thebymster Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 So; like Dante turns S Guard into troops, L Grimnar does the same to wolf guard, Ghazgul- nobs, etc etc; a high priest HQ could change all priests in some similar way?! Sounds good to me- for troop based armies, but what about mech, av13 builds? I spoze u cud stick HQ hi priest with tac squad, like I do corbulo now, to hold objective and still send 3 fragiosos off to the front (which we can't do now!) Yeah I'm liking it!! but I'm not a very fluffy player! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepowerofwar Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 I would like to see units moving to the fast attack slot. It only has one unit I would us but I rarely do atm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 FA slot is full of good units in need of a price adjustment. Scout bikers for example is one of the overlooked units here, extremely viable at C:SM points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 FA slot is full of good units in need of a price adjustment. Scout bikers for example is one of the overlooked units here, extremely viable at C:SM points. Why get scout bikers when you can get Regular scoring bikers with grav weapons? as a FA slot, they aren't useful at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Because we are not going to get scoring bikers plus they fulfill a very different role for far less points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebymster Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 K&F, d'you mean the booby trap thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Those are kinda situational as codex marines pay twice as much as BA for them, we'll probably get that increase as well. Just 69 pts buys you 3 scout bikers with 2 astartes launchers and a melta bomb. A very nice deal if you want to mess with your opponent in the deployment phase as infiltrating bikers can be very annoying and the small foot print makes them surprisingly easy to place in an overlooked spot. They aren't a power house, but can wreak havoc if left unchecked and will soak up a lot disproportionate amount of force considering their cost. Also denial units, scoring in some missions and count for line breaker. Can give up first blood easily but that usually means less enemy attention on something expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Pretty sure Attack bikes are a better deal utility wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durundal Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 High priest grants rampage. Because he has battle drugs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebymster Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 BATTLE DRUGS?!?!? Blood chalice, probably! I never read Rampage before, that's quite cool. Who currently has that? Sounds like a khorn thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebymster Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Those are kinda situational as codex marines pay twice as much as BA for them, we'll probably get that increase as well. Just 69 pts buys you 3 scout bikers with 2 astartes launchers and a melta bomb. A very nice deal if you want to mess with your opponent in the deployment phase as infiltrating bikers can be very annoying and the small foot print makes them surprisingly easy to place in an overlooked spot. They aren't a power house, but can wreak havoc if left unchecked and will soak up a lot disproportionate amount of force considering their cost. Also denial units, scoring in some missions and count for line breaker. Can give up first blood easily but that usually means less enemy attention on something expensive. And they can carry locator beacon for deep striking!or will they be dead by time reserves start hitting the board?!? If they outflank on as first unit out of reserves can they use the locator beacon for the next unit arriving from reserve, even if it's that same turn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I don't think scout bikers are durable enough to gear up like that. Just give them enough kit to actually be a threat and keep them cheap. They are not dedicated anti tank like MM attack bikes, good scoring like normal bike squads or a replacement for sniper scouts. Scout bikers are an inexpensive wrench to toss in your opponents machinery. (Locator beacons and teleport homers need to be present on the table at the start of the turn, otherwise they cannot be used.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArboristCook Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 ... Red Thirst I think needs slightly tweaked, but I'm not sure how best to do it. Things need re-costed to reflect FNP/FC changes. Here's one to toss out for discussion - "Units with the Descent of Angels special rule do not count towards the number of units which may be kept in reserve when deploying your army". Any thoughts? I agree whole heartedly agree! Seems like good way to achieve what I was advocating earlier.... I wouldn't mind if they even nerffed the shooting capabilities when coming out of reserve just to gain the edge in striking quick and getting stuck in! My lists all seem to be a compromise of cheap units to start on the board so I can get strong units descending effectively. For Chapter Tactics I was thinking something like: Units arriving via Deep Strike with the Decent of Angels rule have a 3+ cover save on the turn they do so, due to the high speed meteor like impact laced with smoke. Units with Decent of Angels rule can have a single randomly chosen unit arrive turn one, on turn two can arrive with a 3+ roll as usual, but arrive automatically turn 3. And am I the only one that thinks it would be nice to see Dante T5, I don't mind being killed in a single hit if it's from some crazy weapon wielded by an HQ, but a lowly meltagun or power fist? I know Eternal Warrior would also solve that problem, but I don't feel it's appropriate for him. I agree with an earlier comment about him getting instead It Will Not Die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorre Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 3+ cover save on the turn jump packers deep strike sounds great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I don't see the narrative sense. Our specialty with Descent of Angels is accuracy, which is pretty good as it is. I don't see how we could fall "faster" than any other chapter, certainly not to the point of getting a cover save equal to power armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 agreed, whats more, they need to take the focus on assault squads off of the army wide special rule. We need something that makes us unique, whilst maintaining a codex adherent playstyle. we should basically be a codex marines chapter, with the addition of priests, death company and sanguinary guard. Priests could easily be made like in 3rd where you can take one as a HQ choice, although I still like the idea of them working like in the heresy rules. Sanguinary Guard... I'd honestly have them be our equivalent to Codex Marines Honour Guard, perhaps have Dante allow them as troops still to keep those that have multiple units from going insane. Death Company are really our only truly unique unit these days... even the baal can be found as a marine option via IA:V2 admittedly minus the fast rule. To best Represent us, I think we need a version of Red Thirst that is 'always on' but isn't too powerful, but with a chance to fail it under certain circumstances that would give a bigger benefit but also some kind of negative (something like the maddening rage rule that CS have as a warlord trait) so probably Furious Charge as 'always on' and if the unit is within x inches of an enemy they have to make a leadership test (perhaps with modifiers) failing would mean they have to attempt a charge, and gain the Rage USR. Descent of Angels is fine as is, it means our jump infantry are a little more accurate, but is anything but a game breaker. Tactical Squads need the same option the Charcaradons have - swap Bolters for Chainswords or Gain a Chainsword in addition for 1 point, basically allows our tacticals to be a bit more tactical if we want them to be, and fits nicely with our chapters tendency to get up close and personal, it's also a nod to the despoiler squads that I think BAs would use a lot of during the heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebymster Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 we should basically be a codex marines chapter, with the addition of priests, death company and sanguinary guard. Soz, but I could not agree LESS! Each of the primarchs have given a bit of themselves to their chapters. How different were each of them!?! BA have seen the evil within. They are SO different to smurfs, following orders cos it's what they do! Like S Wolves, BA have to be fundamentally different in the way they fight- from the ground up/ from the top down! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Admetus Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Red Thirst and Descent of Angels suit just fine as far as our equivalent of 'chapter tactics' are concerned. Perhaps as the Red Thirst rule - "if a unit with this rule is found to be within 12" of an enemy unit at the end of the movement phase, it must take a leadership check. If passed, the unit acts as normal. If the test is failed, the unit may not fire rapid-fire or heavy weapons this turn, and must attempt an assault. A unit which falls victim to the Red Thirst rule gains Furious Charge until the end of the turn." This represents the Flaw nicely, and ensures you only get the charge bonus if your marine go into 'raving lunatic' mode rather than 'tactically considered assault' mode. We know that players like to have some measure of control over forces, so there should be a way to mitigate the effects; so I would combine this with a special rule for Sanguinary Priests and Chaplains - "Guardians of the Rage - a unit containing models with this special rule//a unit within 6" of a model with this special rule [not sure which is the fairer option] may choose to pass or fail any leadership test it is required to make as a result of the Red Thirst rule". This represents the roles that Sanguinary Priests and Chaplains have in acting as guides to the Blood Angels in controlling the Red Thirst, and that they can either aid their battle brothers in restraining it, or help them to unleash it. I'd also return Lucifer Pattern engines to an optional upgrade, rather than just a flat tax we have to pay for all of our vehicles. Possibly have different points costs, as a fast predator is much more dangerous than a fast rhino (case in point - the Feel no Pain support system for Tau costs more for a riptide than it does for a standard battlesuit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 thebymster: whether you agree or not is irrelevant tbh... that has always been the BAs fluff, they are a codex adherent chapter that have some quirks because of their gene seed, they are not a chapter of assault marines. We always had veteran assault marines before others did because more of our chapter were predisposed to flight, thus when becoming veterans they once again donned their jump packs. but companies 2-6 are standard codex battle companies, 6 tactical squads, 2 assault squads and 2 devastator squads. Chaplain, you really feel that Furious Charge should be the 'benefit' of red thirst? by granting that but disallowing shooting, we'd be even worse than we are already, it really needs to grant a bigger bonus to go with the negative, or just be an always on effect. I do like the idea of priests and chaplains mitigating the effects one way or another though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 thebymster: whether you agree or not is irrelevant tbh... that has always been the BAs fluff, We didn't always have death company, we didn't always have sanguinary priests, we didn't always have baal predators or storm ravens or sanguinary guard or.... want me to go on? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pandion40 Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 thebymster: whether you agree or not is irrelevant tbh... that has always been the BAs fluff, they are a codex adherent chapter that have some quirks because of their gene seed,But this statement is way to broad to be used as a stick to beat on people who want us to be less codex compliant. Like it or not the pattern for our codex seems to be to increase our variation from codex marines with each edition. We gained a separate codex because we are one of the most popular chapters, but it's natural for GW to want all it's armies to play differently. So I believe we will continue to slowly become less codex compliant. In my opinion we could become significantly less codex compliant without the statement "we are a codex chapter with minor variations" becoming untrue. I would like to see assault squads stay troops but for them to say explicitly in the codex that our tacticals are trained assault marines and are commonly equipped as such when needed. In my opinion this would still make us a codex chapter with minor variations. If you disagree that's fine this is a wish thread after all. I would also like to see every troop choice given access to jump packs, I love the idea raised earlier of devastaters eqiped with jump packs and special weapons. I also want all our special characters to come with the option of taking or removing a jump pack, so that you can fit any character into your list no mater if you prefer jump infantry or mech infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Fair point pandion40. Knifeandfork... blood angela have had death company since they had their first codex. Baal predators since their second, priests since their first (admittedly just corbulo back then). I dont disagree on guard or storm ravens, although the latter is no longer a good example as everyone has it. Theyre a tough army to characterise as theyve changed more than almost any other in how theyre depicted. Either way, they need to have a rule that affects more than just jump infantry, descent of angels is a good one for those, something like the raven guards rule would arguably be better but is unlikely. Red thirst needs a total rewrite and needs to have some effect on everything in the army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolchiate Remembrancer Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I agree with Blindhamster. Troop selection is not what makes a Blood Angel Army, specialty units help but more often then not they are not competitive. But the Red Thirst is a part of every marine that shares lineage with the IX Legion Astartes. But that doesn't translate to the field of battle at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebymster Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Well, that's me told! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebymster Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I think the biggest issue you've all just highlighted in last few posts esp is that it's been a constantly evolving dex / chapter. So wether you look at it from a fluff or gaming point of view There will be more change to come! This brill thread has evoked many responses, but none of us will have any influence! It's very interesting to see the different ideas from fluffers or gamers ( I know we all Play the game - I just mean less fluff aware peeps like me!) and this raises another question to me: who creates the fluff? Some of it has been inherited, some of it is being written by creative peeps, but who is steering it and how and why? I'd love to know just what influence the GW board room ( no pun intended) have on the final drafts of all the novels and creativity that ultimately makes up The Fluff!? Obvs that should be another thread though, soz. Late night verbal dihorrea, I'll stop now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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