[HH1.0] Iron Warriors Tactics

[Hesh Kadesh]

At least it's Perturabo. He is one of the few Primarch's who can successfully board a Caestus. Horus, and I think Fulgrim are the others. None of the others have Artificer, Terminator, or Power Armour.

Edited December 24, 2015 by Hesh Kadesh

[Charlo]

They're very cool, I just hope the models end up so!

 

Perturabo is incredible as are the legion Heads but... The bodies are just weird.

 

Our contemptor too... Ouch. That thing is god awful.

 

I got a DG one, that 14 is going to become a 4 and those rings aren't going to be around the skulls for long let me tell you.

[Raktra]

I am the only one who loves that damn Contemptor..

[Caustic63]

 

Blind tests come after the hit roll, so you'd be regular I.

 

Edit: And Lorgar still has 3/4 powers, with a -ton of re-rolls, so he's still an arse for any non-Horus to handle.

 

 

Yea, but it would happen on the 2nd round of combat.

 

I.e. Turn 1 Primarch X attacks

Then Peruty, reducing Primarch X to I1.

 

Turn 2 Both Primarch attack at the same time.

But Perty would hit, causing the opponent to be blinded.

 

Turn 3, Primarch X is blinded and concussed.

 

Turn 4+ Primarch X is always blinded and concussed.

 

 

I'm going to have to say that Perturabo with Forgebreaker is very expensive, and his main weakness is lack of attacks. Since he only has the same number of attacks as a Praetor, like Vulkan he relies on a few powerful hits so there's a good chance he won't score any wounds at all against another Primarch (not to mention he is Unwieldy where most other Primarchs are not). Combine this with limited means of dealing with large squad tarpitting (Horus gets bonus attacks, Mortarion gets bonus attacks, Vulkan has a template, etc) and he has his weaknesses.

 

Fulgrim with the Child of Terra trait and Fireblade (MC Paragon Blade) could really give Perturabo a run for his money, and costs more then a 100 points less.

 

Iron Warriors are a legion defined by their unique units. Their rules are merely okay by legion standards and their characters run from okay to good depending on what type of list you build around them. The chief role of Golg would be to use his Terminators as Troops benefit in combination with another Rite of War provided Perturabo is not in the list. For example, a Hammer of Olympia list with all Terminators as troops, Tyrants, Havocs and a bunch of Tanks could work pretty good. Kyr Vhalen works best as the anchor in a gunline, where his Stubborn and warlord trait works well with a unit of Tyrants or Iron Havocs.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

20 frag missile shots from a tyrant unit will certainly help thin the horde.

 

Plus the other problems you noted other legions suffer as well

 

yea, but a unit of 50 is 100 points...so you can have an absolutely insane number of dudes plus all their support; 300 fearless, hatred rending 2 cc weapon guys for 600 points. Which is pretty much the same cost as 10 Tyrants 

 

Arguments like this are kind of meaningless. Obtaining, assembling and painting 10 Tyrands is infinitely easier than doing the same for 300 grunts for a niche list. Given the effort and cost required to actually build an army like that, then transport it, then actually deploy and play with it, and do so without taking 5 hours, I feel pretty confident that your odds of running into something like that outside of an Apocalypse format with multiple players is close to zilch.

 

 

The part that directly compares points and effectiveness of given units? No one in my meta owns 10 Tyrants, does that make them meaningless because I won't have to play them? 

 

Honestly you just need ragtag looking human dudes to make them and dark vengeance cultists are pretty cheap on ebay. Painting is pretty easy as you just prime white and use washes; brown for clothes, flesh for flesh, black for hair and weapons, camoshade everything and done. I painted and based 50 cultists this way in 2 days, so 12 days of painting? Not too bad for one of the hardest lists to beat in 30k.

[Terminus]

 

 

 

20 frag missile shots from a tyrant unit will certainly help thin the horde.

 

Plus the other problems you noted other legions suffer as well

 

yea, but a unit of 50 is 100 points...so you can have an absolutely insane number of dudes plus all their support; 300 fearless, hatred rending 2 cc weapon guys for 600 points. Which is pretty much the same cost as 10 Tyrants 

 

Arguments like this are kind of meaningless. Obtaining, assembling and painting 10 Tyrands is infinitely easier than doing the same for 300 grunts for a niche list. Given the effort and cost required to actually build an army like that, then transport it, then actually deploy and play with it, and do so without taking 5 hours, I feel pretty confident that your odds of running into something like that outside of an Apocalypse format with multiple players is close to zilch.

 

 

The part that directly compares points and effectiveness of given units? No one in my meta owns 10 Tyrants, does that make them meaningless because I won't have to play them? 

 

Honestly you just need ragtag looking human dudes to make them and dark vengeance cultists are pretty cheap on ebay. Painting is pretty easy as you just prime white and use washes; brown for clothes, flesh for flesh, black for hair and weapons, camoshade everything and done. I painted and based 50 cultists this way in 2 days, so 12 days of painting? Not too bad for one of the hardest lists to beat in 30k.

 

First of all, yes, if no one in your meta runs Tyrants, they are meaningless to you. It also doesn't change the point that someone is far more likely to acquire 10 Terminators, rather than 300 ragtag humans (about $300 in ebay cultist prices).

 

Okay, you can speed-paint 300 models in 12 days, how are you actually going to transport them, considering those 300 models are only a fraction of your full list? Just toss them in shopping bags and touch up the paint when you have to?

Edited December 24, 2015 by Terminus

[SkimaskMohawk]

Just pack them carefully in a large case? there's more than enough room in the new ones/

 

I'm not sure what your argument is. Do you go into Legion Tactica threads when they post theory lists and tell them they don't own the models so they should never consider it? Or that they might have to transport their army differently?

[Memento Of Prospero]

Just pack them carefully in a large case? there's more than enough room in the new ones/

 

I'm not sure what your argument is. Do you go into Legion Tactica threads when they post theory lists and tell them they don't own the models so they should never consider it? Or that they might have to transport their army differently?

You are missing the point of relative utility. It's not because something cam happen or is true that it is useful to you.

 

Likelyness is extremely useful. Sure you can make a 300 dude horde, but you have to build lists with likely events in mind. You are significantly more likely to play against a spartan than a horde of culists in any given 30k. So you know which one to prepare against.

 

Otherwise, there is no strategy and only random events.

[DuskRaider]

Why not just have both? I have more stuff than I can transport to a game, but I don't give a damn because I like variety, I like building the models, and I'll carry them in a marsupial's pouch if I want because they're my models.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Just pack them carefully in a large case? there's more than enough room in the new ones/

 

I'm not sure what your argument is. Do you go into Legion Tactica threads when they post theory lists and tell them they don't own the models so they should never consider it? Or that they might have to transport their army differently?

You are missing the point of relative utility. It's not because something cam happen or is true that it is useful to you.

 

Likelyness is extremely useful. Sure you can make a 300 dude horde, but you have to build lists with likely events in mind. You are significantly more likely to play against a spartan than a horde of culists in any given 30k. So you know which one to prepare against.

 

Otherwise, there is no strategy and only random events.

 

 

I mean, before BaC those 10 tyrants cost more than 200$ CAD to make, so you'd be more likely to see that spartan than 10 of them.

 

The whole point of relative utility is that it is relative indeed. If you sign up for a 30k tournament and you see no Iron Warriors then you're not going to plan for those 10 Tyrants much like you wouldn't expect to see the 300 dude list if there was no Militia. However, if you saw either of those armies on the site or whatever you can think that they may be bringing the best stuff to a tournament. The best stuff for militia being, of course 300 dudes.

 

Regardless, no one is actually going to get surprised by someone they play locally busting out a full rocket vomit list or the dudes; you generally know what your friends own or have in their collection. The entire thread is theory on the what is the "best" by asking the internet, not a context driven environment or meta

[DuskRaider]

The fact that terms like "best" and "meta" are being thrown around in relation to 30K makes my blood boil.

[d@n]

Skimaskmohawk. I have not read the rules for cultist. But unless there fearless IW shouldn't have a problem pinning them with all there heavy bolters

[Raktra]

They can be. Zealot upgrade.

[d@n]

Then there's always graviton cannons. Trying to move horde units back into coherence or/and around the template could render them useless or dreadlock them etc etc

[Slips]

Merged Topic with the Tactica thread since this is essentially what it's become.

[Hesh Kadesh]

The fact that terms like "best" and "meta" are being thrown around in relation to 30K makes my blood boil.

Do you play 1200 pts of recon marines? Welcome back to the meta.

[DuskRaider]

Blargh!

[Fangbanger]

 

 

20 frag missile shots from a tyrant unit will certainly help thin the horde.

Plus the other problems you noted other legions suffer as well

 

 

yea, but a unit of 50 is 100 points...so you can have an absolutely insane number of dudes plus all their support; 300 fearless, hatred rending 2 cc weapon guys for 600 points. Which is pretty much the same cost as 10 Tyrants :o

Arguments like this are kind of meaningless. Obtaining, assembling and painting 10 Tyrands is infinitely easier than doing the same for 300 grunts for a niche list. Given the effort and cost required to actually build an army like that, then transport it, then actually deploy and play with it, and do so without taking 5 hours, I feel pretty confident that your odds of running into something like that outside of an Apocalypse format with multiple players is close to zilch.

I have actually come across 2 lists with this at one event....just sayin

[Caillum]

Just a few of my thoughts on the benefits of "Hammer of Olympia":

- Firstly, "Hail of Fire" is a lot more subtle in its strength than it would appear. The ability to Rapid Fire then Assault looks like an offensive ability, but it works best as a counter-offensive. Move your Tacticals into cover, where you can shoot the opposition as they approach. Once they are within charge range, use "Hail of Fire" as a counter-attack. It's one of the only times taking additional combat blades is worth it on a 10-man squad (as it helps mitigate the disordered charge).

- "Sheathed in Steel" is fairly uninteresting. Free Extra Armour on Tanks and Walkers is nice, but it is found on a lot of 30k Tanks already. Still, it's good for Rhinos & Land Raiders to keep their mobility when you cop a Crew Stunned.

- Finally, "Siege Engineers" is the ability to take 4 Heavy Support choices. This is something you should definitely take advantage of, as it is a unique bonus. If you add in an Allied Detachment of Imperial Army or Mechanicum you'll have 5 slots! Though many lists don't need this bonus (or have limited Heavy Support), it does work nicely if you pick the right units, i.e.: single models that are good value, like Vindicators, Sicarans, Whirlwind Scorpii, etc.

 

The limitations are, in my opinion, in-line with the benefits:

- Firstly, needing a Warsmith or Siege Breaker is not hard to do. If you're taking Perturabo, then a Siege Breaker makes a decent compulsory HQ. If not, you also need a Praetor for Master of the Legion, or must swap the Siege Breaker for a Warsmith. They have pros and cons, like free Stubborn and giving up an extra VP when dying. Limits your HQ options, but doable.

- You need to take more Heavy Support choices than Fast Attack. Big deal. If you're taking the RoW, then you should be maxing out your Heavy Support!

- You need to take an extra Troops choice. In small games it's a big limitation, but in 2500+ it's not a problem, as you probably want the extra scoring unit anyway. Suits the Iron Warriors from a theme standpoint too.

- Finally, you can't take Legion Astartes allies. Most Rites have this limitation, so it stacks up well. With their excellent relationship with Mechanicum, they make perfect allies anyway. They can also take Imperial Army with no disadvantages.

 

All in all, it's not a bad Rite of War. I wouldn't consider it a no-brainer to run like some are, but it can work fine. Here's a list I made that tries to encompass all the benefits of it:

 

HQ

Kyr Vhalen: The Hammer of Olympia

 

TROOPS

9 Tactical Space Marines: chainswords; nuncio-vox; + 1 Tactical Sergeant (artificer armour; power weapon; melta bombs) 205

• Rhino

9 Tactical Space Marines: chainswords; nuncio-vox; + 1 Tactical Sergeant (artificer armour; power weapon; melta bombs) 205

• Rhino

9 Tactical Space Marines: chainswords; nuncio-vox; + 1 Tactical Sergeant (artificer armour; power weapon; melta bombs) 205

• Rhino

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

Artillery Tank Squadron

• 3 Medusae

Vindicator: laser destroyer array 130

Whirlwind Scorpius

7 Iron Havocs: lascannons; + 1 Iron Havoc Sergeant 380

 

LORDS OF WAR

War Machine Detachment

• Typhon Heavy Siege Tank: heavy bolter sponsons (shrapnel bolts); armoured ceramite; heavy bolter (shrapnel bolts) 405

 

FORTIFICATIONS

Wall of Martyrs Imperial Bunker: Gun Emplacement with Icarus Lascannon 90

 

2,500 points

 

Havocs go in the Bunker with Kyr Vhalen. They get his re-roll, Bunker gets AV15, and he mans the Icarus lascannon. Tacticals spot for the artillery and take objectives. Everything else does what Iron Warriors do best - use overwhelming firepower!

Edited January 5, 2016 by Caillum

[Fangbanger]

I think the list looks good. Nice all rounder Edited January 3, 2016 by Fangbanger

[Hesh Kadesh]

I know the purpose of this list wasn't to really be about power, but there's a lot of wasteful points in the list. While the 9 Pinning Shots seems awesome, you're paying 45pts to have a chance to cause a Ld test that some legions ignore, and even the most basic of legion units has a Ld9 test that may or may not have a reroll. They can't even strip a Void Shield Harness, so if I was to take sponsons, it would be Lascannons, but I wouldn't do that.

 

You have lots of artillery, but at 2500pts, between the 3 Medusa, Scorpius and a Typhon, I can't help but feel that it's going too much in one way. You could really tighten up the list too - taking away the Vindicator TD, Bunker and the Scorpius (500pts), you can get get 6x Graviton Cannons, who can do the same job but better and more effectively. You have 50pts remaining - and taking away a single Medusa and some upgrades to the Tacticals, you've got the ability to take a Deredeo for aircover. 

 

That said, you're only using 3 Heavy Support slots there, and you've "spent" a Rite of War to gain free Extra Armour (yay?) and the ability to disordered charge assault after Rapid Fire, at the additional expense of an extra troops choice and a Praetor. 

[Fangbanger]

I think gravs are banded around as the answer to a lot of high av issues however the range of them can really hamper you on several deployment maps and your terrain options to deploy them in can be limited too

[Charlo]

I think gravs are banded around as the answer to a lot of high av issues however the range of them can really hamper you on several deployment maps and your terrain options to deploy them in can be limited too

I agree with this, Gravs are no doubt powerful and a heavy answer to a lot of stuff but they seem to be the be all and end all on the forums.

 

I like the list as is, personally I'd be a lot more psychologically impacted by the four heavy support slots being used and all those templates.

 

I have to agree with Hesh on the Havocs though. It could be meta dependant, but they seem a little eh. It's a tough decision - against other Legions shrapnel are "better" but the chances of that pin are very low. Whereas against other 30k factions you're in a grey area where you either keep the ap4 and kill the enemy/ force cover saves or let them have a 4+ all the same. Auto cannons or missile launchers are generally better for Havocs imo, especially missiles as they get flakk for cheap that forces a 5+ jink. Powerful.

 

Also of note - Leadbelcher spray is back. And there was much rejoicing.

[Caillum]

@Hesh, you've missed the point a bit - the list was to showcase the Rite of War. I considered graviton cannon Rapiers when writing the list, but as Fangbanger said (and I believe you've said before) - they are only good if you have clear firing lines. With a table full of terrain (which you also advocate), Iron Warriors don't have easy ways to create that advantage like RG or AL. But you're on point about the shrapnel bolts - they were a fluff addition and AP4 is better against Mechanicum and Imperial Army.

 

@Charlo & Fangbanger, thanks! Interestingly, compared to Heavy Support Squads, Havocs with missile launchers aren't any cheaper, as the unit cost is higher. They are exactly the same cost as HSS's with the same gear, but they have Tank Hunters and Deadly Aim. Worth it if you can keep them safe (see below).

 

Kyr Vhalen is INCREDIBLE value (you can't make a Praetor with all his gear for that price, plus he has additional benefits). He makes a building very hard to destroy, especially when he's inside repairing it. Couple that with his re-roll 1's ability, and a Bunker full of Havocs made sense. Missile launchers were contemplated and discarded, as I figured Siege Tyrants do them better, so Tank Hunting lascannons with -1 to cover saves were the go. KV has BS5, so why not add the Bunker weapon for a bit of anti-air (as there's no more flakk missiles) and make sure he doesn't sit there all game only repairing?

 

As it turns out, I never added the Siege Tyrants. The list was only an example though - there's more than one way to skin a cat. And it was too easy to see this happening:

- take a Deredeo, Siege Tyrants, meltaPreds & graviton cannon Rapiers

- drop the Medusae, Scorpius & Vindicator to save points.

- I now have less than 4 Heavy Support choices, making the Rite of War pointless, so I drop the extra gear on the Tacticals (and 1 squad completely), swap KV for a Siege Breaker & I may as well lose the Bunker and the Havocs.

- now I can take more Siege Tyrants (and maybe Perturabo) and have a generic Rocket Vomit list.

 

Yawn.

[Charlo]

Ooooh do you have 7 lascannons in the havocs? I thought it was one on the sarge using split fire or something!

 

Toally agree on Kyr. If I decide on IW any list I use will have him if I don't use Pert most likely. He's a beast, and his art is amazing.