[HH1.0] Iron Warriors Tactics

[Brofist]

Havocs are confirmed BS5. As for Vindicators with the new ROW- remember that its only for barrage weapons. Vindicators only have ordinance Your options are: Artillery, Thudd Guns, and Whirlwinds from your primary or allied detachment.

 

e: Slipstreams I know you like the Iron Circle dudes, but it'll be hard to convince us its worth fielding them outside of the rule of cool (I think they are awesome myself). A squad of 3 costs more points than big P's Tormentor. Which has void shields and is also a transport.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Bulbafist

[Terminus]

If they cost as much as the base Dumbitar, they'd be okay. A 200+ point melee model that moves 6"? Maybe for defensive and/or narrative battles.

[Slips]

Havocs are confirmed BS5. As for Vindicators with the new ROW- remember that its only for barrage weapons. Vindicators only have ordinance Your options are: Artillery, Thudd Guns, and Whirlwinds from your primary or allied detachment.

 

e: Slipstreams I know you like the Iron Circle dudes, but it'll be hard to convince us its worth fielding them outside of the rule of cool (I think they are awesome myself). A squad of 3 costs more points than big P's Tormentor. Which has void shields and is also a transport.

Oh, thats fine, I mean 200 points is 200 points and its hard to swallow even for me. But saying theyre garbage is a stretch.

 

They're an Apoc-Game unit.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Slipstreams

[Gorgoff]

 

I never used Havocs, Thudd Guns or more then one unit of 5 Tyrants in any 2000 points game and still crushed my opponents armies. Just because some IW players can't play without a really braindead army does not mean, that IW such now.

Spoiled kids lost their toys and now need to learn how to play. ;)

 

wow could you possibly be more condescending?

 

I play Iron Warriors because I want to play Iron warriors. Without our special units we lose a lot of what makes our legion unique. Our legion rules are already thread bare, our legion wargear is practically none existent. our rites of war are both focused on the idea of overwhelming fire power.

 

Our first rite of war gives us the ability to fire rapid fire weapons then charge which applies to exactly five units veterans, tactical squads, tactical supports (plasma guns), breachers, and seekers. realistically only two of these are every going see play in an iron warriors list. It also gives us extra armor on anything that can take it which is nice but nothing special and an extra heavy support slot which is now lost to our second heavy support unique unit.

 

Our second right focus excessively on barrage weapons, which in a legion list means Artillery Support Squads (which you can only take one), Whirlwind Scorpius, Masters of the Signals, and Rapiers. If you take an Artillery Support Squad you are left with exactly two heavy support choices which is barely enough to get both of our legion units. You can forget having anything else after that, no Spartans, land raiders of any kind, Siege or Deredeo, battle-automata, Sicarans, or predators among other things. And the idea that you would want to play an artillery rite of war without one of our two forms of artillery is just incomprehensible.

 

Even Then half of our legion is practically unplayable, Perturabo is 495 points himself and wants to be surrounded by terminators to get the most out of his rules 325 per ten man squad bare. 495 is alot in any normal sized game of two to three thousand points. You can forget running the tormentor at 500 points or his ridiculously over-priced body guard at 205 points a piece or 1230 for all six.

 

So you will have to forgive me if i feel like its getting to a point where I'm not see much of the Iron Warriors in my Iron Warriors lists. Hopefully forge world will move Iron havocs into the Elite sections as some sort of compensation to our legion.

Yes, of course I could, but I didn't want to offend anyone. I just wanted to stop the cry train before it even could get momentum. ;)

Apparentely you didn't know that Havocs got buffed. I wasn't aware of that and I should have pointed some pros and cons out in a more neutral way, but being a douchbag and calling some random dudes little criebabies is way more fun.

I apologize for that.

May I explain in couple of more words why I was such a dick? Hopefully that'll bring you some nice ideas for your armies.

Ok, the rocket vomit list was one of the cheesiest and at the same time easiest to handle list in the whole HH. Hands up who didn't know that. And it was NOT a list that fit in the background of that legion. I Never real of an IW army made of 70 dudes which contained 30 Tyrants, ten Havocs and twenty normal guys.

So I never played that way. And, of course, I like my opponents and want to keep on playing against them. ;) It just had to be nerfed by FW. And after the Moritat with duel Plasma Pistols got nerfed everyone knew that FW does that. We where warned that it will happen.

That said I have to admit that I hat to swallow the anger after reading it for the first time. But only for a couple of minutes. Like I said we all knew that that nerf will come.

Besides Havocs have now BS five which is huge.

Ok, in my case the joy was even bigger because I never played Havocs. But you awesome guys like The Lord of Iron got in my head somehow and I build a squad of them last week. I never wanted to because of their low BS but I did it anyway because you guys made me do it. :) Three days later the get BS five!

Wohoow.

And besides of that our RoW Hammer of Olympia became really got or at leasty a necessity in lots of army concepts. Lucky fool I am I build for fun a squad of ten dudes with Bolters and a Siege Breaker as well. To put the cherry on the icing on the cake I always lamented the fact that I cannot play Vindicators in units... So yeah, thank you FW, I feel the love you gave exclusively to me apparentely. :D

 

I love the Iron Circle miniatures but I think as well that it's hard to include them. Maybe for my Praetor from time to time.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Gorgoff

[Hesh Kadesh]

Considering Iron Tyrant spam was the only unique way of running a competitive Iron Warriors army without resulting in a vague almost cookie cutter list of Grav Rapiers, Grav Podnaughts, Typhon and Medusa, you can see peoples annoyance.

 

That they are now Heavy Support is a major pain. If they had the ability to fire frag missiles as barrage, that would let them mesh with their Rite of War. In the past, I've said that Heavy Support isn't crowded, and especially for IW because they had Tyrants available as Elite/Troops. Now, they have 2 unique legion units sharing the same slot. Someone wants to run both, they have to choose. This is an Iron Warriors list, where the army with the biggest Siege Tactics now cannot field its legion uniques. Unless of course you run Hammer of Olympia. Which now penalizes you for running that tactic even more. Get more HS to use the units you were using anyway, but now you have to pay another 150+ pts to do so. Oh, and you can disordered charge after rapid firing into unit you'll be unlilely to reach. Unless it has changed. Gain an attack to lose an attack which can recieve a cover save/cost you another AP3 or better attack, and maybe lose the charge anyway? Real gold. Hammer of Olympia sucks even more now, Iron Warriors in general suck even more, amd it is only because of Golg, Artillery RoW and generic units everyone has access to that the Iron Warriors are anywhere near going to be c

 

What FW should have done is rather make the inclusion that a Pride of the Legion list cannot take Tyrant Terminators as troops, with Perturabo unlocking that option for Tyrants in a pride list. That is more balanced, increases build diversity rather than making a matter of a false choice between the different units.

 

If Iron Havocs were available as Fast Attack, in the same manner as Phalanx Warders, it wouldn't be so bad. Give them some neat transport options, like say a Dreadclaw and it is a unit which is something more than just 'super HSS'.

 

Perturabo should be running on his own out of a Dreadclaw like all Primarchs, allowing him to be on the field and providing his ability to get 1st turn reserves, and getting into assault turn 2 trusting to his 6 2+/3++ wounds. Forgebreaker IMHO is not a mecessary upgrade, so can save points there.

 

Terminators come in around him without the need for a Dreadclaw, making them instantly more points efficient than any other legion at it.

 

I'm not sure how a Rocket Vomit list is both cheesy and easy to handle. Perhaps you could explain what you mean. It was powerful, sure. A 1st turn arriving scoring Terminator squad with 10 Krak Missiles and 5-10 Bolter shots was rather powerful, especially against an army that relied on things like AV10-12. But that was either 395pts with a Dreadclaw, or needed a further 4 or so Terminator Squads in pods to justify taking Perturabo.

[Charlo]

Yeah, I'm of the opinion IW should just flat get an extra heavy support slot or something to accommodate now. At least morale isn't something of an issue to them.

 

Hammer of Olympia is so sporadic, there's no Synergy.

 

So Pert gives you furious charge in the enemy deployment zone? Well cool. You aren't using it because of disordered charge.

 

The math is there as to why it's okay for a counter charge but thats it. The extra troop tax is crappy too.

 

Nee Artillery RoW is nice but... You still only get one artillery squad plus rapiers. Cool. So one alpha strike onto your Medusa battery and your rite is now half useless. Dang son.

 

At least the Iron Circle are baller.

[BrotherGecko]

Fluff wise I'm not seeing much of an issue that you can't spam tyrants and havocs and artillery in the same list with bare minimum infantry. For some reason the mass attrition of siege/breaching warfare by the Corpse Grinders has been reinterpreted as a small elite force with maximal guns. IW is all about guns supporting mass infantry action.

 

The Hammer of Olympia enforces this theme by making you take extra troops to use it. Which is seen as an obstacle to terminator and artillery spam instead of enforced theme. The new RoW also once again enforces the same theme, mass infantry supported by guns.Its is a cool little RoW because not much is required and you don't have to min-max it to get good use out of it.

 

However, if when desiring to have a good chance of winning games, IW themes and RoWs are probably not your friend. Tyrants are not very unique or interesting or well themed to IW but they are good so people do want to have a force that is made up of a majority of them. Havocs are also not very unique or interesting but are also good so people will want to use them too.

 

FW has made it harder for people to max out on the IW "unique" units. Good for those that like to see IW look and play like IW but bad for people that either converted a bunch of those models (tyrants get expensive to make fast so I feel bad for those that made a ton of them), simply enjoyed playing them or want a higher win rate.

 

What you can't do anymore isn't much help to IW tactics and should probably be dropped in favor of what you can do.

 

 

Has anyone considered breachers + deredo with force field suport to meander upfield?

Edited February 9, 2016 by BrotherGecko

[Gorgoff]

Hmpf, I tried some list ideas and got to the point where I have to admit: You're right Tyrants in support makes sence but it sucks. Bad. Really bad. I mostly play games around 1500- 1850 points so Hammer of Olympia is not an option. So I need more Tyrants because some of my shooting power has to go. Have to adept to that.

 

Oh, Hesh I think rockit vomit was really easy to play. Stand and shoot. What was there to know?

 

Edit: Today I play Breachers with an attached Vigilator for flanking action on 1850. New rules mean new tactics. It isn't easy at the start, but it is possible. We are Iron, we will survive everything.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Gorgoff

[Hesh Kadesh]

And other armies are more difficult because you have to move too?

 

Do you feel that you're more superior because you made an army that moved? Or did you not know that Powerfist armed Relentless Terminators with Split fire can participate in all stages of play? Not excessively, true.

 

And you also need actual AT and Anti infantry/TEQ firepower as well.

 

I'm not sure that the nuances of a gunline army are your style, because you've got to nail a threat matrix abd allocate speedbumps as appropriate to stall or delay armies.

 

It can be boring to play, sure (and for myself, as a former Glade Rider spam player in oldhammer), but no less boring than a WE rolling 3 Spartans loaded with Chaplain led Zerkers. But that doesn't make it a 'scrubs' or 'easy mode', and cannot be described as cheap or cheesy, as they are neither are they cheap to make, and require a fair bit of thought into their use.

[BrotherGecko]

Still the reality is you can't use them like before. Maybe run a list with 2 squads and havocs and then take a ally of UltraIronMarines to get more Tyrants....because UM have them too basically. Or think up something that doesn't require tyrants as troops.

[Gorgoff]

In short:

Yes, it is very easy to play an army which only stand and shoot.

Depents on the terrain of course but if you don't have to move in order to be able to shoot at all then what are doing? Sitting, pointing and throwing dice is not complicated. It is, like you said , boring.

There are other boring armies, of course, but right now we talk about rockit vomiting.

And that's not a challenge. If it is for someone and he defends it as a very complicated challenge to play and thus making him a good player, well, then he deserves some pointing and laughing. ;)

Back in the 5th edition there where the GK list, which remind me a lot of that kind of IW lists. They weren't challenging to play either and user of that lists defended them as hard to play as well.

"Ohooohoooh, I have to decide which unit I shoot first and whith which gun. That's hard. Not everyone can do that."

Give me a break.

I don't understand you Hesh. Your postings are usually very clever and it seems that you know what you are doing. Why do you try to convince us that that kind of list is hard to play?

Edited February 9, 2016 by Gorgoff

[Terminus]

Rocket vomits are 5th edition Space Wolves lists, when they started with three units of missile launcher longfangs.

[Doctor Perils]

I agree holeheartedly with hesh about most of what he said. I'm not quite so sure about the rokkit vomit list being more complicated than people think, but as I don't play much I'm no reference on the tactics aspects...

 

The problem for me isn't how rokkit vomit has been disallowed: yes it could be abused easily, and too many multiples of a unit isn't extremely interesting. My biggest gripe is how it limits us from playing what we want, even if it isn't exactly the "theme" of the iron warriors.

 

If I remember correctly, the iron warriors are all about sieges. To me that means artillery to take down the walls, and shock troops to assault the breach. Our special units don't allow that any more. That's why I'm a bit miffed.

[Terminus]

Actually Brother Gecko is spot-on for the actual background for Iron Warriors and how they fight their battles. "I don't want to vomit rockets, I just want to play what I want.... which is to vomit rockets" is essentially what you are saying.

 

Let's put this another way, Tyrants are amazing and the new Delegatus/allied ROWs as well as Shattered Legions make them very attractive as allies or merged armies.  Do you really want the Iron Warriors to become the sluts of 30K like Fleshtearers are the used car salesmen of 40K?

[Doctor Perils]

"I don't want to vomit rockets, I just want to play what I want.... which is to vomit rockets" is essentially what you are saying.

 

No, I don't want to Vomit Rockets. I want to be allowed to have just one unit of Tyrants (as elites, fast attack or even HQ ?), plus Artillery, plus Culverins plus a nice tank with a big gun like a Sicaran or a Venator. Now that Tyrants are Heavy Support, I can't. Simple as that.

 

Is that too much to ask ?

 

 

EDIT : also, I find it interesting how people say in the "help me choose a legion" thread say that the Legions are so vast that all Legions can use any tactic they want, and so a player is free to play as he wants; yet in the thread for my own legion, people are saying that the way I want to play isn't the way of my legion...

Edited February 9, 2016 by Lord Thørn

[NonExistentOne]

Feel like FW is conflicted by how to portray the IVth as a legion that relied on sheer firepower and was just as relentless in melee combat. Like they were overly conscious and concerned about making the legion overpowered. I mean just take a look at our legion bonuses, which benefit a gunline army while the extras for the legion RoWs (And Pert's army buffs) want to be in the fray. What other legion has this problem of focus?

 

They could have easily added a rule under the Tyrant entry that prevented abuse. We saw them do it with S&P on Catapharactii.

[Terminus]

Heavy support is the most powerful non-LOW section in 30K. There have to be limits on it. Tyrants are essentially a heavy support unit, and their prevalence in the troops and elite slots complicated matters. This was a not too unexpected balancing measure.  The alternative would have been to make them cost as much as the Ultramarine terminators, i.e. too much to be usable at all except in 3000+ point games, or restrict them to one unit, which would screw over all the people that built 20 (because even munchkins don't deserve to have their modelling work discarded).

 

FW ignores many issues in the ruleset for years, yet they chose to intervene on this, so they clearly saw a serious problem.  It may not be intentional on your part, but in this case, "what I want to play" equals to "what stomps".  You still get two unique heavy support choices that are incredibly excellent, and will get unique super robots. You can still take an army with 4 heavy support slots and bring an allied detachment of Reductor or Auxilia or Militia for an additional artillery battery. What more do you want?

 

And at the end of the day, this discussion is kind of pointless on several levels.  First, the change has been made, and second, we do not yet know the full extent of the changes the Legions will see with the upcoming red book.

[BrotherGecko]

For the record artillery isn't for breaching, it is pretty bad at all aspects of breaching operations. Mostly what artillery is used for is keeping the enemies heads down and maybe in a pinch softening up a minefield or obstacles. I would know because I did military breaching lolz.

 

Breaching is blood and bodies pure and simple. Close range demolitions and then forcing yourself through the gap.

 

Tyrants are not much for siege or breaching. However,they represent a solid mobile fire support platform in situations where vehicles cannot be brought to bear.

 

Legion rules exemplify mass infantry with heavy gun support not really gun line at all. Gun line is a hang up of 40k game play rather than what IW would actually do in combat. Ignoring shooting morale, rerolling pinning and rapid fire assault shows FW does have a pretty good understanding of how IW should be fighting. Enemy fire can not or likely will not slow down your infantry as they cross the gap. Four heavies lets you bring the guns to support fire that movement.

 

If you actually want to run siege/breach IW your not going to be very competitive probably. You will look cool though lol.

[Brofist]

Yeah, I agree that it seems FW has no clear vision for our legion. I'm sticking to my Iron Hands rules probably for good now. They have been fun, flexible, and reliable since the 2nd book. IWs got love this time around, but its really been poorly implemented. I wish they tweaked our core rules, but nothing.

 

The saving grace of the new ROW is that allies are game for the benefits. You can bring some Admech or SA and lean on them for your artillery needs (they do it better anyway) while cramming in thudd guns into your elite slots.

 

I guess FW is really meta about making us hate ourselves

[1ncarnadine]

OK so I have a rules consultation question, looking at the Iron Circle and trying to fathom any good use for them. I doubt this works but let me give this a go:

 

They have the Moving Bulwark rule, which says they may be joined by a single Independent Character with LA(IW) contrary to the usual limitations of their type. They then confer their Moving Bulwark & battleshield rules & saves to that character. 

 

Could this character be a Praevian and his attendant Castellax/Vorax? My instincts lean towards no but it's a weird situation. I think it's the "joined by a single Independent Character" line that prevents it but I'm not sure when what joins what pre-game and in what order that might allow something like this.

[NonExistentOne]

 

Could this character be a Praevian and his attendant Castellax/Vorax? My instincts lean towards no but it's a weird situation. I think it's the "joined by a single Independent Character" line that prevents it but I'm not sure when what joins what pre-game and in what order that might allow something like this.

 

Probably not. The way the Master of Cybernetica rule is worded specifically refers to the Praevian and his automata as a unit, which he cannot voluntarily leave.

[Charlo]

No way he could join it.

 

Tgier use is to make Pert nigh invulnerable with rerolls to his 3++ against blasts as you March them up the field laying down the dakka until you charge something, and Lord help that unit.

[Gorgoff]

GODDAMMIT could we pleaaaaaase stop talking about these robots? I have to buy one if we don't. :D

[BrotherGecko]

I think I just may shoot for the robot RoW. Those Domitars with their sassy poses are going to be very very hard to pass up lol.

[Galron]

Meh I played the proper IW way with a single Squad of tyrants plodding up the center supported by two full tac squads and backup vet squads supported by every Heavy slot filled with various enjoyable shooty vehicles with a Deredeo on AA duty. It hurt on the occasion I subbed a tank out for Havoks and now I am screwed over even more by having Tyrants in the most congested slot.

 

Not whining, just stating a fact, they screwed over my perfectly fluffy army and now I cannot field the forces I enjoy fielding. I never gun-lined, I never spammed Tyrants and I rarely had much just sitting in my deployment zone. Now to play IW I have to use less cool stuff and more blah stuff.