Codex: Space Marines | Multi-Part Intercessor & Vanguard Vet Teaser | Legends Culling

[Crimson Longinus]

2 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

I've skipped out on Goonhammer ever since one of their writers complained that Horus Heresy lore made it hard to justify punching people IRL, but had to check this one. 

 

Excuse me, what?!

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

51 minutes ago, FarFromSam said:

 

"We're going to change our name from goonhammer since times have changed and it makes us look unprofessional... :cuss::cuss:damn call us tabletop battles, man. "

 

"Duncemallet" it is!

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Stargate_wars said:

Most of the Primaris in my Deathwatch are built as non kill team units with the exception of 1 assembled Indomitor kill team. While I did buy the spare Phobos and jump pack kits to make Talonstrike and Spectrus kill teams I have yet to build them as I lost exist in building models for a few years due to working the nightshift makes getting games difficult when you sleep will others play.

Your Indomitor Kill Team is MAYBE legal. Maybe. 

[Lathe Biosas]

11 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Your Indomitor Kill Team is MAYBE legal. Maybe. 

[Mogger351]

5 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

I've skipped out on Goonhammer ever since one of their writers complained that Horus Heresy lore made it hard to justify punching people IRL, but had to check this one. Holy moly, you are not kidding! This has it all.

 

Rants (RE the Lion): "why the does he have five separate Datasheet rules now," "Why does a model with T10 W16 2+/3++...," "How come he’s kept both his strike and his sweep profile," "Why does his pistol get buffed..." ending with "What the are we doing here?"
 

(Even more) Profanity: i.e., "There was a point where this :cuss:ing guy was getting buffed in every Dataslate." (I get it. I was in the military; there is no combination of curse words I have not either heard, or used, often. But at a certain point this just comes across as kids doing swears because they know it is bad.)

 

Random one-liners: "Asmodai is a Datasheet which exists." "Speaking of rules you can use to play games of Warhammer 40,000, Lazarus is still here, somehow." "Similarly the Ravenwing Darkshroud is a Datasheet that continues to exist."

 

It all seems very emotional and unprofessional.

It is very emotional but they're also first and foremost just hobbyists with day jobs I think? No idea if they've outgrown that stage now, but there's some degree of maybe appealing to the target demographic going on, who prefer to be casually spoken to I guess?

That aside, it's not like they don't have a point. Some of the balancing choices are certainly... odd.

I'll eat some disagrees and get a bit of abuse most likely but of all the internet spaces I check in, B&C has definitely been the most "woo space marines" about it all with the least concern and that's including Reddit.

[Blindhamster]

Well it IS traditionally a space marine forum

 

quick edit

- doesn't mean the thoughts that the dark angels are overtuned is necessarily wrong. I think based on what we're seeing, base marines are tougher and stronger, but lost reroll support and a number of other things. So who knows how it'll pan out. 

Edited Sunday at 09:08 PM by Blindhamster

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

base marines are tougher and stronger, but lost reroll support and a number of other things. So who knows how it'll pan out. 

Very broadly speaking, I think this will make it easier to balance Marines with point adjustments. The Codex detachment rules are “boring” enough that a lot can be done by tweaking specific dataset costs and enhancement costs. The Supplement chapters feel weird to me because they read like somewhat direct translations of what they do now, without the same power distribution philosophy.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

It is very emotional but they're also first and foremost just hobbyists with day jobs I think? No idea if they've outgrown that stage now, but there's some degree of maybe appealing to the target demographic going on, who prefer to be casually spoken to I guess?

 

I am a hobbyist with a day job too, and I am not writing profanity-laden rants about Dark Angels units. Personally, it does not strike me as a necessary factor in "casual."

[jaxom]

You can take the Goon out of the website title, but you can't take the Goon out of the person I guess?

[DemonGSides]

5 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

It is very emotional but they're also first and foremost just hobbyists with day jobs I think? No idea if they've outgrown that stage now, but there's some degree of maybe appealing to the target demographic going on, who prefer to be casually spoken to I guess?

That aside, it's not like they don't have a point. Some of the balancing choices are certainly... odd.

I'll eat some disagrees and get a bit of abuse most likely but of all the internet spaces I check in, B&C has definitely been the most "woo space marines" about it all with the least concern and that's including Reddit.

 

The BA section of Reddit has been a seesaw of people tearing their golden locks out and wailing about the doom of Arameo Blood Angel ability, with more level heads talking about how, with a little point lowering on Mephiston, BA are mostly fine.  There's some wonkiness with AI not applying to anything outside of the BA sub-'dex, but otherwise, I think it's mostly people upset that things are changing, regardless of what those changes are.

 

I don't think BA's going to be all that different, the issue there is that they've kinda been in the dumpster most of the time since we got our revisions and new kits that were all kinda meh.  So its like multiple waves of meh hitting a bunch of dudes who play a faction full of depressive schizo's, and boy, everything GW is putting out lately is starting to look a lot like Horus.

It'll be okay in time.  Hopefully the codex does us some good with getting some of the Red Thirst back, but in the meantime, I think they'll be better than any non-UM Space Marines, but worse than any of the other Divergent Factions (Except maybe BT?  I'm not sure yet about them.  IDK why they made them lose their separate Army Rule.)  Ultramarines are by far the greatest of the current Space Marine versions, besides Dark Angels.

Edited yesterday at 01:39 AM by DemonGSides

[Mmmmm Napalm]

13 hours ago, jaxom said:

As far as I can tell, it was because the unit(s) in question are currently doing really well in tournaments and the update has either made them better or kept them the same... which is still better because of how they now work with the army rules. I think they meant, "Why didn't GW nerf this unit a bit?"

they contribute and cater to the irritating meta-chasing competitive stuff. I do not think highly of the site and will continue to call them Goonhammer.

 

12 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

I've skipped out on Goonhammer ever since one of their writers complained that Horus Heresy lore made it hard to justify punching people IRL, but had to check this one. Holy moly, you are not kidding! This has it all.

 

Rants (RE the Lion): "why the does he have five separate Datasheet rules now," "Why does a model with T10 W16 2+/3++...," "How come he’s kept both his strike and his sweep profile," "Why does his pistol get buffed..." ending with "What the are we doing here?"
 

(Even more) Profanity: i.e., "There was a point where this :cuss:ing guy was getting buffed in every Dataslate." (I get it. I was in the military; there is no combination of curse words I have not either heard, or used, often. But at a certain point this just comes across as kids doing swears because they know it is bad.)

 

Random one-liners: "Asmodai is a Datasheet which exists." "Speaking of rules you can use to play games of Warhammer 40,000, Lazarus is still here, somehow." "Similarly the Ravenwing Darkshroud is a Datasheet that continues to exist."

 

It all seems very emotional and unprofessional.

It's an extremely insufferable, passive aggressive, snippy way of communicating that unfortunately is rather widespread. I wouldnt even call it "reddit" at this point because tons of people communicate in this manner on twitter, discord, etc. as well. 

Edited yesterday at 03:08 AM by Mmmmm Napalm

[Northern Walker]

2 hours ago, Mmmmm Napalm said:

they contribute and cater to the irritating meta-chasing competitive stuff. I do not think highly of the site and will continue to call them Goonhammer.

 

It's an extremely insufferable, passive aggressive, snippy way of communicating that unfortunately is rather widespread. I wouldnt even call it "reddit" at this point because tons of people communicate in this manner on twitter, discord, etc. as well. 

Insufferable is a fantastic way of describing it. Combined with the competetive focus, it's multiple types of toxic to the hobby.

[Orange Knight]

11 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

It is very emotional but they're also first and foremost just hobbyists with day jobs I think? No idea if they've outgrown that stage now, but there's some degree of maybe appealing to the target demographic going on, who prefer to be casually spoken to I guess?

 

They seem to be part of the GW partner programme?

 

I personally wouldn't include them in that outreach because of what they say or have said in the past. A bit too emotionally charged.

[Mogger351]

11 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

They seem to be part of the GW partner programme?

 

I personally wouldn't include them in that outreach because of what they say or have said in the past. A bit too emotionally charged.

I can count on one hand the number of warhammer oriented content creators who have never swore or let emotive language slip in.

 

I think it's occasionally easy to forget these sites and voices are just people who are passionate about a topic wanting to share their passion. Because their delivery and format has resonated with an audience they've done well for themselves.

 

Iirc quite a few of them read and post on here?

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

7 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

Hopefully the codex does us some good with getting some of the Red Thirst back

I just cannot excuse losing the Red Thirst at all. It's only been our faction defining rule for 20+ years...

[Blindhamster]

8 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

The BA section of Reddit has been a seesaw of people tearing their golden locks out and wailing about the doom of Arameo Blood Angel ability, with more level heads talking about how, with a little point lowering on Mephiston, BA are mostly fine.  There's some wonkiness with AI not applying to anything outside of the BA sub-'dex, but otherwise, I think it's mostly people upset that things are changing, regardless of what those changes are.

 

I don't think BA's going to be all that different, the issue there is that they've kinda been in the dumpster most of the time since we got our revisions and new kits that were all kinda meh.  So its like multiple waves of meh hitting a bunch of dudes who play a faction full of depressive schizo's, and boy, everything GW is putting out lately is starting to look a lot like Horus.

It'll be okay in time.  Hopefully the codex does us some good with getting some of the Red Thirst back, but in the meantime, I think they'll be better than any non-UM Space Marines, but worse than any of the other Divergent Factions (Except maybe BT?  I'm not sure yet about them.  IDK why they made them lose their separate Army Rule.)  Ultramarines are by far the greatest of the current Space Marine versions, besides Dark Angels.

I think this is a fair and level headed view. 

Fundamentally in 10th we spent a good chunk of time being among the top performers, let alone top performers for space marines. We were always going to take a bit of a beating, but seeing our position be near the very bottom of the pack before this release and knowing that it's unlikely to really improve is a little sad. 

For me, I'd rather we had red thirst in some form than the dumb character focused AI - I hadn't even spotted that it requires a BLOOD ANGELS character, makes it even more frustrating to be totally honest (I dislike the blood angels captain, it was a dumb addition, with badly written rules). Overall just feels like at this time it's all fairly dead in the water from a character (as in personality, not characters this time ) perspective. 

 

When we get a more formal update, maybe it'll get fixed, but by the sound of Valraks rumours, that's likely to be about a year out, which is a long time to be disinterested in playing the faction I've almost exclusively played for 30 years lol. 

 

Also why oh why does Dante not synergise with the sanguinary guard detachment 

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

7 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

hat's likely to be about a year out, which is a long time to be disinterested in playing the faction I've almost exclusively played for 30 years lol.

Especially when that's 33% of the edition... and if they stick to the trend, 12th in 2029 will be an index edition where they throw all the rules out anyway.

[appiah4]

21 minutes ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said:

Especially when that's 33% of the edition... and if they stick to the trend, 12th in 2029 will be an index edition where they throw all the rules out anyway.

On the plus side, it will probably be time for things like our beloved Baal Predators and Furioso Dreadnoughts to be moved to Legends in time for the release of new kits, and then the power of Blood Angels will be where it was always meant to be.  Not that GW would ever do something like that to sell models.  Just coincidence.

[Blindhamster]

1 minute ago, appiah4 said:

On the plus side, it will probably be time for things like our beloved Baal Predators and Furioso Dreadnoughts to be moved to Legends in time for the release of new kits, and then the power of Blood Angels will be where it was always meant to be.  Not that GW would ever do something like that to sell models.  Just coincidence.

think the rumour was blood angels are just getting a corbulo model this time around, obviously if its a year out, who knows. But I thought that's all the rumour was.

[Karhedron]

I had also not noticed the BLOOD ANGELS CHARACTER restriction on AI. I guess we will be limited to a very specific set of unit combos to try and spread our keywords where needed.

• Dante with Assault Ints or Van Vets
• Jump Captains with Sanguinary Guard (if allowed, I assume the inherit the Blood Angels faction keyword but I am prepared to be corrected)
• Blood Angels Captains and Sanguinary Priests anywhere you can put them (BGVs perhaps)
• Death Company with Lemartes, DC Captains and Astorath

That's not much of a list and means that we can even gain our Detachment ability from cheaper Support characters like the Lt or Apothecary. I am seriously considering abandoning AI at this point and playing Assault Brethren, Tacticus and maybe WOTD. Overall I am going to reserve judgement until I see the published Detachment rather than the TTT review.

 

Remember we were weak at the start of 10th edition with "Sons of Sanguinius" only giving +1S on the charge. But we got some steady buffs ad our codex was pretty good. Hopefully the same will happen here. If early tournament results show as languishing at our current win-rate, we should get some buffs by Christmas. If not then maybe the sky isn't falling after all. 

[Blindhamster]

yeah my view is also just abandoning our unique detachments entirely. They're non starters IMO

[TheWarmaster]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

I had also not noticed the BLOOD ANGELS CHARACTER restriction on AI. I guess we will be limited to a very specific set of unit combos to try and spread our keywords where needed.

• Dante with Assault Ints or Van Vets
• Jump Captains with Sanguinary Guard (if allowed, I assume the inherit the Blood Angels faction keyword but I am prepared to be corrected)
• Blood Angels Captains and Sanguinary Priests anywhere you can put them (BGVs perhaps)
• Death Company with Lemartes, DC Captains and Astorath

That's not much of a list and means that we can even gain our Detachment ability from cheaper Support characters like the Lt or Apothecary. I am seriously considering abandoning AI at this point and playing Assault Brethren, Tacticus and maybe WOTD. Overall I am going to reserve judgement until I see the published Detachment rather than the TTT review.

 

Remember we were weak at the start of 10th edition with "Sons of Sanguinius" only giving +1S on the charge. But we got some steady buffs ad our codex was pretty good. Hopefully the same will happen here. If early tournament results show as languishing at our current win-rate, we should get some buffs by Christmas. If not then maybe the sky isn't falling after all. 

BGV? 

 

Edit: (Never mind, I think it’s Bladeguard Veterans?) 

Edited 20 hours ago by TheWarmaster

[Orange Knight]

Just to clarify, the new 11th edition BA detachment only works with BA characters?

So it would need the specific BA Captain that can't take a Bolt Rifle/Shield/Plasma Pistol? 
At least the Inferno Pistol is now pretty darn good.

[Indy Techwisp]

8 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Just to clarify, the new 11th edition BA detachment only works with BA characters?

So it would need the specific BA Captain that can't take a Bolt Rifle/Shield/Plasma Pistol? 
At least the Inferno Pistol is now pretty darn good.

 

As far as I was aware, when you're making an army if you include Blood Angels units your army is now Blood Angels and thus all your units gain Blood Angels.

 

Or is that just a 10th Ed thing from the indexes.

[Karhedron]

2 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

As far as I was aware, when you're making an army if you include Blood Angels units your army is now Blood Angels and thus all your units gain Blood Angels.

 

This is where it gets weird. In the 10th edition Space Wolves codex, GW made a distinction between Space Wolves and SPACE WOLVES. There were certain Enhancements and Strats that only applied to the units in the SW Codex and not to units from the main SM codex that were just included in the army.

 

This meant that Grey Hunters were Space Wolves and also SPACE WOLVES. But Intercessors were Space Wolves but not SPACE WOLVES. Clear? 

 

We haven't seen the actual Detachment yet but the review on TTT said BLOOD ANGELS CHARACTER which implies that the same restriction applies. Whether this is intentional or even correct is not clear at this stage but if generic SM Characters do not count for unlocking the Detachment ability then frankly Angelic Inheritors is dead in the water.