[HH1.0] Sons of Horus Tactica

[Hesh Kadesh]

Putjump packs on them and watch what happens when you outnumber.

 

Not sure exactly why Mal is not considered resilient. He is leading terminators into battle and gives them Fearless. Primus Medicae as well at higher points. No one takes a Praetor for resilience, they take a Praevian.

 

And if you are playing Beatstick... eh, I'd rather put those 200pts into a better unit. A pair of Castellax for example. Or a Vindicaotr/plasma derdeo/typhon.

 

As for mals benefits, reavers are ace, otherwise requiring black reaving (it kinda sucks) with a 3 troop minimum selection for not much benefits, and taking a master of Signal which defeats the point of your leegion rules, while fleet is naff unless you can assault from reserve and/or run and assault.

 

Pride of the legion sucks. 'Free KP's here'. Nah.

 

To make justaerin worth it, houseru that the minimum unit size is 5 for nopoints change.

 

For black reaving, bring some small jetbike squads with some drop pod assault troops. Use jetbikes to hold enemies in place, then assault for rage and merciless fighters; reavers get a naughty 6 attacks plus Hammer of Wrath with Black Reaving.

[Failbaddon]

A 20 man tactical squad is really only something that I would consider viable if they're in a transport like a storm eagle. With extra CCWs, they'll be getting 60 attacks on the charge & +20 for merciless fighters if they outnumber the enemy. So, that's a lot of attacks. These guys can also grab apothecaries, unlike jump pack Reavers. Unless you're willing to invest multiple JP Primus Medicaes, this is a clear advantage. Anyhow, put these guys in a storm eagle w/MM & LC, bust open some vehicles, disembark and use fury of the legion, then assault next turn.

 

As for the Reavers, they have more attacks, which is good. If you have a 15 man Reaver squad, give them jump packs. It will give them increased mobility/ Hammer of Wrath & Fleet and it will make them bulky, which is excellent for the purpose of merciless fighters. Getting packs will make you bulky meaning that you're 15 man Reaver squad now counts 30 models for the purpose of merciless fighters, meaning number most enemies an assault. As for wargear, I'd stay away from Banestrike. It is very lethal but it means they can't assault after firing. Give them volkite charges instead. However, like most Sons Of Horus stuff you want to maximise how many bodies you have in the squad before you start considering special weapons. On the subject of dedicated transports, I would rather put them in a Dreadclaw than in a Rhino. It gives more protection, it can heat blast stuff and it's an assault vehicle. When you combine this with drop pod assault, you can reliably assault by turn 2. Don't forget that they get 4 attacks when they charge (5 on the chieftain), so they're getting 1 more attack than a tactical squad.

 

Thhat all being said, I think Reavers are the better choice. They can get into an assault quicker and can put out more attacks. Plus, if you give a 15 man squad jump packs, they are actually MORE likely to outnumber the enemy than a tactical squad. Mix and arch between smaller units for holding objectives and larger units for cutting down the enemy.

[1ncarnadine]

Not sure exactly why Mal is not considered resilient. He is leading terminators into battle and gives them Fearless. Primus Medicae as well at higher points. No one takes a Praetor for resilience, they take a Praevian.

 

I feel kind of dumb for never realizing Mal would go great with Cataphractii, but that makes a lot of sense. 

 

I'm thinking of building a little SoH Mal/Reaver force but I'm stumbling when it comes to equipping the Reavers, as they have so many options. I'm leaning towards 2 squads of 15 each with jump packs, PFist on the chieftains, x4 power weapons (swords in one, axes in the other?), chain axes for the rest. Do you have any "go-to" load outs when you're kitting out your Reavers?

 

Another question, what units have you guys found synergize best with an assault-oriented list built around Reaver troops? Right now Seekers+Anvillus Pod, Legion Jetbikes and Damocles Rhinos all look like tempting choices, maybe backed up by Sicarans (both flavors) and/or Deredeos? I've also been looking at x8 Seekers in a Proteus with an Augury Web (instead of the Anvillus Pod) just for more reserve roll shenanigans, but that might be overkill?

 

To make justaerin worth it, houseru that the minimum unit size is 5 for nopoints change.

 

It'd be awesome to see your house rules some time :D Maybe a "level 1" version with common sense changes like fixing rules loop-holes, Justaerin, power scythes w/rampage etc vs a "level 2" with deeper game changes?

[Marshal Loss]

Our legion rules.. well.. getting reserves in is nice when fielding horus and playing an outflanking army where the elite drops in dreadclaws.. but otherwise.. it enables you to reliably get a flyer in. No big gamechanger, but a Lightning with 4 krak missiles, ground tracking and servitor will kill anything with an armour value. Propably even s spartan. Good answer to deathstar players.. beside this, you don't have to fesr putting sonething into reserce when going second.. for example sicarans which can still shoot to full effect or knight lancers..

 

The merciless fighters.. are hardly ever worth it to build a list around it.. i mean.. a hand full of attacks, propably hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s and beeing saved on 3+.. well even if you take a 20men blob thats average 1-2 dead bodies on top, otherwise its just 1 extra wound (unless you spend a dozen of points to buy PWs..).. something you should consider a free upgrade, but don't tailor your list around it

 

 

If you aren't taking our rules into account when making a list, you are getting literally nothing out of the Sons of Horus rules. Take a Damocles or a Proteus and suddenly you have a significant bonus in reserves. Take large squads or jump packs or some bulky/very bulky units to swing combats or make an effort to take initiative power weapons and suddenly you're getting a lot more out of your units in close combat.

 

 

 

I'm thinking of building a little SoH Mal/Reaver force but I'm stumbling when it comes to equipping the Reavers, as they have so many options. I'm leaning towards 2 squads of 15 each with jump packs, PFist on the chieftains, x4 power weapons (swords in one, axes in the other?), chain axes for the rest. Do you have any "go-to" load outs when you're kitting out your Reavers?

 

Another question, what units have you guys found synergize best with an assault-oriented list built around Reaver troops? Right now Seekers+Anvillus Pod, Legion Jetbikes and Damocles Rhinos all look like tempting choices, maybe backed up by Sicarans (both flavors) and/or Deredeos? I've also been looking at x8 Seekers in a Proteus with an Augury Web (instead of the Anvillus Pod) just for more reserve roll shenanigans, but that might be overkill?

 

A 'little' force? How small is little?

 

The best way to equip Reavers really depends on the size of the game you're playing, who you're playing against & what else you're using with them. Jump Packs are the obvious choice for a dedicated assault squad and mean you'll rarely not be outnumbering your opponent, but if your meta involves a lot of pie plates/a Typhon user you'll need to either plan your list around dealing with it or accept the fact that one or more of your blobs will be evaporating before reaching your opponent every game.

 

In larger games, I really favour Reavers equipped as barebone Despoilers - no guns or jump packs, a handful of power swords & a fist or two. Cheap, pumps out a ton of attacks and can be put in a Spartan/Dreadclaw/Storm Eagle as the situation requires. Use a tough anvil unit like the Jetbikes Hesh suggested to hold in place while your super maneuverable transports take your Reavers into the fray. The upside of this is that opponents are more likely to have anti-infantry than they are to have anti-flyer, but it's not everybody's cup of tea.

 

Storm Eagles synergise really well with Reavers - a flyer with decent anti-vehicle weaponry - but cost a fair few ponts. I like using Javelins (outflanking missile spam with 2x HK missiles & a multi-melta) and Jetbikes (thanks to Hesh), as well as Reavers equipped in a variety of way. Sicarans & Venators are obvious choices due to the fact that they're fast, and that kind of high-tech equipment fits the Sons of Horus theme of being the best equipped Legion of the Warmaster himself.

[Sanct]

I understand what Maloghurst does.. but PotL makes no real difference beside reavers and we get a more resilent beatstick hq on top.. PotL drawbacks are minimal.. and reavers as troops.. what for when you have veterans??

 

I think you misunderstand.  It's that he does it without using a rite and you don't have the somewhat painful limits of black reaving or the kp's of pride.  Now you can take a different rite for different bonus's (all the others can combo in interesting ways from drop podding sniper vets to deltaforcing-out-of-a-flyer reavers)

[WolfOfHorus]

He gives a unit Objective Secured and Fearless, allows you essentially mix PotL and other Rites of War (Angels Wrath anyone?) and is better than a similarly upgraded Delegatus aside from the no running/sweeping. Whats not to like?

[norngahl]

 

I understand what Maloghurst does.. but PotL makes no real difference beside reavers and we get a more resilent beatstick hq on top.. PotL drawbacks are minimal.. and reavers as troops.. what for when you have veterans??

 

I think you misunderstand.  It's that he does it without using a rite and you don't have the somewhat painful limits of black reaving or the kp's of pride.  Now you can take a different rite for different bonus's (all the others can combo in interesting ways from drop podding sniper vets to deltaforcing-out-of-a-flyer reavers)

 

 

I see the possibilitys of variation and mixing he offers.. But.. for me, there is no interesting rite of war beside PotL, mainly due to the armylist choices drawbacks.. yes, pods are fluffy.. but not a single tank on the field, that's just not me ;)

 

Reavers.. Even in their cheapest -useful- version they are around 250 points and have nothing but 3 attacks, outflank and a rhino.. where Veterans can swap to sniper, which is a nice offensive boost.. So, when you tool reavers up, they are about 400 points (10 in dreadclaw with some gear or 15 with jumppacks and some stuff).. golly gee?! 15 3+ bodies!!

 

For 400 points in allies you get:

 

1 Force Commander with 4++ and tainted weapon

1 Rough Psyker with tainted weapon and Lvl 2 for Daemon summoning

2x50 Levys with zealot, each 3 rending CC attacks on assault and feel no pain

 

You get FEARLESS hordes a regular armylist can hardly deal with and 150 rending attacks on the charge per unit.. so 300 rending attacks with reroll to hit. You have enourmous CC damage output due to rerolling rending attacks and you can just nope an area through sheer area denial with bodys..

 

Troops on marines are tax, whatever can be fitted into the troop section. I'd take veterans over tacticals any day.. 50 points difference at NAKED 10 bodies, but free CCW (worth alone 20 points when you look at tacticals), another attack AND sniper or outflank.. for 3 points per model.. now that's a nice and point saving deal for vastly improved damage output in CC and shooting plus still beeing able to hide in a rhino (something 20 men blobs can't do, beeing slower and less resilent to small weapons)..

 

 

So IMHO, you want veterans over regular marines. You can get them with malo or a praetor. As I get nothing out of Malo beside the no VP drawback for PotL.. but the Praetor offers more cc bang. I can handle the drawback, I have to pay HQ tax anyway.. so I rather choose the beatstick to earn some of the tax points back.

 

But do I want Reavers over Veterans? Hell no. Not going to pump this much points into tax units. Heck 400 points.. thats worth 10 terminators.. and you got to have 2 troops.. 800 points on troops.. just my 2 cents - no way. 470 for 2x 10 veterans in rhinos is bad enough, but better than 370 in 2x10 tacticals in rhino.. as you got a chance to get the points back when you invest 100 points for upgrading them to veterans.. but another 330 points in taxes for 1 wound 3+ models?! Reavers are a total hella expensive glasscannon.. Might fit someones playstyle, but not mine.

 

I`d rather invest points into something the Legions suffer from.. lacking expendable bodies, lacking point effective bodies.. legions armoury is ace in cost efficiency.. the infantry simply isn't. Maybe when you face 40k lists they get better in relation, but 30k vs 30k.. is rather expensive unit vs expensive anti unit .. and if you don't bring the anti units you are screwed.. the cultists offer a nice way to break this circle.

 

Let the :cusswar begin :D Nice to see this threat revived.

[Slips]

While your Levy squad is a good example and one that is very valid, you can pretty much NOPE all 100 Levies with a single shot from the 40pt Nanyte Blaster.

 

Or obliterate 1 squad a turn in a single turn with 10 Heavy Support Culverins.

 

Sure, thats essentially wasted Firepower due to the nature of the Levies, but, that means your CC units wont get overwhelmed/Tarpitted by them and clears up a LOT of space on the Board.

 

It also feels damn good to remove that many models in a single turn of shooting

Edited July 26, 2015 by Slipstreams

[norngahl]

Hmm we got the nanythe blaster banned due to beeing heavily undercosted for what it can do.. it's one of the most questionable items FW has ever created.

 

Still, there are ways to counter it. You mainly got just a single round of shootibg with it due to it's range. You know, only characters can get it. And it only triggers when the first model gets killed (!) and even then only on 4+.

 

Shove a character model (rogue psyker after transformation, force commander or whatever with 2 LP) in front of the levy squad, tank or take the hit, assault.

 

10 culverins.. haha.. nobody takes them, just have a look on the armylist section.. because the heavy slots are full of better units. Support squads with volkite chargers, yes, they are taken quite often, and they will cut a nice piece out of your levy squads (propaply half them to 25 in a round of shooting) but hey.. they killed.. 50 points of distraction ;)

 

There is always a counter to any unit.. 400 points of reavers can be eaten by nanythe, scorpius whirlwind or plasma dupport squads easilx alike.. thats 30k, anything got a specific counter.

 

But as long as they are killing 2 point levis, my main force gained some important time and suffered less. ;)

 

For Fluff reasons, SoH used chaos kultists quite heavily, the longer the war lastet..

 

And you MIGHT get something out of merciless fighter or the reaving as well, when the enemy is bound in CC..

[Slips]

Saying that Nobody Takes 10 Man Culverin Squads because of the Lists present in that Sub Forum is kinda Hogwash. Not everyone posts theirs there and while HS does have better options, not everyone is building Power Lists Either. The vast majority of 30k Players will play to a fluff theme they have in mind. I mean, I for one have a few ideas here and there that actually make use of them (since they gain Tank Hunters, so they're a bit better) Mainly because I have 1 HS Slot free the vast majority of the time. But thats neither here nor there.

 

The main beauty of 30k is just that: There are counters to everything. Not contesting that.

 

And if you really wanted to make use of the Nanyte Blaster, you'd give the equipped character the Phase Walker as well to just jump across the board and shoot the back of the unit you're targeting so you dont have to deal with tanking characters.

 

I'll agree that killing Levies is a literal waste of firepower - that is their purpose after all: Cannon Fodder but, that doesnt mean that you should be glad to see them obliterated by a single 10 man squad shooting them since, at that point, you could have used those 50+ points a bit better.

 

As it stands, SoH can gain a lot by allying in Militia forces with Levies to do just that: Bind something up in CC and be damn sure you'll be outnumbering them for your bonuses. It also helps that, with the way CC rules are, the unit in combat with Levies + Reavers might be forced to attack levies instead due to how B2B contact works and all that.

[Marshal Loss]

You have to outnumber them with Sons of Horus infantry units in combat, not militia, so although warp cults/militia do make fantastic allies given the SoH playstyle they aren't counted for the purposes of Merciless Fighters.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Terrain hopping power weapon precision strikers with 5 attacks on the charge plus hammer of wrath? So what if they are 800pts of troops, they are 800pts of avoiding direct LoS weapons.

 

As for the Scorpius, eh. if people take it, fair one. Personally I don't have all that much use for MEQ killers in my heavies. Rather take Deredeos, Vindi TDs, or Plasma Preds as they do something the rest of the list struggles with.

[norngahl]

Terrain hopping power weapon precision strikers with 5 attacks on the charge plus hammer of wrath? So what if they are 800pts of troops, they are 800pts of avoiding direct LoS weapons.

 

As for the Scorpius, eh. if people take it, fair one. Personally I don't have all that much use for MEQ killers in my heavies. Rather take Deredeos, Vindi TDs, or Plasma Preds as they do something the rest of the list struggles with.

 

Jup precision strikes is a nice bonus, but rather to kill characters or for 40k where only a few models have special weapons..

 

I don't say they have no awesome damage output (of course they have), but they are a total glass cannon. And a very expensive one on top. A single Scorpius usually kills 9 out of 15 MEQ models per round, as they only have a 3+ save. And it's not that hard to wipe 6 reavers off the board..

 

I think reavers are best at killing guard equivalents.. with the possibility to take cheap chainaxes they simply slice through I3 AS 4+ or less units better than anything else..

 

I wouldn't specifically gear up marines to kill marines in CC. With Ini 4 you are striking at the same time, so if the enemy has some power weapons as well, you loose 5 and he loses 8. For example. It's like in real life, fights on the streets are never fair and if they are, the costs of winning are to high.

 

 

I don't understand why one would ever take a plasma deredeo. I mean a support squad with plasmaguns does more damage for the same amount of points and doesn't block a heavy slot. The Whirlwind is nice against MEQ and hordes alike. If you are desperate he can kill transports as well. And he is damn cheap. Show me something else at 115 points that can fill out these tasks equally well.

 

I can see the use of Lascannon Vindis.. 3 Shots S9 AP2 Ordnance are quite nice.. but on the other hand, you can get 8 shots S8 with Sunder (practically the same as Ordnance) for the same amount of points when you take the quad mortars.. so you shove another HS free for other stuff. Plus, the quad mortars get you 8 blasts with S5, as an alternative.. I'd choose them due to raw damageoutput any day over a vindi..

 

I mainly play 1750 point games. So I'm always looking at cost efficiency. Of course, around 3k other unit and armylist builds might work better than on this small point level. Maybe something we should consider when we talk about units. A 1750, 800 points for 2 troops are way too heavy.. an HQ for say 110-170 points, and you are left with 800 points for ALL other stuff.. When you play 3k and above, I can understand to pay 400 points for a single unit, as you have more units on the board to distract enemy fire.. and when all important slots are filled, you make the best out of what you have plenty of - troop slots.

[Sanct]

A lot of the numbers behind your points are flawed but the direction your thinking on reavers is in tune with my own.  Reavers cannot take punches for their points.

They are there to hit and you should build lists towards that, which is why I like using maloghurst with orbital assault or angel's wrath.  If you personally don't like using those styles then reavers are probably never going to be for you and any conversation towards that is meaningless.

 

A better talk would be which reaver builds work.

[norngahl]

So, enlight a humble man with wisdom and correct his mistakes please.

[SMcaptainAurelius]

Think Hesh has already told us a smaller unit with chainaxes works in his opinion. Which has been mentioned earlier in the thread; the despoiler build.

 

Enjoying this debate though. Would be interested to expand on the idea of points efficient units to take in the 1750-2000 range.

 

Also bit off piste this but could someone humour me on how the merciless strike rule works? As in does it work with power fists and axes or just power swords and ccw?

 

Cheers

[Slips]

If you're going for points efficient units at 2k and Below, you'll quickly find that +/- the same units pop up all the time and that lists get VERY samey at that point.

 

You're better off building to a theme and having fun with it rather than 100% pure efficiency.

[Charlo]

 

Also bit off piste this but could someone humour me on how the merciless strike rule works? As in does it work with power fists and axes or just power swords and ccw?

 

Cheers

 

I think the wording is if they have already attacked, they can benefit. So models who normally strike at I1 (Unwieldy) do not get extra!

[Failbaddon]

I figured I start this thread since no one else has, granted these are mostly my observations since my 30k experience is limited. So please, if you have suggestions post it. I'm still fully building my SOH army is I am by no means the authority on SOH Tactics.

First Discussion: Troops Choice Reavers vs Tactical Marines

It seems better to take Maloghurst than ROW Black Reaving to have Reavers as troops but are Reavers as Troops better than the 20 man blob of Tacticals with apothecary ?

20 tactical marines w. Vox and sergeant w. PW (maximize merciless fighter) and artificer armor for 280

The best tactical load out can be discussed in length but I am just looking for a baseline to compare Reavers

Vs

15 Reavers w Banestrike Bolters Cheiften w. PW and artificer armor runs 380

So for 100 more points you get five less marines, lose the ability to re-roll failed morale but gain outflank and AP 3 Bolters with precision shot.

It seems as if instead of replacing Tacticals for Reavers as the troops backbone they do a better job complementing each other on the battlefield. As the Tacticals slogg upfield towards an objective the Reavers come in on what seems to be Turn 2 with the ability to re roll 1 on reserves, to claim a midfield or backfield obj and support your army by getting in their shorter range ap 3 precision shots.

What do you guys think? Have you ran purely footslogging Reavers or have you paired Tacticals and Reavers or do you find it better to give them rhinos or assault packs?

(This post is in pieces because my iPad likes to time out before I post)

I wouldn't give Reavers Banestrike Bolters, because you want these guys in an assault, which won't be happening with rapid-fire weapons. If you must, take Volkite charges. As of late, I have decided that jump packs are not the best way to kit out Reavers, as it leaves them way too vulnerable to enemy fire. Rhinos are decent for Outflanking, but I wouldn't recommend it. Although the Black Reaving RoW gives you Fleet for the turn if you enter from a board edge, it's not really that useful. You can't assault from reserves, so at best, you'll get to re-roll your run distance for a turn. You also can't assault from a Rhino. I think the best way to field Reavers is in 10 man squads inside Dreadclaws. You can come in turn 1, heat blast, move flat out and then have an AV12 flying armoured shell to protect you. Then, you can exit turn 2 and trap some important enemy units in an assault. Then, you can bring in your tactical blob in a Storm Eagle, charge the unit in combat with the Reavers (gaining Rage from the RoW) and put out 80 attacks on the charge (+31 from the Reavers).

[Charlo]

I think SoH can be very strong, but I imagine you need to pair up your units. You need averagely strong and resilient Anvil units paired with large hammer units.

 

Every SoH legionnaire has the potential for four attacks each in perfect conditions (rage and merciless), so I suppose you need to try and achieve this.

 

Jet bikes work as 3 bodies each for merciless and are fast, resilient (T5 2+) and don't deal waves of damage on the charge so these are you're anvils. They charge enemy units (even disordered!) to lock them up, hopefully on the enemy turn too.

 

On your next turn, that's when you charge your reavers / tactical 20ccw blob on for them to get Rage, and merciless.

 

Basic, sure, but when you factor in the access outflank and you start charging units and bringing on the hammer on a nearby board edge, safe from retaliation, that's where the plan comes together.

 

I also think distractions are perfect here too, land raider Proteus' scouting full speed will put some fear into the enemy and hopefully leave you're anvils to do thier job.

 

 

Very basic overview but just some shower thoughts!

[norngahl]

I think jetbikes are too expensive just to claim extra S4 attacks.. plus you have to play our rather underwhelming rite of war as well (extra troop, one heavy less, forced to buy FA choices to get heavies PLUS extra master of signal..).. but a contemptor in dreadnought drop pod can tarpit a unit as well and it shuts down fire against your hammer units like reavers..

 

What do you think of a geared up praetor with phase walker, starting the game out of a gearless levy squad? He has look out sir in the levy squad, can phase walk over the whole board into cover out of line of sight in the near of bukered units (for example into a building but a level above or below where he can't be seen), moves in turn 2 into line of sight and charges into the enemy unit by turn 2? Can blow up tabks in cover with melta bombs or slowly chop through camping backfield units..

[WolfOfHorus]

I think jetbikes are too expensive just to claim extra S4 attacks.. plus you have to play our rather underwhelming rite of war as well (extra troop, one heavy less, forced to buy FA choices to get heavies PLUS extra master of signal..).. but a contemptor in dreadnought drop pod can tarpit a unit as well and it shuts down fire against your hammer units like reavers..

 

What do you think of a geared up praetor with phase walker, starting the game out of a gearless levy squad? He has look out sir in the levy squad, can phase walk over the whole board into cover out of line of sight in the near of bukered units (for example into a building but a level above or below where he can't be seen), moves in turn 2 into line of sight and charges into the enemy unit by turn 2? Can blow up tabks in cover with melta bombs or slowly chop through camping backfield units..

Nice unit, completely unrelated to SoH.

[sedobren]

Since these are the models i have I've only played so far Jump reavers (with primus medicus) and a huge 20 man tactical unit inside a spartan, joined by an apothecary, a praetor and maloghurst. i can say that 20 marines with feel no pain are quite resilient, even against 40k grav weapons (i won against a marines-bike list!), while the 500+ points reavers unit always struggled to gain its points back (but it is quite good in close quarters!). Another set up for the reavers could be 5 bare reavers with 5 combi weapons, either with jump packs or inside a rhino (but i prefer seeker squads like that!), for a unit that costs around 200 points but could potentially kill a character (also, wipe out its unit) with combi plasma, or take out a vehicle before dying with combi melta (i know it sound crazy, and maybe it is!).

 

I've been thinking about using huge hordes of fearless cultists since book 5 came out, i think too that whatever the enemy uses to kill the it will be wasted points for him, while you pose a medium threat and you do not give him the kill point for wiping them out!. Anyway the cheapest counter could be just refusing to play against an opponent that will have to move 100 minis (plus the rest of the army!) each turn.

[Hesh Kadesh]

To win a game against you, an opponent needs to kill your 30 odd MEQ's who are specialised at ranged, hold one objective deny the other. Makes it easy asf to play against and neuter you like a randy cat, because this is a) 40k where 3+ saves are one of the most common, and b) especially 40k.

 

The cardinal rule of playing competitive 40k is dont give away free KP's. Armies like Alpha Legion or Maru Slara are just that powerful that you can afford to risk it (6 outflanking legion dreads and Breachers are hilarious).

 

PotL's only benefit is saving you 100pts (after you've taken the vets) of objective holders. It is there to allow people the thematic All Terms list, and to play legally with what models they have as a 40k marine force somewhat easier.

 

Terminators are naff. This is a year deep in 7th; 40k has ap2 running around everywhere, and Terminators ceased to be 'good' part way through 5th, and these don't even have Storm Shields (with exceptions; Fire Drakes and IF have 2W and t5 to make up for it, and Siege/Fulmentarus have ridiculous damage output). If you aren't playing a Competitive meta and arent inundated with meltapreds, plasma deredeos or typhons, then its not a competitive meta.

 

Fearless Catas are pretty hard to shift for their points however, and Score, and they lose nothing by having mal join.

 

Nobody is saying build a list around it. But 5 free extra ap3 attacks each turn add up. Plus, the quad mortar does nothing when it is in combat anywy. Why do you think that melee in 30k v 30k is so strong? Because if it was just a shooting game, it would be Iron Hands who win everytime.

[depthcharge12]

With the SoH, I feel that it is more necessary to take more AP2 shooting than other legions. The case being that you lose 99% of your other ccw attacks that have AP2 with merciless fighters. I feel it's better to take more swords, maces, and claws since you get literally nothing better than vanilla terminators with fists or axes.

 

It might even be better to use large tactical blobs to weigh down terminator saves with a bunch of cc attacks at initiative. Take 20 tacticals with ccws and an AA sgt gunslinging a bolt pistol and plasma pistol and tack on an apothecary too.

 

They should be able to churn through a terminator squad with weight of attacks, and if you add Mal in with the fearless banner, you should be golden as a tarpit.