The Horus Heresy Horus Heresy: The Battle for Beta-Garmon

[Marshal Loss]

Blackshield rules sound really well done. The 'Twisted Helix' Blackshield Oath sounds like a better version of what the Corrupted EC rules were trying to accomplish...

 

Also nice to see that they've done a reasonable array of plates. They're always a highlight for me.

  

1 hour ago, Astartes Consul said:

 

I think it’s the Hereticus - aka Corrupted EC - lists that you can’t use them with. So fully corrupted Astartes who would simply be impossible for morals to fight alongside and stay sane and/or alive? 

 

The mortals took one look at the wall of text for Lords of Profligacy/Stupefy and decided they'd rather chill with the Iron Warriors.

Edited March 23 by Marshal Loss

[The Unseen]

1 hour ago, tinpact said:

The overseer looks a really fun addition - I've wanted an option for a space marine leading mortal thralls for a while. 

 

Though, am I correct in reading that you can only use the Legions Auxilia rule with loyalist armies of traitor legions? Seems a bit disappointing right after they showed off a bunch of cohorts that explicitly went traitor with their buddy legion.

Don't know if someone answered, but I *think* its just disallowed to the full chaos Hereticus list, like the ECs weird list with ascended Fulgrim. At least I hope so.

[Doobles57]

2 hours ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

I just listened to Winter´s review. Your Shattered Legions´ squads consist of soldiers from multiple Legions and never a single one. They gain boons and drawbacks depending on what types of Legionaires are in the squad. They also state that these rules are complex. 

 

Example:

Majority of the squad consists of Iron Hands. The squad becomes more durable. When you later receive casualties and opt to remove enough Iron Hands so that another type of Legionaire is in the majority then you exchange the previous buff with a new one.

 

Imo this reads great and is a mechanic that to my knowledge GW has never implemented before in their games. In fact the Shattered Legions seem a bit like the Alpha Legion as you have potentially multiple special rules available with the difference  that you can change them DURING the game which is hilarious. So no doom and gloom but a fun way to explore the Legions.

The basic concept behind it is cool. And a fun way to explore how the shattered legions operated. But having to track the breakdown of models in every unit every phase is a level of bookkeeping that seems a bit OTT.

If the traits were applied at the start of a turn and lasted until the next it'd be more usable. But every unit, every phase in both players turns? The fact that the book basically calls it out as not suitable for tournaments (don't care about that personally) or if you have time constraints (this I do care about) says a lot. 

 

Maybe it works better in practice and if you use it a lot I'm sure you'd get the hang of it and adapt quickly. As your opponent though? Feels like it might get annoying. 

[Nephaston]

2 hours ago, The Unseen said:

Don't know if someone answered, but I *think* its just disallowed to the full chaos Hereticus list, like the ECs weird list with ascended Fulgrim. At least I hope so.

Correct. All legions are Legiones Astartes, only EC have the option to switch to Legiones Hereticus. We can assume that others will follow.

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

1 hour ago, Doobles57 said:

The basic concept behind it is cool. And a fun way to explore how the shattered legions operated. But having to track the breakdown of models in every unit every phase is a level of bookkeeping that seems a bit OTT.

If the traits were applied at the start of a turn and lasted until the next it'd be more usable. But every unit, every phase in both players turns? The fact that the book basically calls it out as not suitable for tournaments (don't care about that personally) or if you have time constraints (this I do care about) says a lot. 

 

Maybe it works better in practice and if you use it a lot I'm sure you'd get the hang of it and adapt quickly. As your opponent though? Feels like it might get annoying. 

When you go to a tournament and intend to win you not only need to know the core rules but every bit of wargear, special rules and whatnot of the other Legions to stand a chance. Compared to that massive homework assignment memorizing a couple traits for your Shattered Legions seems to be quite trivial. 

 

However I can´t wait to see the first troll who builds a Shattered Legion from all 18 Legions. That guy will be the most despised player in the room. LOL!

[Slips]

So we *are* getting a weapons kit for Blackshields, judging by this image.

[MoriyaSchism]

14 minutes ago, Slips said:

So we *are* getting a weapons kit for Blackshields, judging by this image.

Those are mostly Orlock weapons from Necromunda.

[Indy Techwisp]

 

Ok, so. Are there any rules for TSons stuff in the book?

I've not seen any from previews iirc.

 

Also...

5 minutes ago, MoriyaSchism said:

Those are mostly Orlock weapons from Necromunda.

 

"Every model is a Necromunda model"

and apparently every Necromunda bit is conversion fodder for 30k/40k.

[Nephaston]

must resist the desire to buy 3 kits to make one kit, I need the monies more

[Noserenda]

Yeah i think its very telling even the authors dont seem to think the shattered legions rules are up to spec, they are definitely extremely abuseable, you can choose by phase so when you have two legions with the same number as biggest you can just ignore the disadvantages entirely. 

Feels like they really should have killed a few darlings in that section honestly and given us a functional rules system. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

21 minutes ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

When you go to a tournament and intend to win you not only need to know the core rules but every bit of wargear, special rules and whatnot of the other Legions to stand a chance. Compared to that massive homework assignment memorizing a couple traits for your Shattered Legions seems to be quite trivial. 

 

However I can´t wait to see the first troll who builds a Shattered Legion from all 18 Legions. That guy will be the most despised player in the room. LOL!

It's not memorizing a few traits that people are complaining about. The complaints are that you have to check each unit every phase to see how the balance of major and minor traits has changed with casualties. It's a clunky time drain past any of the faction mechanics from 9th 40k that were panned

[Nephaston]

It would probably have sufficed to do the tallying for the SL rules once per round or turn for the whole army instead of every phase per unit. That way one could keep the flexibility of changing the benefits and downsides over the course of the game, but with less min maxing each unit and without wasting everyones time.

[Doobles57]

3 hours ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

When you go to a tournament and intend to win you not only need to know the core rules but every bit of wargear, special rules and whatnot of the other Legions to stand a chance. Compared to that massive homework assignment memorizing a couple traits for your Shattered Legions seems to be quite trivial. 

 

However I can´t wait to see the first troll who builds a Shattered Legion from all 18 Legions. That guy will be the most despised player in the room. LOL!

That's not the point being made though. As I said, I don't really care about tournaments. Not my thing. But checking and tracking the makeup of every squad multiple times a turn is a hell of a lot of admin and a time sink. And as your opponent, it goes beyond "oh I can see that squad has a couple of plasma guns still".

 

The fact that the designers have called it out as not suitable when you're on a clock (which a lot of us are for even the most casual game) says a lot about their confidence in the setup. 

 

Like I said at the start I like the concept. But this doesn't feel like the best implementation of it. Blackshields on the other hand seen very fun and tempting to play with. 

[Slips]

4 hours ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

When you go to a tournament and intend to win you not only need to know the core rules but every bit of wargear, special rules and whatnot of the other Legions to stand a chance. Compared to that massive homework assignment memorizing a couple traits for your Shattered Legions seems to be quite trivial. 

 

However I can´t wait to see the first troll who builds a Shattered Legion from all 18 Legions. That guy will be the most despised player in the room. LOL!

I thought the SL list was capped at 3 different legions in the same list; so you can have a 20man squad with 1 guy from every legion + 2 guys who double up another

[Nephaston]

9 minutes ago, Slips said:

I thought the SL list was capped at 3 different legions in the same list; so you can have a 20man squad with 1 guy from every legion + 2 guys who double up another

Correct, SL player pick 2 to 3 legions and every unit needs to have it's first two to three members be one of each chosen legion, then they can choose any of the 2-3 legions or no discernible legion for the remaining models in the unit as they see fit.

So a player picking AL, RG, and NL will only ever have those or unspecific models and can thus only pick between AL, RG, and NL rules.

[01RTB01]

6 hours ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

When you go to a tournament and intend to win you not only need to know the core rules but every bit of wargear, special rules and whatnot of the other Legions to stand a chance. Compared to that massive homework assignment memorizing a couple traits for your Shattered Legions seems to be quite trivial. 

 

However I can´t wait to see the first troll who builds a Shattered Legion from all 18 Legions. That guy will be the most despised player in the room. LOL!

I'm not sure you do and there's more to gaming than tournaments. The day tournaments dictate rules you end up with 10th Ed 40k and I'd love 30k to avoid this.

[Marshal Rohr]

It will take all of two or three games before you can do the math on majority and minority from across the table. The models are color coded for Christ sake. Four green, one metal, and two matte black oh man let me get out my calculator!

[Fire Golem]

47 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

The models are color coded for Christ sake.

Yeah I’m really excited to make my Dark Angels, Iron Hands and Raven Guard shattered legion force ;)

[Marshal Rohr]

4 minutes ago, Fire Golem said:

Yeah I’m really excited to make my Dark Angels, Iron Hands and Raven Guard shattered legion force ;)

Iron hands are metal and ravens are gray now! Very easy!

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ya it's not doing simple math once that's the complaint.

 

It's that the rules change based on the majority and minority units, the changes happen every phase for every unit, and that the whole package is clunky and slows down the game, just so every legion gets its turn to be in charge of a unit.

 

And it'll definitely slow down the game just for wound allocation. The defending player has control of which wound pools get allocated to which models and will need to do some decision making on how to allocate wounds to maintain the desired trait on a unique unit to unit basis. Which means it'll also slow down the game for anyone who considers LoS for wound allocation and how they move units.

 

This isn't some hot take or deep dive; the designers straight up say it takes time and caution people. Shouldn't be surprised by rhor defending it, just confirms it as a miss. 

 

[Corswain]

All I need to know right now is can a Shattered Legion force have an allied detachment?

Seems crazy to build a Meduson guerrilla force and not take some Sagyar Mazan Scars and the beautiful Hibou Khan model.

Alternatively, can Hibou Khan be taken in a Shattered Legion list?

[Fire Golem]

8 minutes ago, Corswain said:

All I need to know right now is can a Shattered Legion force have an allied detachment?

Seems crazy to build a Meduson guerrilla force and not take some Sagyar Mazan Scars and the beautiful Hibou Khan model.

Alternatively, can Hibou Khan be taken in a Shattered Legion list?

According to the goonhammer review:

’Hibou Khan is an outcast member of the White Scars Kharash. As such he’s really cool for leading a Sagyar Mazan White Scars force. He’s also allowed to be included in a Shattered Legions army but he’s not great for that, as the Kharash rule stops him from joining any of their units.’

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

1 hour ago, Fire Golem said:

Yeah I’m really excited to make my Dark Angels, Iron Hands and Raven Guard shattered legion force ;)

You win the internet today. This is even better than having 18 Legions which are apparently not allowed. 

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Ya it's not doing simple math once that's the complaint.

 

It's that the rules change based on the majority and minority units, the changes happen every phase for every unit, and that the whole package is clunky and slows down the game, just so every legion gets its turn to be in charge of a unit.

 

And it'll definitely slow down the game just for wound allocation. The defending player has control of which wound pools get allocated to which models and will need to do some decision making on how to allocate wounds to maintain the desired trait on a unique unit to unit basis. Which means it'll also slow down the game for anyone who considers LoS for wound allocation and how they move units.

 

This isn't some hot take or deep dive; the designers straight up say it takes time and caution people. Shouldn't be surprised by rhor defending it, just confirms it as a miss. 

 

Sure and the devs admitted that the rules are complex. In the past I have been a Dungeon Master (RPG) for ten years. Keeping track of multiple players and monsters´ stats and current spell effects with individual durations had been daily routine. So such an experience would lend itself as good training to be able to figure out what is going with the ebb and flow of battle. 

 

However I am well aware that having a tournament with lots of players who all play Shattered Legions will be a daunting task for anybody involved.  But that is up for the organizers to handle. I am a grognard gamer who only does solo scenarios nowadays. So every little bit of a mental challenge is a welcome change to other games and armies in my collection. 

[Lord Marshal]

Alright, I've tried to compile the Legions Auxilia traits from various places and I think most of them are down now. Keep in mind I'm third and forth-hand transcribing these so they're not the actual wording and may be wrong:

• All: If the Legion wasn't Sworn Brothers/Fellow Warriors with Imperial Army already, they treat Legiones Auxilia as Fellow Warriors. Auxilia who fail a Morale Test within 12" of a Marine become Pinned instead of Falling Back.
• Dark Angels: If a Tercio'ed unit makes a Movement or Shooting Reaction, a Dark Angels unit within 6" can join in as well (without expending an additional Reaction).
• Emperor's Children: If a unit loses a model they get Hammer of Wrath (1) until the end of the controlling player's next turn (I'm guessing this means if an EC model dies within X", SA get it) 
• Iron Warriors: Auxilia ignore negative modifiers when taking Leadership Tests from Pinning or Concussive. 
• White Scars: Auxilia get FNP 6+ in their own deployment zone or when sitting on an objective.
• Space Wolves: When Auxilia make a Shooting Reaction, the enemy can't make Cover or Shrouded Saves.
• Imperial Fists: Auxilia units with Line get +1 to Cover Saves (Aegis Defence Line my beloved)
• Night Lords: Auxilia gain Rage (2) if within 12" of a friendly model with Fear (X).
• Blood Angels: Auxilia get +1 Attack within 6" of a Blood Angel.
• Iron Hands: If Auxilia fail a Morale Test in the Shooting Phase, they suffer D3 Wounds instead.
• World Eaters: Auxilia get +1 To Hit against units which are Falling Back or have suffered casualties. 
• Ultramarines: If Auxilia killed a model in the Shooting Phase, the unit it belonged to can only make Snap Shots when Overwatch'ing against Ultramarines that turn.
• Death Guard: Auxilia are -1 to Fleshbane and Poison attacks, infantry can reroll Dangerous Terrain tests (AKA SA can work in Creeping Death).
• Thousand Sons: Auxilia gain Adamantium Will (6+), Thousand Sons who Perils within 12" of an Auxilia unit can pass the wounds onto them.
• Sons of Horus: If Auxilia killed a model in the Shooting Phase, Sons of Horus get +2" to Charge against that same unit.
• Word Bearers: Tercio'ed Auxilia gain Crusader and Fleet (2) when at least one model in the unit starts the turn within 12" of a Word Bearer.
• Salamanders: Auxilia increase their Cover Save against Shooting Attacks to 4+ if an intervening unit is composed entirely of Salamanders models.
• Raven Guard: Auxilia get +1 LD if they can see a Beak Raven Guard.
• Alpha Legion: If an Shooting Attack is declared against a unit composed entirely of Alpha Legion and there's a unit of Auxilia with at least one model within 12" the shooter can draw line of sight to, the unit has to pass a Leadership Test or else have to target the Auxilia unit,

 

Edited March 26 by Lord Marshal