Wh40k 10th Edition Space Marine Index

[jimbo1701]

I’m still wading my way through it so maybe someone who has the answers can help me:

 

- veteran intercessors now gone right?

- all alternate build weapons on intercessors / heavy intercessors / hellblasters / eradicators now gone also right (the assault / normal / heavy versions) 

- dreadnought and venerable dreadnought now one and the same? 
 

TIA

[Medicinal Carrots]

2 minutes ago, jimbo1701 said:

I’m still wading my way through it so maybe someone who has the answers can help me:

 

- veteran intercessors now gone right?

- all alternate build weapons on intercessors / heavy intercessors / hellblasters / eradicators now gone also right (the assault / normal / heavy versions) 

- dreadnought and venerable dreadnought now one and the same? 
 

TIA

Yep, yep, and yep

[Squark]

2 minutes ago, jimbo1701 said:

I’m still wading my way through it so maybe someone who has the answers can help me:

 

- veteran intercessors now gone right?

- all alternate build weapons on intercessors / heavy intercessors / hellblasters / eradicators now gone also right (the assault / normal / heavy versions) 

- dreadnought and venerable dreadnought now one and the same? 
 

TIA

1) Yes. They were kind of a stopgap unit that's now obselete.

2) Yes, they've been merged together.

3) Also yes.

[Orange Knight]

Let's look at the positives:

 

A lot of units are really exciting, and the character combinations open up a lot of powerful rules. 

 

I think all the Captain types are actually worth taking, as are all the Librarians, Chaplains, Lieutenants, etc. There are already quite a few combinations that really stand out, and could be the focus of entire lists.

 

There is also a lot of synergy with various non character units, such as the Storm-speeders and modifying dice. There are now quite a few models I never considered buying in the past that I'm eyeing up. Obviously I don't want to go too crazy as the codex will be out in a few months and things are bound to change.

 

The Vanguard Veterans have seen a vast streamlining and reduction in weapon option, but I noticed that the regular old Assault Marines were not subject to the same thing. I'm very confident that the Vanguard are about to receive a Sternguard-like Rubicon upgrade. It would really round off the range.

 

Units that REALLY stand out to me:

 

-Gravis Captain 

-Lieutenant 

-Phobos Librarian

-Apothecary 

-Terminator Chaplain 

-Terminators

-Bladeguard 

-Eradicators 

-Gladiator Variants

-Storm Speeder Variants

-Landraider

-Desolation Squad

-Hellblasters 

-Outriders

 

Named Characters from various chapters:

 

-Tor Garadon 

-Lysander 

-Calgar 

-Uriel Ventris

-Guilliman 

-Feirros

 

I think the Salamander characters are brilliant, as is Shrike. I just think they are let down by the units they can join, or lack there of. Shrike can still join Assault and Vanguard at least.

[Orange Knight]

On a more negative note, take a look at this silly stack of cards.

 

I don't know what GW will do or when, but they definitely have to do something and soon. This can't be the faction they expect new players will be jumping into with ease and simplicity. 

 

 

[CL_Mission]

That can't all be marine though, right?

[Orange Knight]

It's all Marines....

[Chainsword Cookie]

My first impression is that a Primaris-only army has more synergies than a Firstborn one. The divide will come with the points, but as it is, I see no reason to invest in Firstborn kits, save for those chapter specific.

[Scribe]

3 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

It's all Marines....

 

The End Stage of "Just keep making Loyalist Marines." 

[Karhedron]

20 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The Vanguard Veterans have seen a vast streamlining and reduction in weapon option, but I noticed that the regular old Assault Marines were not subject to the same thing. I'm very confident that the Vanguard are about to receive a Sternguard-like Rubicon upgrade. It would really round off the range.

 

I actually think the opposite. If you look at the melee weapon profiles of the Assault Squad, they have one more attack each than most Firstborn. The regular squad members have 4 Chainsword attacks and even the Eviscerator has 3. This is 2 more than their 9th edition profiles.

 

Most Marines have gotten +1A to represent Shock Assault being rolled into their profiles but it looks to me as if the Assault Squad has the Primaris Attack profile rolled in as well. All that is missing is the armour keyword.

[Marshal Mittens]

I like that the champion seems to be in the codex. Overall, it's looking interesting. 

[Stargate_wars]

6 hours ago, CCE1981 said:

Techmarine and Servitors attached to Intercessors / Tactical Squad, Primaris/firstborn dependent, adding 2 Heavy Weapons to a Squad...uhmm nice!

 

Incorrect, Servitors can only join units led by a Techmarine not Primaris Techmarine as they only have Primaris Techmarine keyword and not Techmarine keyword.

[DemonGSides]

18 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

On a more negative note, take a look at this silly stack of cards.

 

I don't know what GW will do or when, but they definitely have to do something and soon. This can't be the faction they expect new players will be jumping into with ease and simplicity. 

 

 

 

The amount is nuts, but you'll probably never be bringing more than a handful of cards to any fight regardless of faction.

 

Of course sorting through and FINDING those cards is another story lol.

 

Has anyone discerned any rhyme or reason behind how the units are organized in the index or is it still a bit of a free for all?

[Marshal Reinhard]

16 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

On a more negative note, take a look at this silly stack of cards.

 

I don't know what GW will do or when, but they definitely have to do something and soon. This can't be the faction they expect new players will be jumping into with ease and simplicity. 

 

 

 

The absurd amount of marine units is then exasperated by GW insisting that every vehicle needs to have a sheet per main armament of most vehicles. There's not one stormspeeder, there's 3. Not one gladiator, etc.

[Orange Knight]

@Karhedron

 

You might be right.

 

Either way, I think they need to wrap the generic Primaris up and start focusing in chapter specific kits for the next few years.

 

-Primaris Jump Captain

-Primaris Vanguard/Assault Squad

-Updated Assault Terminators

-Updated Scouts

 

No more please! Lol

[jimbo1701]

26 minutes ago, CL_Mission said:

That can't all be marine though, right?

I feel this should be an anakin / padme meme. 

[CCE1981]

12 minutes ago, Stargate_wars said:

Incorrect, Servitors can only join units led by a Techmarine not Primaris Techmarine as they only have Primaris Techmarine keyword and not Techmarine keyword.

Overlooked that on the Primaris Techmarine.  Well that is still a 15-man tactical squad with 3 heavy weapons hitting on 3s, with two ablative wounds you really don't care about.

[Captain Idaho]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

On a more negative note, take a look at this silly stack of cards.

 

I don't know what GW will do or when, but they definitely have to do something and soon. This can't be the faction they expect new players will be jumping into with ease and simplicity. 

 

 

 

Blimey GW... what is going on with you guys?

 

I do recall questioning the usefulness etc of these cards and the reaction that prompted...

 

Ah, sweet vindication. You taste as good as you did after the combi weapons debate as well. And the "Eldar being borked" debate too.

 

[Dried]

I don't understand something. When I have different toughness in the same unit (ATC in outriders, calgar with his Citrix) what toughness value so I use for the wound roll (done before allocating the attack)?

Can't find it in the rules.

[Captain Idaho]

Anyhooo 

 

Landspeeders generating free Mortal Wounds for flying over units, then shooting things, that's a big win.

 

I need some bikers I think as Attack Bikes getting free shooting...

 

Overall, I think much of the Index is competitive. Firstborn and Primaris alike.

 

A little lame Sternguard can't be joined by Firstborn characters, but frankly they suck in melee and I'd rather Assault Marines now anyway.

[Emperor Ming]

While I disliked power levels, at least they were on the datasheet so you could get started 

 

Give us the pts already!

[Evil Eye]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

 "like how we've got Orange Knight persistently lobbying for the removal of Firstborn units, GW wants that but they don't want the backlash."

 

you're a funny guy, what can I say?

He's not wrong. Orange Knight has a history of suggesting that the Space Marine roster is bloated (which it is) and the solution is to remove Firstborn entirely despite the problem being caused by the introduction of mechanically redundant new units that fail at even being straight updates to the classic units.

 

Generally speaking, if additions to a system (whatever that may be) make it worse, you remove the additions before removing any core elements in order to fix things. This isn't limited to wargames either; if you have an armoured vehicle of some form equipped with a main gun and one or two auxiliary weapons, and it's been reliable for years with this basic configuration, if you decide to modernize it with new features including two more auxiliary weapons that provide no real improvement to its ability to perform its intended role, and the modernization programme makes it perform worse in part due to the requirement to stow more ammunition for secondary weapons of marginal use, if you were to make further alterations to fix this problem you wouldn't remove the reliable and effective main gun to make room for more ammo for those secondary weapons- you'd strip back the additional systems that had been implemented in the problematic "upgrade" until the vehicle worked as intended again, starting with the useless extra weapons. You might keep the improved environmental controls and new IED protection system because they add something genuinely beneficial to the vehicle, but you wouldn't trade out the main armament of the vehicle for 2 new machine-gun stations that the crew are barely able to use and require a different ammunition standard to the existing machine-guns, which are supposedly more advanced but provide no real benefit over the tried and true munitions already in use.

 

The parallels are quite similar actually- thanks to the writing of the new rules, you have new, more "advanced" models of debatable appeal over their classic brethren that are not fully compatible with the existing range for no very good reason (seriously, why can a Primaris Chaplain not lead a Firstborn squad? Why does there even need to be a rules difference between a Primaris and Firstborn Chaplain at this point given the levels of homogenization we've seen elsewhere?) and are replacing core parts of the original range with alternatives that do not fully match up to their original counterparts at all, and instead of reducing redundancies by combining datasheets in such a way that a datasheet can represent either (for example, I'd be happy if they rolled Intercessors into the Tactical Squad datasheet such that you can run all-Firstborn, all-Primaris or mixed squads with zero impact on actual gameplay- an Intercessor Squad currently just being a Tactical Squad that can't take special weapons seems very redundant and given the trend for abstraction of wargear, I see no reason why Primaris and Firstborn boltguns need to be different) you have Orange Knight and others suggesting you effectively trade the main gun for some extra machine-guns with incompatible ammo. And ironically the reason why GW is pushing this is the same reason the manufacturer of such a hypothetical new MG would push this- they get to sell new hardware and force everyone to adopt their thing as the standard, thus meaning everyone has to upgrade their fleet to keep up, and making Guns Workstation a lot of money in the process, even if the soldiers in the field absolutely hate the new gun and would much rather have the reliable previous model.

 

I also feel they really could condense the bloated datasheets by simply condensing a lot of them into a single sheet with different wargear options. For the Chaplain for example, you could easily just have a Chaplain datasheet that looks something like this:

CHAPLAIN:
[Chaplain profile]

[Terminator Chaplain profile]

[Chaplain on bike profile]

[Chaplain with jump pack profile]

"The Chaplain is equipped with a Crozius Arcanum and Bolt Pistol."

WARGEAR OPTIONS:
"The Chaplain may replace his bolt pistol with [options here]"

"The Chaplain may take a bike- he gains the Mounted keyword and uses the Chaplain on bike profile above."

OR

"The Chaplain may take a jump pack- he gains the Fly and Jump Pack keywords and uses the Chaplain with jump pack profile above."

"The Chaplain may take Terminator Armour- he gains the Terminator keyword and uses the Terminator Chaplain profile above, and replaces his bolt pistol with a storm bolter."

"A Chaplain in Terminator Armour may replace his Storm Bolter with [options here]"

"The Chaplain may take one of the following abilities in addition to Litany of Hate: [the different additional abilities that each Chaplain has]"

 

Honestly, this sort of "open-ended" datasheet seems like a much better option. More flexible, more permitting of both conversions and older minis without making those necessities, and whilst yes the individual datasheet is bigger, it's not hopelessly complicated or confusing, and certainly preferable to five separate datasheets.

[bigtrouble]

14 minutes ago, Dried said:

I don't understand something. When I have different toughness in the same unit (ATC in outriders, calgar with his Citrix) what toughness value so I use for the wound roll (done before allocating the attack)?

Can't find it in the rules.

It’s on page 39. You target the bodyguard unit first, then the character. It would appear there are no mixed toughness units otherwise.

[Dried]

There isn't any bodyguards in my example and it has mixed toughness. Maybe an error of my French version?

Edited June 9, 2023 by Dried

[bigtrouble]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

On a more negative note, take a look at this silly stack of cards.

 

I don't know what GW will do or when, but they definitely have to do something and soon. This can't be the faction they expect new players will be jumping into with ease and simplicity. 

 

 

Used to be pages in a book, so I’m good with this. Also, you can’t field more than maybe a dozen unit types at a time realistically. I don’t understand the negative here. 12 cards vs. 3 large books?