What 2014 will bring

[Memento Of Prospero]

Tyranids care very much.

 

Initiative 5 on the charge as just too strong as an armywide special rule. Especially when attack volumes and power weapons are involved.

[knife&fork]

In what situation would I5 make a huge difference vs I4? To the point that it becomes 'over powered'?

 

The only way that would happen is massive discounts on assault squad together with discounted power weapons on non characters. 

 

That I5 was pretty much the only thing that made assault squads worthwhile in 5th, it was the slight edge we needed. Just getting I5 on the charge wouldn't be nearly enough to make assault units in 6th overpowered.

[Memento Of Prospero]

In what situation would I5 make a huge difference vs I4? To the point that it becomes 'over powered'?

 

The only way that would happen is massive discounts on assault squad together with discounted power weapons on non characters. 

 

That I5 was pretty much the only thing that made assault squads worthwhile in 5th, it was the slight edge we needed. Just getting I5 on the charge wouldn't be nearly enough to make assault units in 6th overpowered.

 

When you chop your opponent down before he can even strike back in a marine Vs Marine scenario, it makes your opponent feel powerless. Sergeant pretty much win challenges for free. It also allows you to end combat before retaliation if there is no more models left in BTB contact at the end of that Initiative step.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

@Wolf_Pack: try playing against Emperor's Children every other week and then not want the I5 on the charge back. That thing gave me a fighting chance!

[Memento Of Prospero]

@Wolf_Pack: try playing against Emperor's Children every other week and then not want the I5 on the charge back. That thing gave me a fighting chance!

Considering the competitive viability of the III legion, I think we definitely do not want the same tax imposed.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

 

@Wolf_Pack: try playing against Emperor's Children every other week and then not want the I5 on the charge back. That thing gave me a fighting chance!

Considering the competitive viability of the III legion, I think we definitely do not want the same tax imposed.

They can be pretty competitive to be honest. Decent AP2 flamers and big guns, plus sonic weapons with ignores cover. And they have the I5 which if they can win a challenge in CC(and lets be honest, they can) then they can decimate whole squads anyways they want.

[Cronhour]

 

In what situation would I5 make a huge difference vs I4? To the point that it becomes 'over powered'?

 

The only way that would happen is massive discounts on assault squad together with discounted power weapons on non characters. 

 

That I5 was pretty much the only thing that made assault squads worthwhile in 5th, it was the slight edge we needed. Just getting I5 on the charge wouldn't be nearly enough to make assault units in 6th overpowered.

 

When you chop your opponent down before he can even strike back in a marine Vs Marine scenario, it makes your opponent feel powerless. Sergeant pretty much win challenges for free. It also allows you to end combat before retaliation if there is no more models left in BTB contact at the end of that Initiative step.

well from a fluff perspective blood angels are supposed to be better in assault then otther marine chapters, and from a balance perspective we're more expensive with fewer tools than other marines, hell other armies. If we're going to keep up in 6th a points reduction and some little tools to make assault viable army wide without just giving us a deathstar unit. small rules such as the int buff, or being able to buy an extra cc weapon for tac squads would go some way to helping that.

[ElectricPaladin]

Cronhur's got it. Blood Angels assault marines should be able to take other MEQs in melee. That's the point. If they can't, then they aren't better at melee than other MEQs... and then what are they? As it stands now, I won't charge into melee with anything in power armor except Sisters of Battle because I can't be sure enough that I'll win - even with Feel No Pain and Strength 5 on the charge - and still have enough of a squad left over to achieve any other tactical goals.

 

Does this mean that I can't win games? Of course not. But, it does mean that I can't win games with my Blood Angels and feel that they are playing like Blood Angels. And that's what a codex is supposed to do, isn't it? Provide rules that allow an army to feel, on the tabletop, like it does in the fluff?

 

Maybe the solution isn't Initiative - maybe it's something else. Give the Blood Angels another way to survive combat. Make my army cheaper so instead of a squad that lives through the combat, I can have... another squad. I don't know, but they need something.

[Leonaides]

Like i said- ws5 on the charge, against marines you'd get more hits, so more wounds, even if you werent hitting first. We're better, not necessarily faster.

[Durundal]

I agree with the WS5. Against MEQ we hit on 3s and get hit on 5s. I would like to be able to field a full assault squad at the same price I field a tact squad now. Maybe cheaper.

[Blindhamster]

WS5 would be pretty cool... but i doubt it, i still think we should just have army wide rage, possibly in addition to army wide furious charge.

[ElectricPaladin]

Yeah... WS 5 would do the trick. It's not the same as killing them before they kill you, but I think it would do something to the math that would let us win fights.

[Leonaides]

We'd still get hit on 4's. It would have to be on charge or maybe first round of any combat, but its the sort of buff for our troops that isnt also a nerf for othet peoples

[Blindhamster]

if its on the charge only, I doubt we'd get WS5, just doesnt seem very in keeping with the rest of the rules they release... maybe an option to upgrade WS for veterans at a cost... I could easily see that. But I just doubt we'll see anything beyond everyone getting furious charge and MAYBE some other USR

[Memento Of Prospero]

40k is a game of degrees, not precision. Blood Angels may be better than other chapters in close combat, but not enough to make significant difference. For example, the difference inbetween a guardsman and a marine is huge, but the stat difference is just 1 point above. We do not outclass other Astartes by that much, try as we might.

 

It's the little things that will make us shine. Fleet, zealot, rampage, furious charge, feel no pain, rage, relentless.

[Silverson]

I thought the benefit of the initiative was because against shooty armies (us being assault based) by the time we actually made it into combat our numbers were so depleted that we were getting over run in our own specialty area (the assault). I'm not sure if the initiative bonus is the answer but I think we need something and ws 5 seems a bit op because we would be at character stats then.

[Durundal]

We need an ability that will keep us alive before we charge/get into BTB and something that makes us a step above in CC. I like the idea of giving assault squads the ability to upgrade it to have a priest.

[Blindhamster]

I'd just have priests not take up a slot, have them be a max of 1 per squad (any squad), and remove the bubble so they're more in line with everyone else's apothecaries, give them a second wound but otherwise the same stats, have them provide FNP and some other USR, perhaps Zealot then still cost 50 points 

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Maybe have Sanguinary Novitiates as an upgrade for any given squad member or as a joining character, Sanguinary Priests as up to 3 or 5 to an Elite Slot with two Wounds who have some further bonus, and Sanguinary High Priests as an HQ who can take Artefacts and other hardcore wargear.

 

Cronhur's got it. Blood Angels assault marines should be able to take other MEQs in melee. That's the point. If they can't, then they aren't better at melee than other MEQs... and then what are they? As it stands now, I won't charge into melee with anything in power armor except Sisters of Battle because I can't be sure enough that I'll win - even with Feel No Pain and Strength 5 on the charge - and still have enough of a squad left over to achieve any other tactical goals.

 

So it's not that you aren't better in close combat than other MEQ units (which, with Feel No Pain and Furious Charge, and potentially Fearless, you objectively are), it's that after a close combat against units roughly similar in strength even if you have an edge (Marine EQuivalent), your unit is battered?

 

I agree with the WS5. Against MEQ we hit on 3s and get hit on 5s. I would like to be able to field a full assault squad at the same price I field a tact squad now. Maybe cheaper.

 

You'd still get hit on 4s. To-Hit chart is wooly. Which I think sucks. You need a truly obscene Weapon Skill for it to do you much better.

 

[ElectricPaladin]

Maybe have Sanguinary Novitiates as an upgrade for any given squad member or as a joining character, Sanguinary Priests as up to 3 or 5 to an Elite Slot with two Wounds who have some further bonus, and Sanguinary High Priests as an HQ who can take Artefacts and other hardcore wargear.

 

Cronhur's got it. Blood Angels assault marines should be able to take other MEQs in melee. That's the point. If they can't, then they aren't better at melee than other MEQs... and then what are they? As it stands now, I won't charge into melee with anything in power armor except Sisters of Battle because I can't be sure enough that I'll win - even with Feel No Pain and Strength 5 on the charge - and still have enough of a squad left over to achieve any other tactical goals.

 

So it's not that you aren't better in close combat than other MEQ units (which, with Feel No Pain and Furious Charge, and potentially Fearless, you objectively are), it's that after a close combat against units roughly similar in strength even if you have an edge (Marine EQuivalent), your unit is battered? 

 

That's not really what I meant. It's that if the unit is too battered, I can't use it for anything anymore. So I have to be willing to commit my squad to fight and probably be reduced to the point of nigh-ineffectiveness, even if they win. That severely limits the utility of close combat as a strategy for getting things done, which means that I can't rely on it on the tabletop, which means that when I play with the Blood Angels codex, I don't get to feel like I'm playing Blood Angels. I feel like I'm painting red marines who are slightly better at close combat.

 

Imagine how a Space Wolf player would feel if all the wolfiness in his army didn't work and he ended up feeling like he was playing grey marines who have slightly better devastator squads?

 

This is, in part, a problem with the essential nature of close combat, which is that killing the other guy with a gun can often mean that he never gets a crack at you, while you've got to be very fast to pull that off in a knife-fight - hence the suggestion of Initiative 5, at least on the charge.

[knife&fork]

You can give assault squads a ton of buffs and they will still have a hard time even making it into close combat. The main issue right now for me is the one of mobility. a 12" move isn't good enough to catch things anymore and the rules for vehicles makes it very difficult to touch a mounted unit. Unless you get an 'exploded' result there's generally no way a combat will happen without you getting shot at least twice and maybe counter charged as well. 

 

Bikes and horses are superior in almost every way to a guy with a jetpack in a sci fi game.... it feels so wrong but that's how it's going to stay until the next edition. 

 

EDIT: In fact, it's the same problem you see a lot with 40k rules today. Their effort to keep the basic thing very simple, like not having things like hit modifiers or a movement stat, forces them to patch things up with often conflicting USRs to give the game variety, but there's only so much you can do without touching the basic unit types and rules. 

[Durundal]

If GW was Planning to release a new unit, What do you think it might be?

 

I feel like a new Elite or HQ is coming

[ElectricPaladin]

If GW was Planning to release a new unit, What do you think it might be?

 

I feel like a new Elite or HQ is coming

 

I think we're going to get a new flyer, so I'm betting Fast Attack or Heavy Support.

[Bartali]

You can give assault squads a ton of buffs and they will still have a hard time even making it into close combat. The main issue right now for me is the one of mobility. a 12" move isn't good enough to catch things anymore and the rules for vehicles makes it very difficult to touch a mounted unit. Unless you get an 'exploded' result there's generally no way a combat will happen without you getting shot at least twice and maybe counter charged as well. 

 

Bikes and horses are superior in almost every way to a guy with a jetpack in a sci fi game.... it feels so wrong but that's how it's going to stay until the next edition. 

 

EDIT: In fact, it's the same problem you see a lot with 40k rules today. Their effort to keep the basic thing very simple, like not having things like hit modifiers or a movement stat, forces them to patch things up with often conflicting USRs to give the game variety, but there's only so much you can do without touching the basic unit types and rules. 

 

knife&fork has it right in his posts in this thread. Jump packs aren't very good in comparison to bikes, and judging by the DA and SM codexes, they're not changing them this edition.

 

Giving Assault Marines S5 & I5 isn't at all game breaking, and even with this jump ASM will still struggle versus other MEQs as the game is so skewed towards shooting at the moment. Space Wolves will shoot you on the way over, counter attack and pop wolf standard when you get there. GK Strikes will shoot you on the way over, then hit you with force weapons. White Scars tacticals will shoot you, hit & run out, then shoot you again.

 

I keep saying it, but I don't want a 6th BA codex. I want one at the begining of 7th with hopefully improved jump pack, assault and transport/mech rules.

I find it hard to see what they could do with Assault Marines this edition, aside from giving them Bolters and Relentless and turn them into another shooting unit.

[henryc]

Is it total heresy to say remove Tycho and have his replacement as a captain instead...he is dead after all. With the dead man's hand passed down to his protege, who is perhaps driven by finding a cure for the black rage and the red thirst. To represent this there would be a positive and a negative factor involved like his company marines have particular bonuses but he doesn't field DC because of the lack of marines falling to the rage in his company? (Just an out there idea of course, a supplement maybe)