack position.

 

Anyway - so many unknowns - trying not to think too hard about it lol

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

[Emperor Ming]

That gw article states the age of plasma killing everything is over

 

Ten plasma hellblasters with a lieutenant in rapid fire range, rerolling hits and wounds, then six's to hit are auto wounds

 

I care to disagree

Edited April 19, 2023 by Emperor Ming

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

That gw article states the age of plasma killing everything is over

 

Ten plasma hellblasters with a lieutenant in rapid fire range, rerolling hits and wounds, hen six's to hit are auto wounds

 

I care to disagree

If they’re wounding on 5s that’s still probably not a lot of damage 

[Karhedron]

10 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

If they’re wounding on 5s that’s still probably not a lot of damage 

 

20 shots at BS3+ with rerolls averages 18 hits (3 of which auto wounds).

 

15 hits wounding on 5s with rerolls averages 8 saving throws needed (plus the 3 from earlier).  There is a lot we do not know yet but if that is still AP-4 and 2 Damage then that is a dead Repulsor right there with some damage to spare.

 

Granted you have used a once-per-turn ability to get the kill but squashing large priority targets is exactly what Oath of Moment is meant for. I am going to wait and see before declaring the age of plasma to be over. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

2 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

That gw article states the age of plasma killing everything is over

 

Ten plasma hellblasters with a lieutenant in rapid fire range, rerolling hits and wounds, hen six's to hit are auto wounds

 

I care to disagree

Have we even seen the 10th edition plasma incinerator line? I forget

[brother_b]

So the new terminator librarian has a force axe but the profile is force weapon. They are going generic this next edition in at least some regards. 

[BluejayJunior]

It was the same with power weapons, so no big surprise force weapons are the same. I'm guessing Sanguinary Guard will have just Encarmine Weapons. It also appears that combi weapons have been consolidated as well. 

[Kallas]

21 minutes ago, brother_b said:

So the new terminator librarian has a force axe but the profile is force weapon. They are going generic this next edition in at least some regards. 

Also worth noting that the Combi-Weapon profile is very different.

24" 1x [RF1] 4/0/1 with [Anti-Infantry 4+, Devastating Wounds] (and if Leading a unit [Sustained Hits 1])

 

They're combining a lot of stuff, which is ultimately a good thing, but interesting to see it have AI 4+ and Devastating Wounds outright.

[brother_b]

I’m interested in how they’ll do mining weapons for GSC. Potential to make the weapons generic, like they did with aberrants. Also a chance the specific melee weapons will get “anti-x”. We’ll see soon enough it seems.

[Lemondish]

1 hour ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Have we even seen the 10th edition plasma incinerator line? I forget

Nope. I don't think we've seen a single plasma weapon thus far.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Combis got the nerf bat hard. D1 means they won't kill one Astartes per turn.

In isolation ofc. 

[Lemondish]

10 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Combis got the nerf bat hard. D1 means they won't kill one Astartes per turn.

In isolation ofc. 

Yeah, assuming this is not an incomplete profile with a ton more missing context, then this is a solid enough read of the situation.

 

Force Weapon consolidation lands middle of the road for Str between the current axe, stave, and sword options, and towards the low end for AP. Not too bad a nerf overall.

 

 

[Cruor Vault]

I'm thinking this combi-weapon profile might be an error?  Its strange they previewed the new Primaris Sternguard with mulitple Combi weapons and showed them fighting a Screamer killer with them when the new profile would do very little against a monster.

 

If we assume it's a mistake it sure looks a LOT like what a 10th edition Volkite Caliver might do.....