Potential Codex Space Marine Leaks

[TrawlingCleaner]

Oaths being changed to Reroll hits is much better in my opinion. Looking at something like Dark Eldar where you have to spend 1 Pain Token on one unit to get rerolls to hit, you can only earn these back by killing a unit or getting them to fail a battleshock. There's an economy to it, there's choice and an element of risk. If I spend all 4 of my starting tokens to beef my 2 Ravagers, Scourge and a Raider up to try and deal with a big threat, I'm only getting 1 token back from killing it and unliekly to deal damage elsewhere. I could spend all of my tokens to deal with smaller threats and try to recoup my tokens spent by killing smaller units which leaves me open to being hit back

 

Oaths (currently) is, I pick a unit on the board and my army will kill it this turn. There's no recourse or counter play, there's no economy or risk just point your army at the thing and kill it. Worse than that, it's not really that fun (perhaps anecdotal) to play against or to play with. The Doctrines in comparison are very cool, there's choice an economy and there's risk to it. It could get you out of a jam to be able to fall back and shoot this turn but next turn you may need it more

 

If units are getting changes or buffs with the codex, I think it's a good idea to change OoM

[lonewolf81]

 I play spacewolves and i totally agree that Oath is too good with the reroll to wound. Reroll hits only is fine and more balanced.

[Orange Knight]

19 minutes ago, lonewolf81 said:

 I play spacewolves and i totally agree that Oath is too good with the reroll to wound. Reroll hits only is fine and more balanced.

 

I'm curious. More balanced compared to what?

 

Oath is re-rolls against one unit, and we exist in a meta where tough vehicles like Knights can cause a lot of issues.

 

It's less relevant against armies that run numerous disposable units, and becomes less relevant still as games get bigger.

Marines have a low win rate in the current game, and that game isn't going to change much when the codex is released.

 

I understand that a lot of players only play against a few friends who perhaps also use Marines, but in truth the rule is not causing issues in the game.

[SicklyPiglet]

Do we know if primaris units can use Rhino’s in the new codex?

[Karhedron]

5 minutes ago, SicklyPiglet said:

Do we know if primaris units can use Rhino’s in the new codex?

 

I haven't heard anything to suggest they can. My guess is that the restrictions will remain as per the Index cards.

[Doctor Perils]

1 hour ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

It's not anecdotal; GeeDub admitted it on their Fb site around 10th launch time.

They stated how many people involved (5-6ish) and how many games were played by them (Not that many each). 

They stated they would leave balance up to the tournament results, so basically tournament players are their playtesters.

 

This Dex will be out of date in days most likely. Shame, I needed rules for my Green DA; but as I mentioned above, a nice printed and bound Index and Legends collection will do better for less.

Sounds to me like the codexes should only have gone to print now, after the main index kinks were ironed out, rather than expected to release now...

Also, the 40k team should really be taking cues from the AoS team on codex design - you get more lore, colour plates and art tutorials in one battletome, making it a much nicer book to keep around even if the rules are only valid 2 years.

[Joe]

The AoS team generally seem to have it much, much more together than the 40k team these days; one of my long-standing critiques against 40k is the fact the points updates aren't really shown properly in the documents, whereas AoS clearly delineates if something has gone up or down. Not to mention the fact AoS has a base size document as well.

[Lemondish]

3 hours ago, TrawlingCleaner said:

Oaths (currently) is, I pick a unit on the board and my army will kill it this turn. There's no recourse or counter play, there's no economy or risk just point your army at the thing and kill it. Worse than that, it's not really that fun (perhaps anecdotal) to play against or to play with.

 

I would counter this by saying that an entire 2000 point army firing into one unit should probably be enough firepower to kill it even without Oaths.

 

If you think that this new Oaths means your units will be safe now against Marines, then I don't know what to tell you. Things SHOULD die in 40k...

Edited September 18, 2023 by Lemondish

[Frogian]

Things should die, but there is a difference between an entire 2000 point army needed to take out a unit, and just a couple of units with decent firepower able to do it on their own turn one to a unit that's equal to them in pts. 

 

i've played a fair few games at 1k and being able to obliterate my opponents toughest unit that is a quarter of their army in a single turn with just a redemptor is a bit over the top

[Alternis]

On 9/17/2023 at 12:52 PM, Alternis said:

The only logical explanation I can see why OoM would get toned down is due to units abilities getting buffed 

 

There have been rumours and “third party confirmations” that the new jump assault Captain for eg will get a smash Captain type loadout that isn’t necessarily in the box and their abilities are going to change 

 

if this turns out to be true as written in codex, I can understand why the nerf to OoM had to happen to avoid SM jumping to replace Eldar

Yep, as I suspected.

[Alternis]

3 hours ago, SicklyPiglet said:

Do we know if primaris units can use Rhino’s in the new codex?

From what GW have said, what’s in the index is pretty much staying as is going into the codex, all that seems to be tweaked atm is unit abilities, points costs and detachments. 
 

So Tacitus armour units not going into first born vehicles will remain to be the case (Restricted), However, a lot of the duplicate units that exist for both first born and primaris are being merged into 1 profile, so down the line, unless they decide to squat Rhino’s, Land Raiders etc, they will likely see an integration at some point….maybe. 
 

GW have made their stance quite clear on old 1st born models, so something to take on board.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Alternis
Typo’s - I’m writing while getting ready for work, apologies for the errors.

[The Unseen]

4 hours ago, Frogian said:

Things should die, but there is a difference between an entire 2000 point army needed to take out a unit, and just a couple of units with decent firepower able to do it on their own turn one to a unit that's equal to them in pts. 

 

i've played a fair few games at 1k and being able to obliterate my opponents toughest unit that is a quarter of their army in a single turn with just a redemptor is a bit over the top

 

An ability designed for use at 2k potentially unbalanced in a game half the size, more news at 11.

 

40k is never balanced if you get to far from the pts values of the "common" game size. At 2k, marines have an absolutely awful winrate, and this is a straight nerf. 

Go play against necrons and see what real low pts abuse looks like. A 1k marine army with reroll wounds still probably won't kill a full lychguard brick, and with only reroll hits you won't kill it ever 

[Amocat]

I'm happy with the playstyles being opened up with detachment variety: It doesn't detract from unique chapters as they still get to pick something flavorful, but not restricted to a particular playstyle. I play Templars and while I like to keep them 'fluffy", sometimes as a modeler I want to build units that don't really fit in the templar playstyle. With this I don't have to worry that a cool model will sit on my shelf because it doesn't fit with that specific playstyle, if I *want* to run a templar gunline, or vehicle heavy list, I can and also get some rules that help that list. Nobody is having anything taken away, IE Blood angels will get their book, etc., it just opens up some options that were already there without needing to say 'these bluemarines are dark angels for this game".  I find its more fun this way, and I'm all for it. 

[Alternis]

20 hours ago, lonewolf81 said:

 I play spacewolves and i totally agree that Oath is too good with the reroll to wound. Reroll hits only is fine and more balanced.

I neither agree nor disagree with this statement.

 

It all depends entire on these new unit ability changes.

If the unit ability changes get buffed and are sufficiently powerful then yes I agree with your statement, without a doubt. 
 

However if the unit ability changes turn out to be nerfs or very lacklustre changes then I wholly disagree and nerfing OoM was the worst thing GW could have done to SM’s. 

[MegaVolt87]

22 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

Lack of time and money. I have heard anecdotally that playtesting for 10th edition was extremely limited. Whilst I always take such stories with a pinch of salt, the level of imbalance in the Index rules makes me think it is plausible at least.

 

The other thing to remember is that GW is not particularly interested in balanced rules, at least not as a core part of their business strategy. They view themselves a model manufacturer first and foremost. The rules are simply there to help sell the minis.

 

Problem is, GW confirmation of being a models company first has now conditioned the community. A new codex will be busted for 3-4 months, then nerfed into the ground (LoV, Nids in 9th). Buying new models is a liability as a result, better to stick with oldies and see how new stuff is FAQ'd later. GW then buffs older stuff again to move the sales graph line again later. Most recent example, the darlings of 8-9th, primaris bladeguard have been cheap as chips on the second hand market with the 10th ed index. 

[Karhedron]

The changes to OOM will be an indirect boost to units with Twin-linked or other Wound rerolls. Eradicators are looking a bit more interesting for example now that other anti-tank units are less likely to be rerolling wounds.

[Special Officer Doofy]

As a Death Guard player with a garbage faction ability of a melee range -1T debuff on the slowest army, I welcome any and all faction ability nerfs. Feel free to smash that disagree button, I'll still sleep like a baby!

[SvenIronhand]

11 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

As a Death Guard player with a garbage faction ability of a melee range -1T debuff on the slowest army, I welcome any and all faction ability nerfs. Feel free to smash that disagree button, I'll still sleep like a baby!

So, everyone has to suffer because you are?

[Redcomet]

8 minutes ago, SvenIronhand said:

So, everyone has to suffer because you are?

That is one way to balance. Make everyone equally “bad” so no one is

[Petitioner's City]

14 minutes ago, SvenIronhand said:

So, everyone has to suffer because you are?

 

To be fair, that is a very Death Guard approach! 

 

But do you ever go back to older edition design language, and see how simple things were - limited army special rules, limited unit special rules, more universal wargear and weapons. Just feels more "all bad" - or rather "all flat" - and something missing today. 

[Cpt_Reaper]

2 minutes ago, Petitioner's City said:

 

To be fair, that is a very Death Guard approach! 

 

But do you ever go back to older edition design language, and see how simple things were - limited army special rules, limited unit special rules, more universal wargear and weapons. Just feels more "all bad" - or rather "all flat" - and something missing today. 

To which edition do you refer? Because that doesn't describe 9th, 8th, 7th, 6th...maaaybe 5th. A more correct statement would older editions only offered one or two good ways to play per army, and the rest were so bad even casual games were a chore.

[Alternis]

28 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

As a Death Guard player with a garbage faction ability of a melee range -1T debuff on the slowest army, I welcome any and all faction ability nerfs. Feel free to smash that disagree button, I'll still sleep like a baby!

I don’t see how because you’re clearly playing them wrong now, didn’t you hear the news? Death Guard is a horde army now, no longer elites.

 

Doesn’t matter what faction nerfs drop if your still trying to play it like an elite army it won’t work, you want mass zombies, that’s how DG players are winning these days.

Oh and before we play into whatever card you are trying to drop here, I main Blood Angels, and GW have turned us into Red Ultramarines, BA must take mass vehicles and long ranged units to survive this edition, but you don’t see me praising other factions getting nerfs in other peoples face, be mad at GW for turning our armies into jokes, not the people here discussing it. 
 

Thanks for coming to my Sanguine-talk. 

[Borbarad]

9 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

That is one way to balance. Make everyone equally “bad” so no one is

Or make everyone just as good.
 

Both ways work; really depends on the overall game direction GW wants to take. 9th was often criticized as too killy, so an overall nerf is expected tather than a buff. 

[Petitioner's City]

3 minutes ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

To which edition do you refer? Because that doesn't describe 9th, 8th, 7th, 6th...maaaybe 5th. A more correct statement would older editions only offered one or two good ways to play per army, and the rest were so bad even casual games were a chore.

 

Yeah I'm thinking older than that :)

[Cryptshadow]

22 hours ago, Frogian said:

Things should die, but there is a difference between an entire 2000 point army needed to take out a unit, and just a couple of units with decent firepower able to do it on their own turn one to a unit that's equal to them in pts. 

 

i've played a fair few games at 1k and being able to obliterate my opponents toughest unit that is a quarter of their army in a single turn with just a redemptor is a bit over the top

Wait, so a unit or equal units worth the same price as that one unit being able to kill that unit is over the top? Wouldnt that be balanced? A redemptor in a 1k game is also almost a quarter of that persons army so why shouldnt it kill the equvilent of its points? 

 

Oaths is/was a strong skill but i disagree kt was op, its for making surr the greatest threats to you have a high chance of dying. Which is pretty fluffy imo. But also it was cery limited in what it could do, one targrt only per round, 2 with guilliman and onky if u killed it. Which would cost you almost 25% of your army to do so and limit you to um hqs.

 

It was never a problem in 9th when ultramarines were the only ones with the ability it didnt carry them to the magical 45 to 55 percent win rate gw seems to love, sure it could be a feels bad to lose your biggest model first turn if you werent able to protect it.

 

They could have even changed it more to 2 or more targets since its just reroll hits to at least make it ok but  its still just one target which is... eh. 

 Now honestly this could be a good thing, in that if you said oaths was a crutch for space marines and changing this ability might help the marine playstyle overall,  then id hope this is true, but so far my exp with gw is that they are very ham fisted with changes. So who knows imo