Codex: Space Marines | Multi-Part Intercessor & Vanguard Vet Teaser | Legends Culling

[Blindhamster]

23 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Just to clarify, the new 11th edition BA detachment only works with BA characters?

So it would need the specific BA Captain that can't take a Bolt Rifle/Shield/Plasma Pistol? 
At least the Inferno Pistol is now pretty darn good.

I prefer the classic loadout of power sword, bolter and bolt pistol. It annoys me that the rules are so obtuse that a weapon choice locks out a detachment. But again, I think the detachment concept is rubbish anyway.

[Northern Walker]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

 

This is where it gets weird. In the 10th edition Space Wolves codex, GW made a distinction between Space Wolves and SPACE WOLVES. There were certain Enhancements and Strats that only applied to the units in the SW Codex and not to units from the main SM codex that were just included in the army.

 

This meant that Grey Hunters were Space Wolves and also SPACE WOLVES. But Intercessors were Space Wolves but not SPACE WOLVES. Clear? 

 

We haven't seen the actual Detachment yet but the review on TTT said BLOOD ANGELS CHARACTER which implies that the same restriction applies. Whether this is intentional or even correct is not clear at this stage but if generic SM Characters do not count for unlocking the Detachment ability then frankly Angelic Inheritors is dead in the water.

This was so frustrating for trying to build casual lists. Couldn't have a Rune Priest without using Njall's rules, the whole terminator thing where it was logan and arjac or nothing.

Someone needs to give the rules people at GW a good shake. Or just make a subset of rules for tournament people and let everyone else have a good time.

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Northern Walker said:

This was so frustrating for trying to build casual lists. Couldn't have a Rune Priest without using Njall's rules, the whole terminator thing where it was logan and arjac or nothing.

Someone needs to give the rules people at GW a good shake. Or just make a subset of rules for tournament people and let everyone else have a good time.

 

I don't think this really has anything to do with a Tournament v Casual thing, and continuously hammering that drum just does a disservice to both sides; you're letting the 'culture war' win when the real enemy is just bad rules in general.

Neither side of the coin is happy with this (Nor were either side happy when it was the SW with their update), and it's obviously not a balancing thing, it's just ineptness or laziness, whichever is your personal belief.  Tournament players aren't secretly rejoicing or deriding these rules any more than the casual player is; I don't think out of the four BA players here discussing this specific situation, any of us are happy, and I think all of us play varying amounts.  Not an all encompassing sample size, of course, but I think it's VERY obvious the detatchments are mostly big fails, the datasheets run from pretty alright (Dante is legit, so is Mephiston (If a bit expensive at the currently expected price), and even Lemartes is pretty good) to downright "The Godfather" levels of 'Look at how they massacred my boy!' (RIP Sanguinary Priest, you were awesome for like a VERY SHORT period of time after they expanded who you could hang with).  Combined with ANOTHER round of "What can we give our nut-cases to go fight Horus with?" changes, it is not great for anyone, but I do think with some points changing and maybe a few rules edits (Which are easy, considering they're all digital rules for right now), they won't be too bad.

 

I'd rather be a BA right now than a Deathwatch player, so that's at least saying something.  And I still think BA will be a better go to if you are trying to play a custom chapter that likes Jump Pack type units, since they just get so much more access to JP units; just play any of the detatchments out of the core book with the BA units and you'll probably be fine.

Edited September 21 by DemonGSides

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

7 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

just play any of the detatchments out of the core book with your BA units and you'll probably be fine.

fine red Ultramarines with no Red Thirst... Sorry but this is a hill I will continue to fight on. This is my Eternity Gate!

[Northern Walker]

16 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I don't think this really has anything to do with a Tournament v Casual thing, and continuously hammering that drum just does a disservice to both sides; you're letting the 'culture war' win when the real enemy is just bad rules in general.

Neither side of the coin is happy with this (Nor were either side happy when it was the SW with their update), and it's obviously not a balancing thing, it's just ineptness or laziness, whichever is your personal belief.  Tournament players aren't secretly rejoicing or deriding these rules any more than the casual player is; I don't think out of the four BA players here discussing this specific situation, any of us are happy, and I think all of us play varying amounts.  Not an all encompassing sample size, of course, but I think it's VERY obvious the detatchments are mostly big fails, the datasheets run from pretty alright (Dante is legit, so is Mephiston (If a bit expensive at the currently expected price), and even Lemartes is pretty good) to downright "The Godfather" levels of 'Look at how they massacred my boy!' (RIP Sanguinary Priest, you were awesome for like a VERY SHORT period of time after they expanded who you could hang with).  Combined with ANOTHER round of "What can we give our nut-cases to go fight Horus with?" changes, it is not great for anyone, but I do think with some points changing and maybe a few rules edits (Which are easy, considering they're all digital rules for right now), they won't be too bad.

 

I'd rather be a BA right now than a Deathwatch player, so that's at least saying something.  And I still think BA will be a better go to if you are trying to play a custom chapter that likes Jump Pack type units, since they just get so much more access to JP units; just play any of the detatchments out of the core book with your BA units and you'll probably be fine.

The tournament focus is the reason for particular rules interactions like this. Whether people who are into that like it is honestly irrelevant, it's the proliferation of that style of playing the game that has lead us to this point.

 

[DemonGSides]

17 minutes ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said:

fine red Ultramarines with no Red Thirst... Sorry but this is a hill I will continue to fight on. This is my Eternity Gate!

 

Right, if you hadn't intentionally snipped off what I was saying, which was "If you're playing a custom JP pack reliant chapter, BA is still a good choice, especially with the core SM detatchemnts."

I would also prefer to have Red Thirst available somewhere.  No need to, quite literally, fall into the infighting I was talking about in that post lmao.

1 minute ago, Northern Walker said:

The tournament focus is the reason for particular rules interactions like this. Whether people who are into that like it is honestly irrelevant, it's the proliferation of that style of playing the game that has lead us to this point.

 

 

Evidence isn't in support of this; DA don't have anything similar and they are a much more 'tournament focused' chapter to play as.

Sorry, I don't buy this.  I think it's just bad rules writing.  Has nothing to do with Tournament v Casual.

[Northern Walker]

18 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Right, if you hadn't intentionally snipped off what I was saying, which was "If you're playing a custom JP pack reliant chapter, BA is still a good choice, especially with the core SM detatchemnts."

I would also prefer to have Red Thirst available somewhere.  No need to, quite literally, fall into the infighting I was talking about in that post lmao.

 

Evidence isn't in support of this; DA don't have anything similar and they are a much more 'tournament focused' chapter to play as.

Sorry, I don't buy this.  I think it's just bad rules writing.  Has nothing to do with Tournament v Casual.

Oh it's absolutely bad rules writing, but their intent is clearly to limit combinations they perceive as abusable for balance reasons. DA just happen to have avoided the worst excesses of this, maybe because all of their special units are Elites or Fast attack (in the old money) and they dont have any generic characters that I can think of.

 

The result is that the rules limit all the frankly sub-optimal stuff people like me want to do. 

[Mogger351]

The lion is course corrected day 1 to 415. Still a bargain imo.

 

Edit: weekend orks landed on a 60.1% w/r, be amazed if marines aren't similar/higher

Edited September 21 by Mogger351

[jaxom]

Any Red Thirst or other Blood Angel ability has to be considered in the context of a Assault Intercessors with easy access to Lance and/or or Lethal Hits 1 or Sustained Hits 1 on top of their unit rule of +1Str and +1AP on the charge. If AP2 is good enough, then a Chaplain giving Lance and using a Sustained Hits 1 strategem on top of 36 Str 6 AP2 D1 plus whatever the Sergeant has is a lot. 

 

From the flipside, the Sanguinary Priest giving +1T is a lot more valuable now than +1AP because +1AP is so easy to get.

[Jukkiz]

GW is seriously bonkers with todays pricings
If armageddon standard and chaplain, with eradicators is 90€ and eradiacators themselves are 51€, then regular chaplain and Standard should cost 19,50€ a piece. But knowing GW they slap in them propably with new box, one option and ask 34€ a piece. 

Also seriously GW, a single sprue from starter box, that builds 3 Eradicators costs 51€?!

Edited September 21 by Jukkiz

[DarkMark]

@Jukkiz38.50€ is my minimum bet. 

[Dudley Nightshade]

2 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

Edit: weekend orks landed on a 60.1% w/r, be amazed if marines aren't similar/higher

 

Might still be too early to hit the panic button. From my own (anecdotal) experience, new codexes change the meta and win at a higher rate for a while, until everyone has a chance to adapt.

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, Dudley Nightshade said:

 

Might still be too early to hit the panic button. From my own (anecdotal) experience, new codexes change the meta and win at a higher rate for a while, until everyone has a chance to adapt.

I'm not sure what adapting is needed in honesty, there's only so much S6+ weaponry most armies can pack in without compromising it's ability to do anything else.

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Dudley Nightshade said:

 

Might still be too early to hit the panic button. From my own (anecdotal) experience, new codexes change the meta and win at a higher rate for a while, until everyone has a chance to adapt.

Plus it's agreed that the Ork codex needs a few points cuts (and definite bumps) in a few areas. 

[Dudley Nightshade]

@Mogger351 @HeadlessCross that's fair. Historically a new codex took some time to adapt to. That was back in the days of surprising army rules and abilities, though, too.

[Alternis]

4 hours ago, jaxom said:

Any Red Thirst or other Blood Angel ability has to be considered in the context of a Assault Intercessors with easy access to Lance and/or or Lethal Hits 1 or Sustained Hits 1 on top of their unit rule of +1Str and +1AP on the charge. If AP2 is good enough, then a Chaplain giving Lance and using a Sustained Hits 1 strategem on top of 36 Str 6 AP2 D1 plus whatever the Sergeant has is a lot. 

 

From the flipside, the Sanguinary Priest giving +1T is a lot more valuable now than +1AP because +1AP is so easy to get.

I mean, Red Thirst, by rights should be an attack buff and some sort of minor healing.

But I dunno, maybe the idea of BA getting +1 attack and D3 healing every time they charge is scary to them or something.

 

I’m not happy with these changes at all, and GW have honestly dropped the “Baal” with the faction, but I’m trying my best to make it work.

 

Right now, Dante + SG, more SG, and Lemartes + JDC, seem to be the safe way to go for now.

 

Now a few outlets are reporting that Lion El Johnson and Death Watch are getting points nerfs, there’s hope they may adjust BA from its pitiful state at present.

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Alternis said:

I mean, Red Thirst, by rights should be an attack buff and some sort of minor healing

I agree about the attack buff. Re-roll 1s to hit or maybe wound on a charge could be an option. I can also think of a few ways to make it interact with Bood Angel units and possible dataslate rules.

[The Lost Son]

Would it be that the red thirst, actual vows or something less ultramarine for Templars and the flavour for Wolves/DA will be in their respective Codex? I get that it's quite a glaring omission at pres but they're probably holding the good stuff back for actual release as I'd taken it that this is more of a stop gap solution to everyone else being left in the cold.

[Alternis]

7 hours ago, jaxom said:

I agree about the attack buff. Re-roll 1s to hit or maybe wound on a charge could be an option. I can also think of a few ways to make it interact with Bood Angel units and possible dataslate rules.

Well the consumption of blood to self empower and speed up healing faster then space marines already heal is the whole core of the red thirst, the draw back being a growing urge to consume that draws stronger as time passes.

hence the heal D3.

 

here’s my official take. 
Captain Titus’ new righteous fury ability should be removed. 
instead it should be the army wide Red Thirst ability for Blood Angel keyword units.

[Blindhamster]

I suspect that would be a bit much.

 

id just like to see the chapters defining feature since their creation be represented.

 

it has always been about hitting harder and then variably been about hitting faster or more often depending on the edition. 
 

I think liberator assault group has one of the best representations I’ve seen in my many many years as a blood angel player because the base ability was pretty strong (but no moreso than some other armies) but their stratagems perfectly encapsulated the balance blood angels have to have between using the strength from the thirst and succumbing to it with the one benefit or become battleshocked for both benefits. 
 

I would like to see combat doctrines be replaced. By a red thirst rule that baseline is pretty good, or can be boosted significantly but with a loss of control (be that battleshock or some other thing)

[Lathe Biosas]

As the voice of sanity and reason, and someone who has never played the Blood Angels in any medium (or any other Space Marine divergent chapter like Ultramarines and their magic textbook), I can truly say it sucks to lose a rule that feels integral to the style of the army.

 

I assume it would be like removing a giant piece of your Chapter's core identity... like say if your Chapter was known for hunting traitors that broke away and have been on the run for thousands of years, and then one day your Primarch (whose been living in the basement of your mobile headquarters) woke up and said, "All's forgiven, no need to hunt those Fallen chaps anymore!"

 

I assume that's what it's like, but that's just a silly comparison that could never happen... 

 

[Orange Knight]

I agree with some of the displeasure from our Brothers in red and other divergent chapters.

I think the problem relates to giving all Chapters the "Combat Doctrines" rule. Blood Angels should have a thematic "Red Thirst" rule, Space Wolves should have a "Sagas" rule, Dark Angels should have "Grim Resolve" etc etc

 

What these abilities do could have been completely reworked for 11th edition, and made to be equally compelling.

[Northern Walker]

I think the way previous editions handled this was much better, where there was a baseline marine rule (AKSKNF +/- AoD), and then each chapter had it's own thing for flavour on top of that, with every other army following a similar pattern.

 

Unfortunately I just don't see them returning to that style of rule.

[Karhedron]

55 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I think the problem relates to giving all Chapters the "Combat Doctrines" rule. Blood Angels should have a thematic "Red Thirst" rule, Space Wolves should have a "Sagas" rule, Dark Angels should have "Grim Resolve" etc etc

 

What these abilities do could have been completely reworked for 11th edition, and made to be equally compelling.

 

The issue with this is that it might have a larger effect on points costs etc than Combat Doctrines for all. Having Red Thirst, Sagas etc replace Doctrines would probably work if you had full stand-alone codices as per 5th-7th editions. The PDFs that GW are putting out are clearly a stop-gap measure and we don't know at this stage whether the final BA/DA/SW codices will be supplements (as per 8th-10th editions) or full-fat, stand-alone codices.

 

Remember that several units have direct rules interactions with Doctrines (even some BA specific units like Dante). If BAs don't have Doctrines then all these data sheets would need to be reworked.

Edited September 22 by Karhedron

[Mogger351]

4 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

The issue with this is that it might have a larger effect on points costs etc than Combat Doctrines for all. Having Red Thirst, Sagas etc replace Doctrines would probably work if you had full stand-alone codices as per 5th-7th editions. The PDFs that GW are putting out are clearly a stop-gap measure and we don't know at this stage whether the final BA/DA/SW codices will be supplements (as per 8th-10th editions) or full-fat, stand-alone codices.

I'm inclined to think they will be getting stand alone books this time round and this is simply a transitionary phase that people will have to persevere through. If I'm wrong then it's sadly the price to pay for being a supplement and being more consistent with the rest of marine stuffs.