Unit of the week CSM 10th edition Unit of the week: Havocs

[Cpt.Danjou]

 

 

CSM 10th edition Havocs

 

This is a topic about Havocs in the 10th edition.

 

• Do you use them?
• How are you using them?
• Do you think they perform well?
• How do you equip them?
• Do you attach them to any specific unit?
• Is there a detachment that they are extra crucial?

 

Other Unit of the Week for Chaos Space Marines can be found in the link below.

 

Chaos Space Marine Unit of the Week Links

 

[Tallarn Commander]

I've used Havocs in almost every game I've played this edition. I love 'em. I use a lascannon squad with various detachments, but they really like being able to advance and shoot in a Raiders detachment. I'd have to say that in most games either my Havocs or my Predator Annihilator is my MVP unit. Their points coming down by 10 points last week was just icing on the cake.

[Brother Nathan]

My autocannon squad has been pants but has drawn significant fire away from tanks. The autocannon on then just cant cut it. Needs a better stat somewhere... str ap shotcount... somewhere. Next game im going to try them as heavy bolters (quite a few of our players have no armour so las can be pointless and iv lots of anti tank ) am looking forward to firing them in cc in fellhammer...

[Iron Father Ferrum]

32 minutes ago, Brother Nathan said:

My autocannon squad has been pants but has drawn significant fire away from tanks. The autocannon on then just cant cut it. Needs a better stat somewhere... str ap shotcount... somewhere. Next game im going to try them as heavy bolters (quite a few of our players have no armour so las can be pointless and iv lots of anti tank ) am looking forward to firing them in cc in fellhammer...

 

Yeah, I used a lascannon squad and an autocannon squad.  One of these has given sterling service.  The other not so much.  If you bump the AC's rate of fire by one, you're stepping on the heavy bolter's toes; if you add to its strength, AP, or damage, you're muscling into the krak missile's territory.  It is a bit of a conundrum in how to improve it, but even when I was using it under the Index detachment and getting both Lethal & Sustained Hits, the autocannons just were not punchy enough.

[Brother Nathan]

I think with the rest of their stats they need ap. They just cant do any role without that ap. The autocannon on my pred shreds pretty decently compared...

[HeadlessCross]

3 hours ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

 

Yeah, I used a lascannon squad and an autocannon squad.  One of these has given sterling service.  The other not so much.  If you bump the AC's rate of fire by one, you're stepping on the heavy bolter's toes; if you add to its strength, AP, or damage, you're muscling into the krak missile's territory.  It is a bit of a conundrum in how to improve it, but even when I was using it under the Index detachment and getting both Lethal & Sustained Hits, the autocannons just were not punchy enough.

Autocannons suffer from no wargear costs. Otherwise, I'd argue all Autocannons should have the same rule that Suppressors have on their special ones to give them another niche. They still wouldn't be the best offensively but you'd at least give your army another tool for survival. 

[AutumnEffect]

I haven't used them, but I love the concept of Heavy Bolter Havocs in Pactbound Zealots marked to Tzeentch.

When you get Sustained Hits 1 and Lethal Hits 1 that both proc on a 5+ you can do some solid damage. It will wipe an MSU Astartes squad in a turn and they can even chip 5 wounds off a Leman Russ.

 

Compared to a Lascannon squad with Mark of Nurgle granting Sustained Hits on a 5+ (their best odds) they are only doing 8 wounds on a Russ so the Heavy Bolters have some solid flexibility.

[Redsun]

I tend to use mine with 4 lascannons on renegade raiders, that move and shoot buff has been very helpful (with the ap buff on objectives too!)

[Muskie]

So does everyone always use four of the same gun? I was thinking of going a different direction, but I have painted four HB squads and four autocannon squads, but I was thinking of going 3 + lascannon because I never have enough anti-armour.

[AutumnEffect]

2 hours ago, Muskie said:

So does everyone always use four of the same gun? I was thinking of going a different direction, but I have painted four HB squads and four autocannon squads, but I was thinking of going 3 + lascannon because I never have enough anti-armour.

There's usually not a good reason to mix different weapons in a squad.
 

You're usually taking a squad of Havocs, or any unit really, with a particular job in mind, such as 'Killing Vehicles' or 'Killing Heavy Infantry'. If you are taking them to kill heavy infantry then taking a Lascannon or two in the squad cuts into that capacity for limited gain.

 

 

One lascannon has only a 30% chance of successfully wounding a Russ after saves which isn't great odds. 

 

Taking a mix of weapons typically gets you the worst of both worlds rather than the best. 

[HeadlessCross]

11 hours ago, Muskie said:

So does everyone always use four of the same gun? I was thinking of going a different direction, but I have painted four HB squads and four autocannon squads, but I was thinking of going 3 + lascannon because I never have enough anti-armour.

If you never have enough anti-armor, buy the four Lascannons. 

 

Despite GW's claim about a mixed squad being flexible (LMAO), it isn't simply because it won't accomplish ANY task, and therefore creates less focus in your list. The squad (AKA the weapons) can only ever be in one spot at a time. It needs to be a tool at those points. 

[Brother Nathan]

if you want mixed its probably better to take missile launchers that can do both than take weapons that are wasted in the wrong situations...

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, Brother Nathan said:

if you want mixed its probably better to take missile launchers that can do both than take weapons that are wasted in the wrong situations...

I probably wouldn't even do that. The Frag round is always unimpressive for killing infantry, especially in an edition where gaining cover isn't hard. If you truly wanted the anti-infantry just go for the Heavy Bolter or Rotor Cannon. 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I think his point is that at least the missile launcher gives you mediocre anti-infantry while keeping mediocre anti-tank.  So at least there is an argument to be made.

 

That said, my personal opinion is that its not worth giving up decent anti-tank to get mediocre anti-tank and mediocre anti-infantry.  Yes, you're giving one model a missile launcher rather than, say, a heavy bolter, impacts your anti-tank less but also gives you less of a benefit... but overall, you are still making the same trade in efficiency at the unit's primary purpose to give it limited utility at a secondary purpose - which, as noted above, is usually a pretty poor idea in 40K.  Personally, I would only want to make where there is a good chance of the unit being otherwise useless in a significant portion of circumstances (say, in a tourney were there is a very good chance of facing a number of foot only armies where your lascannons don't really do anything) - but if that is the case, you need to think about whether a anti-tank havoc unit is the optimal choice at all.

Edited October 25 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Brother Nathan]

By far. I definately wouldnt reqlly take them.  Reqlistically it really boils down to;

tanks... lascannon

Infantry... heavy bolter

Massed hordes ... reaper chaincannon

[HeadlessCross]

3 hours ago, Brother Nathan said:

By far. I definately wouldnt reqlly take them.  Reqlistically it really boils down to;

tanks... lascannon

Infantry... heavy bolter

Massed hordes ... reaper chaincannon

I did like the earlier suggestion of Zealots Havocs using Heavy Bolters and being marked Tzeentch. Kinda gives me reason to use the Autocannon ones I have as proxy. 

[Xenith]

5 hours ago, Brother Nathan said:

By far. I definately wouldnt reqlly take them.  Reqlistically it really boils down to;

tanks... lascannon

Infantry... heavy bolter

Massed hordes ... reaper chaincannon

 

Do we run into the heresy issue that a lascannon is just as good at killing a marine as a heavy bolter? The lascannon just has too many profiles that it's good into, like terms, obliterators, monsters, tanks, character, that it'll always have a target. In a world where they're both the same points, lascannon is king. 

[AutumnEffect]

3 hours ago, Xenith said:

 

Do we run into the heresy issue that a lascannon is just as good at killing a marine as a heavy bolter? The lascannon just has too many profiles that it's good into, like terms, obliterators, monsters, tanks, character, that it'll always have a target. In a world where they're both the same points, lascannon is king. 

 

4 Lascannons into Marine Bodies

 

 

4 Heavy Bolters into Marine Bodies

 

 

 

The heavy bolters harvest more meat.

[Dr. Clock]

I haven't used them myself in 10th, but my frequent CSM opponent rocks 1 las and 1 HB unit as standard in Pactbound. Sustained 5+ lascannons is amazing to the point that I target that unit first above essentially anything. Lethal 5+ bolters also slaps hard.

 

With points down I think even three units could be pretty solid with 2 camping and one reserved to push a flank lane.

 

I wouldn't bother with Leaders in them tbh as the cheapness and range is part of the value and Leaders are just melee blasters for CSM basically...

 

It's funny how comparable the T5 and 3+ BS makes them to both heavy intercessors and eradicators... Though the havocs seem a little better to me honestly (Heavy Ints are a rock not a blaster unit tho).

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

[Xenith]

On 10/26/2024 at 2:46 PM, AutumnEffect said:

 

 

 

The heavy bolters harvest more meat.

 

Thaks for the math - 2w infantry is where the heavy bolter is at then - anything with 3W the HB drops to ~1.65, so the Lascannon comes out on top, just.