[HH1.0] Tactica Chainaxe: World Eaters

[Fangbanger]

Yeah you can, surlak is not a consol so your good to go if want the delegatus

[Allart01]

Let's talk about  Surlak's price.

It's 110.

A Primus Medicae with  refractor field and power axe is 120 points (110 with the old book).

So Gahlan has better fnp, augmented inductii, master crafted on a weapon and permanent exhortation (not conditioned by the narrive setting) FOR FREE (actually, FOR TEN POINTS LESS!).

Sounds like bad balancing to me, the guy's literally a steal. 

I'm not sure that fielding him for such a price is actually fair.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Kharn the Bloody

[Terminus]

Yeah, when you're eating a mountain of S6 AP4 and S10 AP2 from a ~150 point unit, it feels pretty unfair. :P

[Charlo]

I guess it's sort of balanced out by still needing to actually get into combat and the vehicle for all that damage still being just MEQ.

 

Scary as all hell though... If I had a little less self control I would have caved and gone WE ages ago :P but I know they'll just feel like playing my Death Company heavy BA

[Guiltysparc]

To actually use inductii you need to spend FOC slots and a lot of points on assault vehicals.  When you look at it in that light they are not imbalanced at all.  A 10 man inductii unit costs 395pts with the required land raider.

[Charlo]

At that point just get a 20 man and put them in a spartan 

[Gorgoff]

The price (£) of a Spartan is a balancing factor of its own. ;)

[Flint13]

At that point just get a 20 man and put them in a spartan 

I'm still trying to find a good ratio between Spartans and Phobos, since there's a good 100pt difference between the standard equipment versions now.

 

I think Terminus made a good point a few posts back when you look at Inductii (which are cheap) and assault vehicles (which are expensive) they kinda balance each other out. 

 

 

 

Sounds like bad balancing to me, the guy's literally a steal. 

I'm not sure that fielding him for such a price is actually fair.

 

You're looking at the wrong balancing factors.

 

Mr. Bligh and company were balancing out all the snide loud bros on the internet complaining that the XIIth wasn't even the best melee legion. 

 

That math checks out. 

[Allart01]

I'm not talking about how strong inductii are; that may be fair.

So let's ignore Surlak's ability to make them available.

 

I'm talking about the fact that Gahlan costs ten points less than a Primus medicae with less equipment and less special rules.

That's not how special characters are priced: they usually pay for their better stats and rules, they don't get a discount

I don't see any similar case in other HH special characters.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Kharn the Bloody

[Gorgoff]

I'm not talking about how strong inductii are; that may be fair.

So let's ignore Surlak's ability to make them available.

 

I'm talking about the fact that Gahlan costs ten points less than a Primus medicae with less equipment and less special rules.

That's not how special characters are priced: they usually pay for their better stats and rules, they don't get a discount :P

I don't see any similar case in other HH special characters.

Kyr Vhalen.

Glad to help. ;)

[Guiltysparc]

Keep in mind that unlike a medicae primus, surlak can't take a jump pack, bike, or jet bike, so he is far more limited on who he can go with.

[Allart01]

 

I'm not talking about how strong inductii are; that may be fair.

So let's ignore Surlak's ability to make them available.

 

I'm talking about the fact that Gahlan costs ten points less than a Primus medicae with less equipment and less special rules.

That's not how special characters are priced: they usually pay for their better stats and rules, they don't get a discount

I don't see any similar case in other HH special characters.

Kyr Vhalen.

Glad to help.

 

 

Got it

Still not sure he's a friendly/fair character to field.

 

Keep in mind that unlike a medicae primus, surlak can't take a jump pack, bike, or jet bike, so he is far more limited on who he can go with.

 

Yep, but if you take those options, you pay for them. 

It wouldn't make sense if my Medicae costed 10 points more than Gahlan because he *could* have stuff he doesn't have, would it?

 

The guy's objectively underpriced.

He costs less than his gear would - and we're not even talking about rules such as 4+ fnp!

Edited August 15, 2016 by Kharn the Bloody

[Terminus]

Actually, Surlak is not that unfair on his own. Guys like Skorr or the Raven Guard guy are probably also too cheap for what they do.  Yes, Inductii have almost no drawbacks (even the no scoring is cancelled out by not giving up VPs), other than relying on transports (which applies to all non-jump pack troops, and people are frankly too fixated on land raiders to give Dreadclaws/Kharybdis a gander).

 

It's really the chainaxes that push them over the top. Not only do they get them for free, but they are the only ones with access to it other than Reavers and Blackshields. Even just assault marines are downright brutal with S5 AP4 swings.  Oof!

 

One or the other is okay, together it's like holy crap!  But this is still a shooting and scoring edition, something Berserker Assault lists tend to lack, and the necessity for multiple assault transports is not an insignificant harness.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Terminus

[Guiltysparc]

 

 

I'm not talking about how strong inductii are; that may be fair.

So let's ignore Surlak's ability to make them available.

 

I'm talking about the fact that Gahlan costs ten points less than a Primus medicae with less equipment and less special rules.

That's not how special characters are priced: they usually pay for their better stats and rules, they don't get a discount

I don't see any similar case in other HH special characters.

Kyr Vhalen.

Glad to help.

 

 

Got it

Still not sure he's a friendly/fair character to field.

 

Keep in mind that unlike a medicae primus, surlak can't take a jump pack, bike, or jet bike, so he is far more limited on who he can go with.

 

Yep, but if you take those options, you pay for them. 

It wouldn't make sense if my Medicae costed 10 points more than Gahlan because he *could* have stuff he doesn't have, would it?

 

The guy's objectively underpriced.

He costs less than his gear would - and we're not even talking about rules such as 4+ fnp!

 

 

He isn't "objectively underpriced".  Underpriced is a value judgement, he is lower priced than a primus, sure, but that doesn't mean he is over or under priced.  You can't look at a unit in a vacuum to determine if its pointed correctly.   Yes, you have to pay for the mobility options on a primus but if you taking a primus you are doing it for just that reason.  Similiarly, if you are taking Surlak, you are going to have to buy a transport for him, which is more expensive than any of the primus mobility options. 

[Allart01]

I'm not looking at him in a vacuum, I'm comparing him to his "base" unit version with the exact same transport issues.

 

The Primus doesn't come with a free bike/jump pack, he has to buy them. 

By your reasoning, you should have to increase the option's costs, not the footslogging model's.

"Possibility tax" makes no sense.

If you get a discount for fielding Surlak, you should get it for fielding a footslogging Primus Medicae.

And I repeat, we're not even talking about Gahlan's special rules!

Edited August 15, 2016 by Kharn the Bloody

[Guiltysparc]

You aren't picking up what i'm putting down, lol

[Allart01]

Sorry about that.

I tried rereading and I still disagree with your pov.

I still think he has more gear and rules than what he pays for, and than other characters with the same limits have for his points cost.

Praetor-based special characters often cost more than the base praetor with the same options, even if they lose the chance to get a Jetpack or bike... just look at Khârn. Sure, he has some cool aspecial rules, and that's why he costs more than a paragon blade, iron halo praetor. Even if the latter can have other transport options and Khârn can't.

 

Anyway, it is not so important.

It sure won't stop anybody from fielding Surlak (and I still want to try him, too).

I wouldn't be surprised to see his cost faqed in the future -and I wouldn't be surprised to see chainaxes going from free to 1/2 points, either.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Kharn the Bloody

[Flint13]

^Ah, I get what you're saying, he is pretty legit inexpensive for what he brings in.

 

Secondary question now that we're all in a chatty mood.

 

What do you think would be the best knights to ally in with my World Eaters? 

 

I've been playing around with dropping the Typhon, two leviathans and jetbikes from my Berzerker Assault list in order to bring in a trio of allied knights to see how they fair comparatively. I've got about 1300 pts open right now and my Knight collection consists of 1x Atropos, 2x Lancers, 1x Castigator, 4x Stumpy undetermined Questoris, 1x Acheron, 1xStyrix

 

For reference, the rest of my XIIth Legion BA list looks like:

 

Delegatus - Volkite Charger, Boarding shield, Artificer, Chainaxe, RoW-Berzerker Assault

Gahlan Surlak

 

10x Inductii - Chainaxes, Vexilla, Sgt w/Powerfist and artificer

10x Inductii - Chainaxes, Vexilla, Sgt w/Powerfist and artificer

15x Inductii - Chainaxes, Vexilla, Sgt w/Powerfist and artificer

9x Tactical Support squad - Volkite chargers, chainaxes, Sgt w/artificer, melta bombs, Rhino w/combi bolter

 

Land Raider Phobos - Armored Ceramite, Dozer blade

Land Raider Phobos - Armored Ceramite, Dozer blade

Spartan Assault Tank - Flare shield, armored ceramite, dozer blade

[Guiltysparc]

I was kicking around an Atropos and Categator in a 3k list that looked like this...

 

HQ

Surlak

Jump Pack Delagatus

 

Troop

2x 16 Assult Marines

1x 19 Inductii

 

Elite

2x Jump Apothecaries

 

Fast Attack

2x MM/CML/HK Javelins

 

Heavy Support

1x Spartan

1x Drop Pod Double Punchy Levi with Claw and Drill

 

Allied Detachment

HQ Atrapos 

Martial Castegator

Upon further reveiw that list is a lot different that yours, haha

[Flint13]

 

Upon further reveiw that list is a lot different that yours, haha

Very much a product of the dozen or so bros I typically play with getting really good at knocking out single spartans :lol:

 

I didn't even think of going with a single Levi and two knights!

 

That might actually be the best of both worlds. I could go Lancer, Atropos and drop pod muder-drill melta lance

[Guiltysparc]

That would be pretty excellent...i went with a two fisting Levi because of points and it seemed like a fun thing to do...5 attacks on the charge, get my choice of snipping or drilling, plus still has two melta guns and phosphex.

[Flint13]

To this day and a dozen games having used between 1-3 leviathans in each, I have not once remembered they have a meltagun regardless of melee weapon option :lol:

[Guiltysparc]

its the Iron Man guns!  lol

also, i posted my surlak model in my wip thread...i'm less than pleased with how it turned out but i think i can fix what i dont like (the apothecary jars).

[Terminus]

You have melee covered and it can always stomp in a pinch. You need guns. Go crusader for all the guns.

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

Has anyone tried fielding a Stormlord as an LoW? Seems like a pretty logical choice for us, 9 HP, 40 model assault vehicle. Price wise, twice the capacity of a spartan but far from twice the cost, gains superheavy at the cost of flare shields/armored ceramite and some AV on the sides and rear. Very tempted to roll this into a Mechanized BA list...