Potential Codex Space Marine Leaks

[Malakithe]

Also the Hero unit is going to cause issues with transports as all Marine transports are fine tuned to allow for very specific unit comps like one max sized squad or a 5 man + 1 Leader. Unless your running the Hero unit on its own which seems kinda strange.

[Blindhamster]

29 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Probably, but a unit like this isn't going to be particularly cheap.

 

I just don't see why I would run it ahead of a dedicated squad like Bladeguard, Hellblasters or Aggressors.

95 points for the 4 of them.

if you take a captain its 185 points right? 185 points for 21 wounds with a -1 to wound rule, seems every model has a multi damage weapon for ranged or melee, it can take objectives reasonably well (being OC10 for the unit as a whole).

 

but yeah, will be interesting to see if the champion gets any of the champion style rules of its reduced to just precision like the video says.

[Angelus Nex]

You can ad a lieutenant to get to 6 marines and fallback and charge.

[Sir Clausel]

Very curious to see what kind of gear they can take. If you can make them melee oriented or ranged would be cool and usable. But if its just like shown i think it will be hard for them to perform well expect for going on an objective and staying there. They dont have enough attacks in either ranged or melee to pose a threat and as far as we know no invul save so high ap weapons will hurt them. 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Sir Clausel

[Karhedron]

12 minutes ago, Angelus Nex said:

You can ad a lieutenant to get to 6 marines and fallback and charge.

 

Or an Apothecary (hopefully) so that each Command Phase you can bring back one of those chunky 4-wound models.

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

I thought that's what all the Primaris detractors wanted

We never wanted Primaris in the first place so... 

 

Command Squad looks decent, very much depends on weapon options - which typically Primaris have been bad for offering.

[Karhedron]

3 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Command Squad looks decent, very much depends on weapon options - which typically Primaris have been bad for offering.

 

Best assume what we see in the pics is all they get (plus whatever the attached Leader is packing). Anything beyond that is a bonus.

 

I have to say that at the rumoured 95 points, they are a good deal with almost any loadout. The Champion is decent in melee and a 3-Damage Heavy Bolter will do work. The squad is not very focussed but they are the same price as squad of Intercessors and have better durability, melee and shooting. I can see myself fitting one of these in.

[Angelus Nex]

43 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Or an Apothecary (hopefully) so that each Command Phase you can bring back one of those chunky 4-wound models.

Yeeessss

[jaxom]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

The Hero unit actually sounds pretty cool.

 

I just don't know what I would be doing with it? It's too much like a classic Marine unit - it seems unfocused and disjointed in purpose.

 

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

I just don't see why I would run it ahead of a dedicated squad like Bladeguard, Hellblasters or Aggressors.

It’s a characterful (pun intended) unit and opens up some interesting options for painting, modeling, and narrative. If one is looking for tournament or optimized lists, it will always just come down to points efficiency.

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

I thought that's what all the Primaris detractors wanted, so hopefully they'll be happy! I imagine they're a good anchor on the end of a line or for holding a point with their defensive profile and the fact you both don't want to get shot or charged by them point for point.

 

The non disingenuous take is that they wanted units with options that could be built to fit a variety of situations. Like the old command squad, or van vets, devs, and tacs back in editions like 4th and 5th. The owner got to customize the unit to the given role they wanted them to have; they didn't want a mono-option, non cohesive build.

 

In terms of how they'll actually probably be used? Kinda depends on any invul and any ability to ditch the guns for more melee. They gotta compete with other durable melee units like terminators and bladeguard, and that's a lot to ask for a unit with low melee weapons, middling armour, and no invul. Like, lychguard and scarabs ain't durable simply because of -1.

[Blindhamster]

14 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

The non disingenuous take is that they wanted units with options that could be built to fit a variety of situations. Like the old command squad, or van vets, devs, and tacs back in editions like 4th and 5th. The owner got to customize the unit to the given role they wanted them to have; they didn't want a mono-option, non cohesive build.

 

In terms of how they'll actually probably be used? Kinda depends on any invul and any ability to ditch the guns for more melee. They gotta compete with other durable melee units like terminators and bladeguard, and that's a lot to ask for a unit with low melee weapons, middling armour, and no invul. Like, lychguard and scarabs ain't durable simply because of -1.

But... they aren't competing with terminators, because the kind of characters they can go with cant go with terminators (and 5 terminators costs more than these do with an attached captain).

 

Their literal purpose is to go with a character, and with a character they do a good job of making said character more survivable thanks to -1 to wound vs the unit (melee and shooting), they also nicely supplement everything else about the character, augmenting the shooting and melee capabilities, all for the cost of a 5 man intercessor squad (which incidentally is only 2 more OC as well thanks to the ancient).

 

As @Karhedron said, when put in that context - I can absolutely see taking them in place of 5 intercessors.

 

or put another way:

3 bladeguard are 90 points

4 of these are 95 points

 

the bladeguard have better melee threat (assuming only one of the company heroes gets a power weapon)

the bladeguard have a 4++

the bladeguard can either reroll saves of 1 in melee or hit rolls of 1

 

the company heroes have 7 more wounds

the company heroes have 5 more OC

the company heroes melee threat can target characters

the company heroes have far more ranged threat

the company heroes likely have some rules for the champion (like the current firstborn command squad)

the company heroes almost certainly have more attacks per round in melee (as well as shooting)

if attaching a character, the company heroes get -1 to wound

 

both units likely have the same movement, toughness, save

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Blindhamster

[CCE1981]

The only thing I can see the Command Squad really doing is being a tarpit unit on an objective….against chaff.  Your opponent might be a little hesitant to send a median character after them.  Honestly though I think it will be tough add to a list, what does it really do? Have a high OC? Characters and the Champion will be the only models with decent melee the rest will probably be 12 str 4 ap 0 attacks.  It just doesn’t seem like it works, unless they become a bodyguard that can further attach to another unit.

 

edit:

Actually yeah, if the Command Squad works like guard Command Squads, this will be a very good unit.  A Captain and Command Squad attached to even three Bladeguard and you have a very solid unit, if attached to 6 Bladeguard and that is 11 models easily fit into a Land Raider.  Hell it even looks good attached to a Sternguard unit.  Fingers crossed that is actually the case.

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by CCE1981

[Blindhamster]

1 minute ago, CCE1981 said:

The only thing I can see the Command Squad really doing is being a tarpit unit on an objective….against chaff.  Your opponent might be a little hesitant to send a median character after them.  Honestly though I think it will be tough add to a list, what does it really do? Have a high OC? Characters and the Champion will be the only models with decent melee the rest will probably be 12 str 4 ap 0 attacks.  It just doesn’t seem like it works, unless they become a bodyguard that can further attach to another unit.

it’s probably a case that you’d literally be subbing them in in place of something like intercessors I think. They’ll do more or less the same thing, just better in every way. If they keep the free heroic intervention you’d have potentially 2 free strats on the unit a turn too - which could be cool in the right situation.

 

you’re correct that their melee threat isn’t thrilling, though I do think the champion having a multi damage precision weapon means only the toughest characters can realistically risk charging them.

 

also, to the blood angels players, I suspect this is the format sanguinary guard will take when they get their update. 4 models designed specifically to go with a jump infantry character. Built in ancient, and perhaps a few slightly more unique sanguinary guard loadouts than we currently have. Likely retaining the -1 to hit rule they have now vs these guys -1 to wound. No idea if that’s a good thing or not, it’ll certainly mean they’re less likely to be spammed 

[Arkhanist]

2 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

But... they aren't competing with terminators, because the kind of characters they can go with cant go with terminators.

 

Their literal purpose is to go with a character, and with a character they do a good job of making said character more survivable thanks to -1 to wound vs the unit (melee and shooting), they also nicely supplement everything else about the character, augmenting the shooting and melee capabilities, all for the cost of a 5 man intercessor squad (which incidentally is only 2 more OC as well thanks to the ancient).

 

As @Karhedron said, when put in that context - I can absolutely see taking them in place of 5 intercessors.

 

Having a nu-height gold-helmeted company command squad, with attached sanguinary priest if possible, escort a foot Captain is cool enough for me!

 

 

(though if we could get a very old school Honour Guard squad with jump packs, that would be even better!)

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

The non disingenuous take is that they wanted units with options that could be built to fit a variety of situations. Like the old command squad, or van vets, devs, and tacs back in editions like 4th and 5th. The owner got to customize the unit to the given role they wanted them to have; they didn't want a mono-option, non cohesive build.

 

In terms of how they'll actually probably be used? Kinda depends on any invul and any ability to ditch the guns for more melee. They gotta compete with other durable melee units like terminators and bladeguard, and that's a lot to ask for a unit with low melee weapons, middling armour, and no invul. Like, lychguard and scarabs ain't durable simply because of -1.

I was being flippantly satirical, but it's not like 7 bolters, a power fist/pistol, a las cannon and a plasma gun were exactly the ubiquity of purpose and flexibility either. Nor was the box standard missile launcher, flamer and pistol/chainsword unit.

 

I always get a bit flummoxed by this, primaris marines literally are defined by mono-tasked units, this is what the provide, just they do it in multiple units instead of 1 unit with X loadout options. Want plasma? Hellbalsters. Want melta? Eradicators etc,

 

When people say they want customisation, 9/10 they want a command squad that (like in 5th edition) is 4 dudes with plasma guns and a FNP save. They want to game the unit into a specific role away from the fluff of the unit a lot of the time. It's the same reason I don't shed a tear for combi-weapons generally. (Yes I'll get hated for that)

 

This command squad is indeed a bit of an odd combination of melee and range but as the article says, it represents mixed disciplines from across the company coming together to form the bodyguard each in their own way.

[TempestBlade]

Looking at it this squad isn’t going to be a hammer but it will be an annoyance. Throw in an apothecary and an impulsor and zip it to a side objective. Harder to remove than an intercessor squad, has some annoying shots and decent melee that the opponent will have to dedicate something to. That then lets your hammer unit have a turn or two of running rampant somewhere else. All in all if it isn’t super expensive pointwise might be a less competitive but cool looking squad. 

[Orange Knight]

I think the hero unit is ok at a glance when compared to minimum sized squads of other units, but that's a limitation with it's own downsides.

 

The cost of the characters attached to the squad doesn't change. I would much rather have a Lieutenant lead a unit of 6 Bladeguard Veterans than 4 heroes of the chapter with their mish-mash of wargear, for example.

 

I think it's a very cool looking squad, but it would be much more interesting if the whole squad AND the captain could join another unit, similar to Calgar and the Victrix Guard.

 

As it stands one of the biggest list building traps one can fall into is to attach lots of characters to different units, when it's actually better to attach a few characters to key units that have a bigger impact on the tabletop.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Orange Knight

[Dr. Clock]

If this is all true, I think they went the right way in terms of differentiating Bladeguard and Heroes without favoring either. As a unit it's an obvious, necessary and frankly stellar reprise of a classic unit that was let down by the hard shift to 'what if mini-characters?' in 8th. Definitely liking that this is a self-sufficient pick that comes in below the general '10 marines plus buff character' threshold. Looks solid, dependable, and pretty efficient part of frontline.

 

I also really like the fact that more or less it's 'two sternguard chilling with Captain, Ancient and Champ' so I don't even need to buy the kit to field it, just paint 1 or 2 more Leviathan marines. Most Primaris collectors will have at least one Ancient and sword Lt that aren't used much since they've not been near efficient since release - I know I do.

 

I'll still pretty much always take 6 Bladeguard + Judiciar, but I have almost no interest in taking more than that. But ~200 points for Captain and 4 chonk friends is actually interesting in comparison and indeed alongside the Bladeguard for me. I'll take this unit a million times before I take the same characters all together sprinkled across a list. Indeed, I might end up taking it in most games for rule of cool...

 

Major question is will still be how and whether other characters can join it to try and make it a true hammer or anvil or both. Also potentially enhancements on the Captain?

 

From rumours, I guess the only thing that could make it more fitting to my mind would be some kind of targeted buff ability, like that the Captain's free Strat can be used on any friendly or Battleline unit within 6", or even that the Ancient bonus can likewise be distributed 'by command' instead of only influencing the command squad itself.

 

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

As it stands one of the biggest list building traps one can fall into is to attach lots of characters to different units, when it's actually better to attach a few characters to key units that have a bigger impact on the tabletop.

 

What is 'lots', in your mind? I'm finding that this really changes army to army. My infantry / fast marines, meched-up shooty marines, Craftworlds, GSC and AdMech each have about 4 characters most of the time, but World Eaters and Drukhari is looking like 1 or 2, and for Guard it goes to ~6 plus a tank commander and Gaunt's Ghosts.

 

Just curious - I think there are lots of cases where strictly speaking any given pair of characters could be more efficient as an extra independent 150-170 point unit... But equally admitting that every time you slap a character somewhere you place a target just as big, 2 buffed units are the easiest thing for your opponent to prioritize countering if you don't have enough hitting power in the remainder units to matter. Losing character buffs can quickly neuter damage or defence, so I tend to do 4 big squads with modest character in each so even if the enemy counters 1 or 2, the other 2 will be in position to get some big activations elsewhere. See earlier re: tall builds.

 

Anyway... exciting times : )

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

[Cleon]

I guess we'll see what the weapon options are for the squad if any. For me it's an open goal missed that they aren't on the same bases and easily interchangeable with the sternguard kit so you can mix up your command squad game to game (or pull one together from guys you already have) without some base faffing.

[Applejack1989]

Firestorm looks fun. Between my Phobos list and my "Oops all Flamers" idealism I am having a proper giggle.

[jaxom]

4 hours ago, Cleon said:

I guess we'll see what the weapon options are for the squad if any.

I'd expect it's what's on the sprues. That's been the trend with all new marine kits.

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, jaxom said:

I'd expect it's what's on the sprues. That's been the trend with all new marine kits.

 

Agreed. Also the Heroes look to be on 40mm bases so if you want to mix in Sternguard, you will need to rebase.

[Marshal Mittens]

I mean, they are apparently like 95pts and look cool.

 

That's only 5% ish of your army at 2000pts, and unless you are playing at the high end of a tournament, that's not a big sacrifice to include a cool looking unit.

 

Are there other units which might do some things better?

 

You bet!

 

But it's not like you are going to lose games by including them, and if you like them, you might enjoy your games just a bit more. 

 

I like them. I will buy some for my army.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Marshal Mittens said:

I mean, they are apparently like 95pts and look cool.

 

95 points for a squad of hero characters is very aggressive, considering some minor characters are about that much or more on their own.

 

Maybe they were at 95 points when whoever leaked the cost saw the codex, but those costs are going to be inaccurate given the balance updates.

[Blindhamster]

12 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

95 points for a squad of hero characters is very aggressive, considering some minor characters are about that much or more on their own.

 

Maybe they were at 95 points when whoever leaked the cost saw the codex, but those costs are going to be inaccurate given the balance updates.

maybe, maybe not, its more than bladeguard and people keep saying they'd rather have the bladeguard.

 

Even if they do go up, I really doubt it'll be more than 5-10 points. Particularly as most marine units went DOWN not up