Wh40k 10th Edition Munitorum Field Manual (Points)

[Squark]

6 minutes ago, The Spitehorde said:

Not happy at the fixed unit sizes at all. Did the people that came up with the points talk to the people that came up with the indexes at all? I only ask as according to the former I can take between 2 and 9 'zerkers in a squad with their champ whilst the latter says it's got to be a total of 5 or 10.

 

Is Khan being just 95 point another "mistake" as well? That's a heck of a drop from the 140 he used to be. 

GW wants you to run characters, and lots of them. Making them cheap is their way of not so subtly encouraging you to do so.

 

The fact that scuttlebutt from people who see GW's corporate documents is that Character Models have the highest profit margin probably has something to do with it.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Squark

[Rain]

13 minutes ago, The Spitehorde said:

Not happy at the fixed unit sizes at all. Did the people that came up with the points talk to the people that came up with the indexes at all? I only ask as according to the former I can take between 2 and 9 'zerkers in a squad with their champ whilst the latter says it's got to be a total of 5 or 10.

 

Is Khan being just 95 point another "mistake" as well? That's a heck of a drop from the 140 he used to be. 

 

You can run between 4 and 9 zerks + champ, but if you run anything over 5 dudes, you pay the full cost for 10 dudes. So running anything but 5 or 10 dudes is strictly wrong. It's idiotic. They should have just locked squad sizes instead of this stupid half-measure.

[Bradeh]

At least we know why certain weapons were toned down now, Combi-Weapons and such. 

[Squark]

2 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

You can run between 4 and 9 zerks + champ, but if you run anything over 5 dudes, you pay the full cost for 10 dudes. So running anything but 5 or 10 dudes is strictly wrong. It's idiotic. They should have just locked squad sizes instead of this stupid half-measure.

Well that's awkward for any kit that doesn't fit nicely into the numbers like Plague Marines...

[The Spitehorde]

It's way past "idiotic" and requires words that would get me banned from this forum in a millisecond to truly describe it.  Out of interest, which PDF is it that says you can run between 5 and 10 but still have to pay for the full ten? 

 

 

[Arkhanist]

18 minutes ago, Dark Legionnare said:

Aye. What always rubbed me the wrong way of this "baby with the bathwater" points approach is how it potentially hurts people with existing collections disproportionately.

Without this system, somebody with an older style tactical squad could enjoy the benefits of having 40-50 points worth of special weapons/sarge equipment to bring other models, units, etc....  Now, they just would just have to have their bolter-pigs w/chainsword sarge eat that 50 points because they are considered the same as a tac squad loaded-for-bear version with a lascannon, special weapon, sarge fist, sarge combi, etc... 

Our local group doesn't have this problem, but I can still feel bad for the door it opens affecting everybody else in the hobby.

 

Oh, I'm pretty sure GW have considered that. The solution is for bobby cheap-squad to buy a shiny new GW ultra-frag-boom squad(TM)! Consume citizen, consume.

[caladancid]

1 minute ago, The Spitehorde said:

It's way past "idiotic" and requires words that would get me banned from this forum in a millisecond to truly describe it.  Out of interest, which PDF is it that says you can run between 5 and 10 but still have to pay for the full ten? 

 

 

I don’t have it in front of me but I think the points sheet says it at the top. 

[Bradeh]

4 minutes ago, The Spitehorde said:

It's way past "idiotic" and requires words that would get me banned from this forum in a millisecond to truly describe it.  Out of interest, which PDF is it that says you can run between 5 and 10 but still have to pay for the full ten? 

 

 

 

Quote

Rich from the Studio says: “Unit sizes are now much easier to manage. Rather than adding individual models to a squad, you buy them in increments – sets of five models, 10 models, and so on. These generally correlate to the quantity you’ll get in that unit’s box, so you won’t need to agonise over how to include all of the models you’ve bought. It also helps to quickly understand the strength of a full squad at a glance, and makes list-building far quicker and simpler.

 

This is sort of their design MO now, they want to buy boxes and play them exactly based on what's on the sprues. The wargear thing will solve itself over time because new releases are limited on options generally. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Bradeh

[Squark]

1 minute ago, EnsignJoker said:

Don’t forget there are codices coming that will expand all of these options and bring adjustments. 
 

Starting from a simplified state means future changes will be easier to tinker with. There aren’t going to be as many dials to move when broken combos are identified. 
 

Give the indices a chance. Play some honest games and reevaluate after. 

Codexes will come with new units and additonal detachments to choose. Gw's said they don't intend to mess with what they've released right now beyond points changes.

[Doghouse]

1 minute ago, Bradeh said:

 

 

This is sort of their design MO now, they want to buy boxes and play them exactly based on what's on the sprues. 

 

I think this was the intention for 8th but they decided to not go ahead with it.

[Rain]

5 minutes ago, The Spitehorde said:

It's way past "idiotic" and requires words that would get me banned from this forum in a millisecond to truly describe it.  Out of interest, which PDF is it that says you can run between 5 and 10 but still have to pay for the full ten? 

 

 

 

It's at the top of the points cost doc. Quoting:

 

You can use this document to determine the points (pts) value of each unit in your army. Each entry lists the increments to a unit’s size that incur different points costs. This may change with the addition of each individual model (e.g. 1 model, 2 models, 3 models, etc.) or it may be presented with a lower and upper limit to a unit’s Starting Strength (e.g. one cost for 5 models, another cost for 10 models). In the latter case, your units can contain a number of models in between these limits, but you must still pay the maximum points cost for a unit that starts the game with more than its minimum number of models. You can learn more about using points to muster your army on pages 55-56 of the Core Rules.

 

(Emphasis mine) It appears that all infantry units are the "block purchase" case. The per model case is probably for vehicle squadrons or packs of big monsters, or something like that.

[The Spitehorde]

3 minutes ago, caladancid said:

I don’t have it in front of me but I think the points sheet says it at the top. 

 

Ta for that. I just went straight to the paltry 23 units WE get, scrolling down past the 122 unit options the vanilla SM get   [/salty]

[Dark Legionnare]

8 minutes ago, Arkhanist said:

 

Oh, I'm pretty sure GW have considered that. The solution is for bobby cheap-squad to buy a shiny new GW ultra-frag-boom squad(TM)! Consume citizen, consume.

Oh, for sure; my dude, 10000%.  "Malicious laziness" as I've called it for the last couple years, is an umbrella that covers a lot of their stuff. 

[Lord Marshal]

Honestly the whole thing comes off like GW wanted to bin points for Power Level(tm) but were consciously aware advertising it would probably go down like a lead balloon... so instead they functionally switched to Power Level(tm) while ditching the actual name.

 

I guess the warning signs were always there with the Arks of Omen season.

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Lord Marshal

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Managed to steal a moment to look over the points, then flip back to the WarCom artacle and read as some doofy goober tries to point out how much easier it'll be to build lists now that squads are locked to being bought in blobs. And I couldn't help but think how often I've wished, when building with PL for my narative campaigns, that I could just dump a couple of extra PL into bumping up a squad size to round off a list instead of having to hunt down that one complete unit that fits.

 

I've been pretty patient with this 'Simplified, Not Simple' nonsense they're waving around, but this is pretty dumb.

 

Or, maybe it's 'Stupified, Not Stupid.'

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

44 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

Yeah. People were always free to take the less strong options because they thought they looked cool. The trade-off, in theory anyway, was that they paid fewer points compared to the stronger options.

 

Now, Mr. Fluff gets obliterated by Mr. Strong who paid the exact same points cost for an army with significant mathematical advantage.

 

I mostly agree with this except I don't think Mr. Strong and Mr. Fluff are going to have anywhere near the same list now. Without FoCs  I just expect a ton of skew lists. 

 

[Ammonius]

So, can I use the "Space Marine" points values with my "Adeptus Astartes" unit cards? :)

 

(this is an extra "sarcasm intended" note)

[Craig]

I can see the points in the codexes staying the same throughout the whole edition so that casual pick up games aren't penalising either player for not being up to date with the latest FAQ releases and various publications. I think this would be a great way for retaining casual players. I think then in turn, tournament point costing can be released on a much more regular basis to manage the meta. If this is the case I would applaud it.

 

Also, partially related. My 40k app has updated itself to '(old) WH 40k'. This would imply the new app is incoming imminently.

[Lord Marshal]

It barely makes list building easier because you end up in those annoying situations where your total comes to 2010 points, but whereas before you'd just remove a model or take away a piece of wargear, you now have to takeout whole units and shuffle them around with something else entirely to find a way to maximise points - then probably come out the otherside 1925 or something.

 

It just about works in AoS because the disparity between equipment is relatively minor - there's still some winners and loses but the gulf usually isn't so wide you feel like an idiot for not building optimally - and there's plenty of options for things like Endless Spells or just extra Command Points to buy to fill the divide. 10th does have Enhancements but they're still much more limited (although codexes might change that)

 

In what world is a Guard player NOT taking anything but Lascannons on their Heavy Weapon Squads for example? My gut feeling is this entire exercise is going to last no longer than the second Chapter Approved, then suddenly equipment (at the least) will have points costs returned to it.

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Lord Marshal

[phandaal]

7 minutes ago, Jorin Helm-splitter said:

 

I mostly agree with this except I don't think Mr. Strong and Mr. Fluff are going to have anywhere near the same list now. Without FoCs  I just expect a ton of skew lists. 

 

 

Yeah. Mainly, this will not be a net positive for the more fluffy people, since fluff no longer comes at a discount.

 

And like others have said, this will do nothing to streamline the actual gameplay experience because list building takes place before the game.

[prava]

2 hours ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

Crumbs, it would always help if I pasted the right link in there and not 9th edition Munitorum points in there, eh?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/oF1iWIkNsvlUHByM.pdf

 

If it makes you feel any better, for some reason I fail to understand those documents are NOT dated so it is not possible to know from within if you are looking at the correct one. Heck, they don't even specify the edition.

 

PD: yup, I also found the wrong one. I googled it because I saw some people already had it but wasn't on warcom and... yup, found 9th editions one xD

[TempestBlade]

Just wish land raiders could transport 12 now so I could attach a leader to a squad of terminators…

[Squark]

6 minutes ago, Lord Marshal said:

10th does have Enhancements but they're still much more limited (although codexes might change that)

 

Codexes are not going to change the number of enhancements available, at least until the design team has time to react to the wailing and gnashing of teeth and they realize they need to make changes. One in, one out. The new detachments will also have 4-5 different enhancements.

[Kallas]

Just now, TempestBlade said:

Just wish land raiders could transport 12 now so I could attach a leader to a squad of terminators…

They can. Land Raiders are up to 12 capacity, and Redeemers are up to 14; Crusaders stay at 16.

[Squark]

2 minutes ago, TempestBlade said:

Just wish land raiders could transport 12 now so I could attach a leader to a squad of terminators…

Rejoice, for they do for exactly that reason!

 

 

 

 

...I might be feeling somewhat manic between this and a cluster At work.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Squark