The Castigators

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, to my mind, the Librarians of the Space Marines do a great many things aside from zapping people with lightning on the battlefield. I figure that if you take away the psychic powers, you still have a lot of interesting things you can do. The Librarians, after all, are responsible for the Chapter's records. Without that glorious history, the Space Marines are just reduced to fighting one battle after another without any reason. Space Marines are more than that - they fight for a reason. The Librarians help the Space Marines remember who they are.

[ToyShip]

So in the Castigators, the Librarians are just that, historians. I have a vision in my mind of huge chapels filled with scroll upon scroll of Castigator's history, Initiate Brothers and Librarians copying those texts that are crumbling away.It'd be much like the days before the printing press, each scroll and book hand-illuminated. Just a quick thought.

[Commissar Molotov]

Oh yes, absolutely. The Librariam would hold many of those sorts of things. Many of the Battle-Brothers assigned to serve temporarily as a Librarian will find themselves copying texts and the like to ensure they aren't destroyed. But the Librarians do do more. They also operate as advisors to the Chapter's Commanders, and help to eradicate any potential psychic intrusion into the Chapter.

[Nash Trickster]

[...]the Librarians [...] help to eradicate any potential psychic intrusion into the Chapter.

My question will be "how?"... I was under the impression that you needed a psycker to recognize another. I know there supposedly is technical methods to discover latent psychic "gifts" inside a person, but according to the sources I can think of (Blind by Matthew Farrer comes to mind for example) those methods are pretty unaccurate and some latent psyckers can pass through the screening undetected... (Which would clearly be a problem for the Castigators since any recruit who'd pass the screening undetected and then devellop psycker powers would clearly break the "anti-psycker edict"...) Edited June 15, 2008 by Nash Trickster

[Ferrus Manus]

My question will be "how?"... I was under the impression that you needed a psycker to recognize another. I know there supposedly is technical methods to discover latent psychic "gifts" inside a person, but according to the sources I can think of (Blind by Matthew Farrer comes to mind for example) those methods are pretty unaccurate and some latent psyckers can pass through the screening undetected... (Which would clearly be a problem for the Castigators since any recruit who'd pass the screening undetected and then devellop psycker powers would clearly break the "anti-psycker edict"...)

 

well Molotov did suggest usibng something similar to the Null Field Generator as described in Apocalypse. But I'm not sure if that ideas developed at all.

[Commissar Molotov]

(Which would clearly be a problem for the Castigators since any recruit who'd pass the screening undetected and then devellop psycker powers would clearly break the "anti-psycker edict"...)

 

Certainly. And they'd be killed.

 

[...]the Librarians [...] help to eradicate any potential psychic intrusion into the Chapter.

My question will be "how?"... I was under the impression that you needed a psycker to recognize another. I know there supposedly is technical methods to discover latent psychic "gifts" inside a person, but according to the sources I can think of (Blind by Matthew Farrer comes to mind for example) those methods are pretty unaccurate and some latent psyckers can pass through the screening undetected...

 

It's always been somewhat of a grey area. If we assume that there are very few psykers in the recruitment pool for the Castigators, the problem is greatly reduced. But aside from that, the Librarium would have to have certain pieces of equipment that would prove incredibly harmful for psykers. Items like the null rod/null field generator. Perhaps some of these items would have been donated by the Ordo Hereticus to ensure that the Chapter had some form of defence against the psyker. After all, I can't use Psychic Hoods... :D

[Zekk_Sirius]

Do the Castigators really need 'Librarians' though, I must ask? Surely their role could be better performed by Chaplains?

[Tyrannicide]

Do the Castigators really need 'Librarians' though, I must ask? Surely their role could be better performed by Chaplains?

The Castigators would need Librarians, they record all the Chapter's history, in the Librarium. The Chaplains would have to be indoctrinated into this system, and it would become a mess, since they'd have two duties, now. If there was no one to record all the great events and downfalls of the Castigators, they would most likely crumble. Edited June 15, 2008 by Darth Potato

[Commissar Molotov]

Zekk: What makes you say that? If you're going to advocate me deleting a huge part of my fluff, try to back up your one-sentence statement. ;) Edited June 15, 2008 by Commissar Molotov

[Zekk_Sirius]

Zekk: What makes you say that? If you're going to advocate me deleting a huge part of my fluff, try to back up your one-sentence statement. ;)

 

Apologies Commissar, just sharing my thoughts. Just seems that monitoring battle-brothers could be handled jointly between the Chapters' Apothecaries and Chaplains. While it does leave an empty spot about who records the Chapters' victories and battle details, this could just as easily be handled as a responsibility of the battle-brothers (the Black Templars also lack a Librarium, so must do something similar).

 

Having a rotation of brothers paint their power armour blue to create a Librarium just seems done solely for the sake of honouring the Codex Astartes (a fair enough reason in itself), but if that logic is followed, surely Librarian-psykers are 'sanctioned' as seen in their use by the strongest adherents to the Codex, the Ultramarines?

 

Just my thoughts. ;)

[Fire Fists Captain]

@ Zekk: Smurfs aren't the most Codex adherent Chapter in existence, there are others that follow it more closely, but they are just the Legion of its creator and GW's poster boys.

 

Sorry if that sounds a bit narky, I just wanted to point it out.

 

I suppose you have a point, but that's just one of the big contradictions of the 40k universe: psykers = warp, warp = chaos, chaos = evil and damnation, yet Emperor = psyker etc.

 

There are many different possible views on psykers, and all have lors of evidence to back them up. Personally, I think the no-psykers image fits the hard-line image of the Castigators very well, and the following rules for the rules-sake of painting armour blue, maintaining old records in writing etc is very evocative of the Gothic, crumbling systems that make up the image.

 

Plus it would take loads of effort to change a major part of the Chapter's background, so meh.

[Ferrus Manus]

Having a rotation of brothers paint their power armour blue to create a Librarium just seems done solely for the sake of honouring the Codex Astartes (a fair enough reason in itself), but if that logic is followed,

 

Who said anything about them painting their armour blue? ;)

[Zekk_Sirius]

@ Zekk: Smurfs aren't the most Codex adherent Chapter in existence, there are others that follow it more closely, but they are just the Legion of its creator and GW's poster boys.

 

Sorry if that sounds a bit narky, I just wanted to point it out.

 

No problem Fire Fists Captain, but I can only speak of published Chapters as I don't keep up with all the DIY ones. I do recall the Black Consuls were described as being even more hardline than possibly the Ultramarines, but there's little background on them.

 

I suppose you have a point, but that's just one of the big contradictions of the 40k universe: psykers = warp, warp = chaos, chaos = evil and damnation, yet Emperor = psyker etc.

 

There are many different possible views on psykers, and all have lors of evidence to back them up. Personally, I think the no-psykers image fits the hard-line image of the Castigators very well, and the following rules for the rules-sake of painting armour blue, maintaining old records in writing etc is very evocative of the Gothic, crumbling systems that make up the image.

 

Plus it would take loads of effort to change a major part of the Chapter's background, so meh.

 

Ah, I think you have misunderstood me, I'm not saying the Castigators must have psykers in their ranks (it surprises me actually the Black Templars are the only GW not to have any), but why should they keep the defunct Librarium organization, and all it entails.

 

Records could easily be maintained by Chapter serfs, who record battle-brother accounts, just as Chaplains could watch the ranks for any hint of warp-touched witches.

 

Who said anything about them painting their armour blue? ;)

 

Um, the one in the story "Machinery of Hate" does. Sorry if that's outdated now. ;)

Edited June 15, 2008 by Zekk_Sirius

[The Fabricator General]

I don't kno wwhy but since I stumbled across the acstigators I've gotton the impression that the permanent 'staff' of the librarium were somewhat shunned, in a similar fashion to the techmarines. I don't know where this asumtion came from but it has stuck with me. After reading Zekk's post I also asked 'why'. To me I think these lore keepers should be looked upon like the runepriests of the spacewolves keeping the history of the chapters alive by telling tales of the chapter to new recruits and using the chapters past to advise the commanders of the present. Strangely though that whole concept just makes me think of chaplains.

[Darrell]

I think there's a lot of healthy irony in the fact that, within the Castigators, the Librarium hunts down and eliminates psykers within their ranks. Remember, though, that it's not just a matter of hunting psykers; they also provide tactical advice, record histories and they can fight in warfare. They are still Battle Brothers, after all, just like Techmarines and Apothecaries. You can't expect a Chapter serf to fight like an Astartes, only an Astartes can fight like an Astartes.

 

The Chaplain already has other duties like tending to the spiritual purity of their brethren in addition to running the Reclusiam and perhaps tending to certain rituals. Apothecaries must collect geneseed and watch over newly implanted organs. Why add responsibility to them when the Librarium still serves a valid purpose even without psykers. Remember there's also a school of thought within the Imperium that says power is better when distributed amongst seperate parties, instead of allowing one person to handle multiple duties.

 

As for psykers being used by other Chapters, remember that the Emperor specifically spoke against the practice of sorcery and condemned Magnus and his Thousand Sons for it. There are exceptions, like Navigators, which the Emperor sanctioned but he was not as approving with Librarians. The Castigators are simply following the Emperor's advice.

 

As for Codiciers being looked down upon, I believe Mol wrote a story a while back that focused on a Codicier with a Castigators attachment and he seemed to encounter a lot of hostility from certain individuals. The Castigators are extremely bigoted and opinionated, and even the title "Codicier" carries connotations of the witch that they abhor. Something akin to the stigma that is now attached to the title of "Warmaster".

[Commissar Molotov]

Zekk: What makes you say that? If you're going to advocate me deleting a huge part of my fluff, try to back up your one-sentence statement. ;)

 

Apologies Commissar, just sharing my thoughts. Just seems that monitoring battle-brothers could be handled jointly between the Chapters' Apothecaries and Chaplains. While it does leave an empty spot about who records the Chapters' victories and battle details, this could just as easily be handled as a responsibility of the battle-brothers (the Black Templars also lack a Librarium, so must do something similar).

 

Having a rotation of brothers paint their power armour blue to create a Librarium just seems done solely for the sake of honouring the Codex Astartes (a fair enough reason in itself), but if that logic is followed, surely Librarian-psykers are 'sanctioned' as seen in their use by the strongest adherents to the Codex, the Ultramarines?

 

Just my thoughts. ;)

 

Don't misunderstand me - I'm glad to be getting comments from people that don't typically comment on the Castigators. You're right that monitoring the Battle-Brothers could be handled by the Chaplains and the Apothecaries. They would no doubt have a hand in it as well - in a Chapter as concerned with purity as the Castigators, no small effort would be expended on ensuring Battle-Brothers were not inadvertently corrupted. Whilst the Black Templars lack Librarians, I've not heard anything that suggests they lack a Librariam. It's possible. If so, it just adds another way for me to be distinct from the Templars, my closest 'competition' in the 40k universe. And whilst the Ultramarines use Librarians, the Castigators don't. The Castigators are religious zealots, and one of those deliciously fun things about zealots are the ways that gaping contradictions can exist in their belief system, and they can willfully ignore them, even though they're staring them in the face.

 

The Castigators hate psykers - but the Emperor's a psyker! Gasp!

 

There are many different possible views on psykers, and all have lors of evidence to back them up. Personally, I think the no-psykers image fits the hard-line image of the Castigators very well, and the following rules for the rules-sake of painting armour blue, maintaining old records in writing etc is very evocative of the Gothic, crumbling systems that make up the image.

 

Plus it would take loads of effort to change a major part of the Chapter's background, so meh.

 

I'm not concerned about effort. I'm not one of those namby-pamby Chapter creators afraid to touch their beloved magnum opus. If it needs changing, I'll change it. Numerous people would attest to that. But I don't think it needs changing. Perhaps it needs detailing and defining, but not removing. As you said, the idea of maintaining the office of the Librarian without the psychic powers is evocative of the Imperium, maintaining the facade even though the foundations have crumbled away. (Thanks for posting, by the way!)

 

Records could easily be maintained by Chapter serfs, who record battle-brother accounts, just as Chaplains could watch the ranks for any hint of warp-touched witches.

 

Perhaps serfs help in the Librariam itself, but not on the battlefield. Ultimately, I want the Castigators to have Librarians. It doesn't have to go any further than that. But adding further duties to the Chaplains and Apothecaries isn't what I want to do. Plus, there's irony that our Librarians watch for psychic taint and help protect the Chapter against psykers, as opposed to other Chapters, whose Librarians ARE the psykers.

 

Who said anything about them painting their armour blue? ;)

 

Um, the one in the story "Machinery of Hate" does. Sorry if that's outdated now. ;)

 

You're entirely right - the Castigator Librarians do wear blue armour.

 

I don't kno wwhy but since I stumbled across the acstigators I've gotton the impression that the permanent 'staff' of the librarium were somewhat shunned, in a similar fashion to the techmarines. I don't know where this asumtion came from but it has stuck with me. After reading Zekk's post I also asked 'why'. To me I think these lore keepers should be looked upon like the runepriests of the spacewolves keeping the history of the chapters alive by telling tales of the chapter to new recruits and using the chapters past to advise the commanders of the present. Strangely though that whole concept just makes me think of chaplains.

 

Nice to hear from you again, Fab-Gen. I think it's actually only the zealots that would distrust the Librarians. When I started writing Machinery of Hate, I tried to make Chaplain Punitus the only one that disliked Acastus (the Codicier) openly. I think certain zealots might dislike the office of the Librarian just because of the negative connotations it might hold. The moderates, however (typically the bulk of the Chapter) would respect the Librarians for their wisdom and their accomplishments.

 

Chaplains might tell stories of mighty victories and fallen heroes to inspire. Librarians record whatever the outcome. They would do things like compile information on allies and enemies, record the tales from the Dreadnoughts, catalogue the Chapter's captured trophies and advise Captains when it came to operating alongside other Imperial organisations. As I said before, they don't have to set things on fire to be Librarians.

[Zekk_Sirius]

I think it's actually only the zealots that would distrust the Librarians. When I started writing Machinery of Hate, I tried to make Chaplain Punitus the only one that disliked Acastus (the Codicier) openly. I think certain zealots might dislike the office of the Librarian just because of the negative connotations it might hold. The moderates, however (typically the bulk of the Chapter) would respect the Librarians for their wisdom and their accomplishments.

 

Could it not be argued that the 'zealots' might have a certain degree of respect too, however? After all, the Librarians' function within the Castigators is finding and eliminating nascent witches in their ranks.

 

The witch-haters hate the witch-killers? ;)

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, of course. It's certainly not black-and-white. One thing I'm trying to show with the Castigators is that Space Marines are people too, with a person's emotions. You can have mixed admiration and doubt in someone, I think.

[The Fabricator General]

So I'm guessing that that 'librarians' deal in fact. Where as the chaplains act as the 'spin doctors' taking the acounts of the librarians and feeding the bits that'll get the blood going to the masses.

 

I know I sugessted that the librarians should be respected as lore keepers but on the flipside could it be that they are seen as aloof and difficult to read because they have a less imperium tinted outlook on the chapters history.

[Commissar Molotov]

Hah, perhaps. The Librarians are the party-poopers. :P

 

They are perhaps aloof, but I think you can respect someone that's aloof. They might frustrate and annoy, but they're deserving of respect. Hrm.

[The Fabricator General]

I'd get pissed off with someone if they refused to hate everything that I hated.

[Tyrannicide]

I'd get pissed off with someone if they refused to hate everything that I hated.

:P Those damn Chaplains!

[Commissar Molotov]

I'd get pissed off with someone if they refused to hate everything that I hated.

 

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z121/mnesimache/casti-low.jpg

Welcome to the Castigators, brother. :P

Edited June 15, 2008 by Commissar Molotov

[Heru]

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z121/mnesimache/casti-low.jpg

The wrongness of that image is painful to my eyes...

[ToyShip]

The wrongness of that image is painful to my eyes...

 

But it's so,......B-E-A-UTIFUL! :)

Edited June 16, 2008 by ToyShip