The Castigators

[StratoKhan]

Thanks for the compliment, Khan. It was actually the IA: Flaming Swords that inspired my to jazz up the Castigators' IA. :)

 

Well, I'm glad it was of some kind of use. I'm rewriting that IA as it seems too unimaginative.

 

The only thing that comes to mind would be that perhaps you could add a link to the Castigators fiction you wrote?

Edited May 3, 2007 by StratoKhan

[ironloki]

A very nice read. Not much do say since this has probably been through the OL shredder several times to purify its contents for maximum efficiency ;)

 

You do seem to be missing a battle cry though unless they don't have one?. Nice touch with the artwork. I love a good picture or two.

[mekboy bigdakka]

There is more Castigators fiction Molotov? Please add them to the tail end of the IA in the Librarium and I will approve the revision immediately.

 

For those of you who might not know, The Castigators have been preserved for antiquity in the Librarium. IA: Castigators :P

[Commissar Molotov]

At the insistence of Mekboy Bigdakka. ;)

 

However, that doesn't mean that I won't be striving to improve upon the Castigators. I'm an interminable fiddler, and I want the Chapter - and the article - to be the absolute best it can be.

 

With regards to the fiction I've written, I've put it on hold. I can do First-Person narrative, but I'm completely blank when it comes to Space Marine plots. They tend to be incredibly bland things - go somewhere, kill something, and have the tiniest moment of introspection as the dust settles. I'm waiting for Abnett's Brothers of the Snake to see how he treats the venerable Astartes.

 

With regards to the Battle-Cry I've never had one in mind for the Castigators, if only because most sound incredibly cheesy. "We are the Emperor's will made manifest" works. But then so does "GO TEAM!" so, y'know, I'm torn. :P

 

More soon. ;)

[Colrouphobic]

Suggested Battle-Cry/Battle-prayer:

 

Pie Domine,

dona eis requiem.

 

 

-Compassionate Lord, grant them rest.

 

I find that quite...suiting.

It hints at what the punishment the Castigators are going to give the enemies of the Emperor (the "Lord") is.

It also gives the Emperor the trait of being strong enough to grant his enemies eternal rest rather then the eternity of torment many would ascribe the Chaos gods.

 

Latin, because "High Gothic" always makes me think latin...

Edited May 4, 2007 by Colrouphobic

[mekboy bigdakka]

Well I didn't get the job cause I was shy Molotov. :)

 

Only way to improve is to get feedback my friend. Not all fiction has to be a galaxy spanning space opera, occasionally pure arse kicking is acceptable ;)

 

I like phobic's suggestion very much. It suits the Castigators pious nature to a tee.

[Aurelius Rex]

It has been a while since I last reviewed the Castigators IA, and after reviewing Darrell’s Judicators and Barret’s Thousand Swords last week the time seems fitting to look at it again in light of the other Vocates chapters.

 

I was one of a number of people who saw the Castigators IA during its development process, and hopefully the feedback was useful. I certainly wouldn’t have spent the time I did on what I thought was a bad article – the Castigators were and are a fine chapter that I was happy to put the energy into seeing if I could help improve further.

 

There have been a number of different versions since the first time it was published, with the most obvious, eyecatching change is the artwork. This is very good and adds a lot to the feel of the article. It spans a number of different styles; I assume this is because the pieces come from different artists. My personal favourite has to be that depicting Captain Lycidius. It is clean, marvellously detailed, and the crown of thorns rather than laurels seems to fit perfectly with the theme and character of the chapter. Who provided this artwork, by the way? Whoever it is they deserve a raise. ;) The other pieces are good examples of marine art, but they could have as well graced any marine chapter IA, and though far better than anything I can do (I can barely hold the right end of a paintbrush) they did not give me the same feeling of Castigatoryness.

 

I have spoken with you in detail in the past about most aspects of the IA, so there is little to take issue with. The new sections – new since the first version was posted here – integrate well, but like you have said yourself an IA is never finished, and each re-reading brings things that might do with tweaking. Here are the things that came to the fore during this pass.

 

Losanco – I discussed with you before about the practicality of how the primitive peoples on the darkside of Losanco would actually be able to exist. Ash by Mary Gentle (great book, by the way) has a very good examination of what happens to a primitive population when the sun is blotted out from their lands. Certain elements of this have been addressed I see, but to be honest to me they still don't fully convince me that what I take to be a tribal / blackpowder-level society would be able to survive on the darkside.

 

The original questions I had was where would they get their food, how would they avoid freezing to death… effectively how do they and their society exist in almost total darkness. Planets in a similar situation like Mordian with a link to the rest of the Imperium or a high tech base can get round the harshness of the environment with generators, insulated buildings and hydroponic plants. Mycenae is also a high tech planet where normal inhabitation is restricted to the thin strip of land around the terminator in permanent twilight, and protected from the full glare of radiation. It can also have things it requires flown in from orbit.

 

If I understand it the darkside Losancans have no formal link to, or visitors from the wider Imperium, such as the Ecclesiarchy, and are little more than black-powder feudal tribes? The newest section has addressed this a little, with mention of the warm winds blowing from the day-side, and growing plants by moonlight. Even with this they would have to be very special (xenos? Genetically engineered?) plant crops. How would a truly primitive society get warmth to live and, light to do pretty much anything? Is there for instance fossil fuel reserves of coal or perhaps promethium that they can use, because if not there will be no trees to burn. I would suggest considering that they trade or otherwise have some contact with the wider imperium, if not from the Castigators, then from Ecclesiarchy missionaries. Given the nature of their beliefs in the Emperor it seems to me that someone has been feeding their belief system somewhere along the way.

 

+++ Edit - The other way to explain how they were able to exist for the thousands of years before they were rediscovered is to have them be more than simple primitives, for instance that they have some level of technology that aloows them to feed themselves and keep warm, even if it is just the remnants of the original crashed spaceship that took them there, and they are just scavenging off the slowly degrading systems, or based their small societies on STC machines (Hydroponics, generators, simple shelter, the bare essentials so starflight is waaaay out!) that over the years are becoming more and more degraded and inefficient... The Imperium in microcosm. :D +++

 

 

On now to some text that could perhaps be tightened and general queries.

 

Origins:

 

The reasons for these measures would seem to be rooted in the after-effects of the thirteenth Astartes founding, the so-called 'Dark Founding'. All records of this founding...

Having three 'founding's so close together felt a little clumsy. Two is perhaps inevitable and unavoidable, but is there a way to smooth the last one out?

 

Other craft were donated by established chapters such as the Ultramarines.

Didn't the Black Consuls do this too? Admittedly the UM are their Grandparent chapter, but wouldn't the parent chapter be the most likely to gift such things to the young outfit?

 

Geneseed:

 

Any neophytes that exhibit signs of mutation are usually inducted as serfs or dissected as subjects of study in an attempt to determine what went wrong.

 

Given the hatred of mutants from both chapter and homeworld culture, the section in bold seems not to fit at all. Why would they have mutants anywhere near them, let alone serving alongside them and tending their ships, equipment and arms, even guarding them while they sleep? The dissection bit is wholly appropriate though. :)

 

This (arguably excessive) thoroughness means...

Are the parentheses required here? It seems to to not fit in at all with the style of IA writing.

 

 

Hmm... that's lunchtime over. More later if you are interested, Mol.

 

Aurelius.

Edited May 8, 2007 by Aurelius Rex

[Commissar Molotov]

Sure; more is always good. I was actually clicking into the Liber to fiddle with the IA, but time is ticking and I've a two-hour exam on War of the Worlds pretty soon.

 

Thanks for the critique, John; I look forward to whatever you can pick up. Barret and Tubal have provided ideas before for the homeworld. I guess I'll do some research and collation before returning with some new ideas.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

That is one of the most amazing IA's I have ever seen. My hat is eternally off to you Molotov. I wish my own IA could be as complete but I dont have the same resources you have I geuss. Anyway the FanArt is extremely well dont and I have to agree that it definetly feels "official". Better than the Official IA's in my mind.

 

Bloody hell thats good. I just re-read it before I finish up. Ergh. Well, if there is anything I could say is that, THAT IA sets the standard. Nothing else I have read so far even comes close. Mind you I havent been on B&C for that long really so I dont mean to offend anyone :D .

 

Im going to see if I can patch up my 1st draft IA with inspiration from yours as to how great you can make something if you put the effort in!

 

-Grey Hunter Ydalir

[Commissar Molotov]

Ydalir: It might be worthwhile for you to read this: it also references a number of other decent IAs, including the Brazen Claws and the Grief Bringers.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Thanks Molotov, I appreciate the help.

[Aurelius Rex]

More...

 

Homeworld:

 

The Losancans saw the Castigators' actions and came to see them as terrible angels, ferocious emissaries of a God-Emperor that watches over them all the time to ensure they carry out their divine task...

As you are describing the actions of a divine being, 'all the time' seems to lack... gravitas. Would a word such as 'ceaselessly' fit in better with the majesty you are trying to convey?

 

Malformed babies were killed rather than be left to survive, suffocated often by their own mothers or family members.

Something about this line - despite its content - seems tentative. I think it is the 'rather than be left to survive' part. A baby, especially one on an intensely hostile world like Losanco, would need active care for it to live, and 'left to survive' indicates that left alone or abandoned they might survive. Given the xenophobic, bigoted nature of the Imperium in general, obviously mutated babies would doubtless be cast out on the vast majority of worlds, but Losanco is even more hardline than them, so you need to up the ante. Could I suggest a replacement line:

 

Babies showing even the most minor of malformations are hurriedly and quietly killed by their own mothers or families, such is the stigma of giving birth to a mutant offspring.

 

This could tie in with what the Castigators themselves do with mutant geneseed / neophytes / marines that become contaminated fighting the Ruinous powers?

 

 

Chapter Cult and Belief System:

 

The celebration every 14 years that lasts 14 days still seems out of place... somehow not something that fits in with the rest of the castigator's character, even when linked in with them celebrating their position as 14th founding. The celebrations themselves seem about sombre enough - I suppose there needn't be any actual castigation of themselves, but of their captured enemies...? Overall, the idea of a get-together is good, although it needs a proper name as befits such an important ceremony in the chapter's calendar, and I definitely feel the over-reliance on the number 14 is something to move away from - you don't want it to come over as trite. :P

 

 

Last section later. Hope the WotW exam went well.

 

Aurelius.

[Commissar Molotov]

Thanks for the feedback. Now I'm back, I can hopefully try to put some of these ideas to bed and work on improving these guys.

[Spartans]

I like what you have, created looks good also read well.

 

I do have to agree with Aurelius on the celebration every 14 years. I too love the notion that the chapter gather to celabrate its founding (damn why did I not think of that) but again agree that you use 14 too much.

 

Maybe have that it is celebrated every year but in the month of the founding 14 marines are chosen for something, like they get sent on some sort of grail or only 14 Neophytes are inducted into the chapter in that month if you want the numebr 14, just some of the cuff ideas and not very good ones but might get you thinking.

 

Keep it up and look forward to see where you take your guys.

[Custom Hero]

Actually, you could use the number 14 to hold some sort of sacred reference for them...

[Commissar Molotov]

Aurelius:

 

The artwork of Hero-Captain Lycidius was provided by SeerBrun. You can check out more of his artwork as part of his 40k Comic - Immortal Enemies.

 

With regards to Losanco, Barret and Tubal posted a number of interesting ideas about the planet. Obviously, I have to keep the world distinct and different from Mycenae.

 

Every time I read about a night side/day side planet, I think of Ryloth, the Twi'lek homeworld in Star Wars. I don't know why, and it doesn't have much relevance...

[Perhaps] similarly to the Twi'leks, they live primarly in the twilight zone (dun dun dunnnn) between night and day, staying out of the radiated day side, but far enough out of the night side to avoid freezing. In my mind, that last would make their plight much more dramatic and precarious, literaly caught between the light and dark, between mutation and freezing doom. I really like this, and I think it's a very iconic element of the 40k universe. Freedom and liberty are the doom of mankind and, here, daylight is death and nighttime little safer.

 

One way the darksiders could get energy and so forth is this: if the light side is sufficently hot it would create a very large imbalance in air pressure compared to the dark side. This would probably create strong winds that would equalize the temperature somewhat and could provide the darksiders with power for hydroponic vats or other food production. Two birds with one stone

 

I do see Losanco as a tribal-esque world, certainly. Their technology is rather limited. Survival is difficult, but that's really what I'm looking for it. I see it as evocative of 40k for me - The galaxy is a bleak, dangerous and inhospitable environment for Humanity, beset on all sides by enemies too hideous to contemplate and clinging on to the last decaying vestiges of a golden age long passed.

 

With regards to food, there is the option of Volcanic activity/geothermal heat that Barret has posited previously. I've also considered that at least elements of the Losancans live within Caves, that might at least provide them with some heat. I don't really want them to have a link with the wider Imperium - if only because I like that they are isolated in their ignorance - one more element that's helped them foster their extreme religious bigotry. After all, they see themselves as being trapped in their purgatory - and the only way out is to eradicate mutation.

 

The idea about the 'Imperium in Microcosm' is perhaps a good one, and is perhaps evocative of the original 'Techno-Barbarian' ideas that form the veeeery basics of the Space Marines. I never wanted the Losancans to be barbarians, even if they were in tribes.

 

With regards to Serfs, you have a point, but I wasn't sure what to do. Warriors of Ultramar suggests that the Mortifactors have something in the order of 9,000 serfs. How can the Castigators have serfs if the general populace aren't aware of their existence, and they're going to kill off every failed initiate?

 

It makes it awkward for me. The most obvious idea is that the Inquisition could provide some labour, but it makes things awkward and makes the Castigators too much into Inquisitorial lapdogs - whilst the Castigators have connections with the Inquisition, it's certainly not in the same way as it is with the Scions.

 

With regards to the Chapter celebration, it's something I like, so I think I'm going to be pig-headed and keep it in regardless. It fits for me, and remains a nice touch. It was far more subtle before the Astartes Vocates came along, of course... :angry:

[StratoKhan]

There are many places in the Imperium that could provide you with a regular shipment of slaves/criminals.

 

You can think of a suitable reason why they'd do this, I'm sure.

 

Not everything needs to come from in-system.

[Commissar Molotov]

But would any Marine Chapter want to use crminals for such an important task? I don't know. It could certainly work, and I like the irony of a Chapter using such forced labour to survive. I don't know.

[StratoKhan]

Lobotomise the scum.

 

Use placid slaves for any more trust-based tasks that require thought.

 

Make brutal and public examples of any dissenters.

 

I'd be such an evil dictator.

 

++EDIT++ One shipment is all it takes, assume an even mix of males and females, and you could have a separate section for the slaves/bondsmen/serfs where they could even breed. The next generation wouldn't socialise as criminals, they'd be slaves from birth. Could be a bit too 'family' for the Castigators, but it could work. Think of Dickens-esque living conditions and even crappier jobs and life expectancy. ++EDIT++

Edited May 17, 2007 by StratoKhan

[Barret]

Some thoughts:

 

I like Aurelius' proposed change to the sentence about discarding the malformed.

 

StratoKahn's idea of a separate breeding population for maintaining a supply of Chapter Serfs has merit, I think. They could be the descendants of the original chapter serfs that came to Loscano with the Castigators, or they could be gotten from another source. However, I'm not sure how much that needs to be detailed in the IA...

 

 

The original questions I had was where would they get their food, how would they avoid freezing to death… effectively how do they and their society exist in almost total darkness. Planets in a similar situation like Mordian with a link to the rest of the Imperium or a high tech base can get round the harshness of the environment with generators, insulated buildings and hydroponic plants. Mycenae is also a high tech planet where normal inhabitation is restricted to the thin strip of land around the terminator in permanent twilight, and protected from the full glare of radiation. It can also have things it requires flown in from orbit.

 

I suspect that the primary solution to the food problem with a very protein-rich diet, living off the flesh of whatever horrible and gribbly things they can hunt and kill. Any plant-based nutrition could be harvested from stuff that grows in caves or in underground rivers, maybe, or there could be limited farms or plantations around geothermal vents...

 

+++ Edit - The other way to explain how they were able to exist for the thousands of years before they were rediscovered is to have them be more than simple primitives, for instance that they have some level of technology that aloows them to feed themselves and keep warm, even if it is just the remnants of the original crashed spaceship that took them there, and they are just scavenging off the slowly degrading systems, or based their small societies on STC machines (Hydroponics, generators, simple shelter, the bare essentials so starflight is waaaay out!) that over the years are becoming more and more degraded and inefficient... The Imperium in microcosm. laugh.gif +++

 

This is always how I envisioned the Loscanons, kind of analogous to the pre-Muad'Dib Fremen, I guess. They have sufficient technology to supplement their "traditional" methods and enable them to survive in a horrible climate, but they don't totally understand that technology, nor do they have the knowledge, tools or resources to start improving on it. They can survive, but not thrive.

[Skallagrim]

Thanks for the inspiration!

 

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/226/505656698_b4ec645094_o.jpg

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, wow!

 

Thanks for the picture, Skallagrim. I'm certainly glad that the Castigators inspired you so much. :rolleyes:

[AWOL]

It's important to keep in mind that to have plant life, it is only necessary to have a source of energy for them to harvest. We have a very earth centric view of plants needing sunlight to power chlorophyll for photosynthesis for survival, but on a world like the Castigators' a different system entirely could have evolved, giving the local flora adaptations for collecting geothermal energy or cosmic radiation, or Emperor knows what else to grow off of. It's important to remember this is an alien world, and even the worst xenophobes will grit their teeth and try some of this weirdo alien food if it means avoiding starving to death.

[Commissar Molotov]

Thanks for that, AWOL. I admit that in many ways I've been a bit Earth-centric there. Not being a biologist, I didn't want to strain the bounds of credibility too far.

 

I'll have to examine Losanco with a bit more detail in my next round of changes.

Edited February 5, 2008 by Commissar Molotov

[Commissar Molotov]

I've updated the IA to V4.5. Comments appreciated.