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[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

 

Lets see, Lord in termie armour and Seer's Bane, lvl 3 sorcerer in termie armour, familiar and Astral Grimoire. A squad of termies with assorted equipment to escort them and you have a nice little 2+/3++ blob that moves like jump infantry and absolutely annihilates anything it touches.

 

 

As another question, how would people roll for Ahriman nowadays? Fish in the Tzeentch-lake for the D-power and save one roll for the divination primaris? Maybe save another roll for scream?

 

I would suggest that you have a chainfist on one of your termie characters in case an Imperial Knight comes knocking and you don't have the right buff powers active to reliably crack Armor 13 with Force Staves and Power Swords. You may be moving at 12 in, but Knights can cut off the table surprisingly fast, and you can't always count on powers to take them out.

 

Also, there's no strength D power in the Tzeentch Discipline. That's in Change.

 

 

Well yeah, CFs are in the assorted equipment departement for the termies. Now that I think about it though, the sorcerer can just cast force for the unit to receive the +1 invul save (which would activate the lords force as well to instakill those MCs, haha).

 

Aww, I can't keep track of the new powers. So is there nothing fun in the new tzeentch powers then? Is it still a tax?

 

I really like that idea of a terminator unit, will have to give it a go.

 

As for the Tzeentch discipline, breath of chaos is still nice to have, baleful devolution is a S6 AP2 Assault D6 (which is nice), and there's always doombolt. The Treason of Tzeentch is interesting - take control of a unit and fire with its weapons. So in all, it's not a bad table to roll on but I reckon biomancy, divination, and telepathy are still better.

 

Don't forget that Baleful Devolution is a Focused Witchfire, so with the right rolls, you can completely strip an enemy unit of things like heavy weapons and hidden close combat weapons (none of which benefit from Look Out Sir), or you can put a few successive hits on something like a Commissar until they fail LOS, then smash the unit. Siphon Magic does wonders for Sorcerers who need to use those extra castings from Grand Coven.

 

At 1850, my personal termie deathstar squad is 10man Scarab Occult (2 Missiles, 2 Heavy Warpflamers), Ahriman, and then 2 Level 3 termie Sorcerers, one with Astral Grimoire, Force Stave, and Chainfist, and one with Seer's Bane and Chainfist. Ahriman and the first Sorcerer fulfill choices from the War Cabal. The other Sorcerer is from a Tzaangor Warherd

 

The fact that there's 13 people in the squad has absolutely nothing to do with old myths about witches' covens. Really. I swear.

 

The rest of the army is 1 10 man Rubric squad with bolters, Warpflame Pistol, and Soulreaper, the rest of the Warherd (3 x 10 Tzaangors, no upgrades), and a Daemons allied detachment with a Mastery 2 Herald and a unit of 13 Blue Horrors. Model count: 67, Warp Charge: 17 + the dice.

 

Bounce around with Grimoire and maybe Ectomancy and burn stuff or charge. Apply Warp Fate from Sinistrum for 2+/3++ rerollable. Invisibility if needed.

 

Rubrics take the middle and try to make themselves useful while the beasties grab objectives and the Daemons hold down the backfield and do some Summoning.

 

Power/Summoning mix is tailored to opposition. I can even pull out Heretech if needed....or Sanctic, since the two Sorcerers are from the CSM Codex and retain access to that power set.

[Excessus]

Are the scarab occult obsec? That's the main draw with the warband, everything is obsec! :)

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Are the scarab occult obsec? That's the main draw with the warband, everything is obsec!

Can't have Scarab Occult or even Rubrics in a Chaos Warband. No Tzaangors either. Also, it doesn't fit into the Grand Coven.

 

Now, can you have a minimum Grand Coven and then throw in a Thousand Sons Warband as another detachment to get some ObSec units in your army? Sure. Not the way I went about it, but doable.

[Excessus]

No, I mean if the unit can get obsec in any way. I'm not using the Grand Coven because I don't think the benefits are worth it, I'd rather have a warband and obsec everywhere. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

No, I mean if the unit can get obsec in any way. I'm not using the Grand Coven because I don't think the benefits are worth it, I'd rather have a warband and obsec everywhere. 

Nope. Chaos Warband is very specific and doesn't include Scarabs. Also, Scarabs are Elites, not Troops, so you can't do it in a CAD either. Sorry.

[Prot]

Okay I'll try asking this differently....

 

I would stick with red and gold. And use conversion kits on BoP marines.

 

How could I use these in the codex? Or did I kind of waste my money (ie the formation doesn't allow CSM)

[Caustic63]

No, I mean if the unit can get obsec in any way. I'm not using the Grand Coven because I don't think the benefits are worth it, I'd rather have a warband and obsec everywhere. 

 

To each his own.  I've been reading through the book now for a couple days, and I can say it's disgusting how powerful the War Cabal can be when maxed out in any game above 1500 points. Since the Reroll 1s to saving throws is non-conditional in game, your Scarab Occult Terminators become about as close to Invincible as can be conceived of in 40k. Anything they get shot with that's not AP2 is just going to bounce off (barring really bad luck) and if you cast at least one blessing on them their Invulnerable save becomes exceptional versus even AP2. On top of this, all the non-psychic firepower the formation produces is AP3.

 

In the circles of Chaos, Death Guard are the talk of the town this week... but even they can't equal THIS combination of durability and firepower, at least imo. A tiny contingent of allied Tzeentch Daemons (Herald w Paradox & ten Horrors) could bulk up your power dice and model counts through mass and model size, making it easier to cast the psychic powers you want to. From my board experience playing Thousand Sons (I took them to a national tournament once) your biggest and most important currency is your Warp Charge dice... the more the merrier.

[Dusktiger]

Okay I'll try asking this differently....

 

I would stick with red and gold. And use conversion kits on BoP marines.

 

How could I use these in the codex? Or did I kind of waste my money (ie the formation doesn't allow CSM)

if that's what you have prot, you should be able to just make them squad for squad equivalents of the rubric marines and scarab occult terminators. 

 

you're basically asking if you can play the WoM supplement using the BoP aesthetic of models with FW conversion kits, right?

 

it's definitely doable.  split the 30 marines into 3 squads of Rubrics.  whether its an even 10 each, or a 15/10/5. or a 20/5/5 split is up to you.  I havent looked at the BoP sprues, but if there's some kind of Force Staff looking weapon, or something you can use to Counts-As, then you can make the Aspiring Sorcerer for each squad just fine.  the only difference between him and the other in the new kit is a half cape off his butt and two long purity scroll things off the chest.  can't remember what catholic priests call them.  and then the staff.

 

For the terminators, they all have to have a combi bolter and a power sword.  the sorcerer has a staff and combi-bolter, but can swap the combi-bolter for a power sword.  i believe the BoP kit gives you a heavy flamer, so there's your optional Heavy Warpflamer. Is there an assault cannon too? not sure what you'd do about the Hellfyre Missile Rack if you wanted that.

 

Then you have Ahriman, so you're just left looking for something to add into the list to be a Sorcerer or Exalted Sorcerer, and you have a full  War Cabal.  If you have a Land Raider for the list, take that as an Auxiliary choice, and you have a legal War Coven detachment.  If you split your 30 marines into a 15 and a 10 model squad, the remaining 5 can be converted into sorcerers.

[Minsc]

 

No, I mean if the unit can get obsec in any way. I'm not using the Grand Coven because I don't think the benefits are worth it, I'd rather have a warband and obsec everywhere. 

 

To each his own.  I've been reading through the book now for a couple days, and I can say it's disgusting how powerful the War Cabal can be when maxed out in any game above 1500 points. Since the Reroll 1s to saving throws is non-conditional in game, your Scarab Occult Terminators become about as close to Invincible as can be conceived of in 40k. Anything they get shot with that's not AP2 is just going to bounce off (barring really bad luck) and if you cast at least one blessing on them their Invulnerable save becomes exceptional versus even AP2. On top of this, all the non-psychic firepower the formation produces is AP3.

 

 

On the other hand, those 15 Occult Terminators makes up half your armylist at 2000 pts as well, and I wouldn't bring a full War Cabal at anything under 2000 pts, as you won't have the points to gear up your characters. I really wouldn't call it "disgustingly powerful", far from it. A Adeptus Mechanicus War Convocation, now *thats* disgustingly powerful.

 

I made a 2000 pts War Cabal-list, aiming for favoured of tzeentch. I wasn't really impressed by the list: most regular 2000 pts lists would steam-roll it, 2+ rerollable 3++ or not - those termies don't have the firepower to take on a army of their own, not even with Sorcerer-support, and they will go down due to sheer weight of fire.

[Excessus]

Prot, remember that the TS have access to all the CSM formations and not just the WoM ones or the Grand Coven. Take a warband formation and make use of all the normal troops instead of rubrics.

[ChaosReigns]

Caustic63 have you had any luck maxing out a War Cabal at 1850 points or 2000 points? For that matter has anyone? I agree that Favoured of Tzeentch is a pretty powerful special rule and it would really help to compensate for the Rubrics' and Scarab Occult's usual weakness to volume of fire, but I'm having trouble getting decently kitted characters in there to support those squads - and they need it too, since it seems doubtful that there are going to be any points left over for vehicles or whatever else.

[Minsc]

Caustic63 have you had any luck maxing out a War Cabal at 1850 points or 2000 points? For that matter has anyone? I agree that Favoured of Tzeentch is a pretty powerful special rule and it would really help to compensate for the Rubrics' and Scarab Occult's usual weakness to volume of fire, but I'm having trouble getting decently kitted characters in there to support those squads - and they need it too, since it seems doubtful that there are going to be any points left over for vehicles or whatever else.

 

I made a list for 2000 pts and quickly noted that I will never even try to go for Favoured of Tzeentch below that sum, because even at 2000 pts I had trouble kitting out my Sorcerers.

 

Can't really imagine that this is a competetive list on any level though, even with those rerolls.

[Trokair]

Dear Fellow Sorcerers

 

Now that Tzeentch has granted our former brethrens access to new weapons I seek your advice on how best to utilise these new armaments.

 

When I first heard that the New Rubric Marines came with a full set of flamers I had thought of fielding a unit of 10 with flamers too clear objectives. But as the flamers cost way more points then I thought they would (I was expecting a free swap for the inferno bolter or maybe 1 or 2 points, not 7, given the loss of AP and chance to make the opponent more survivable).

 

Now I am thinking of treating them more like traditional ‘special weapons’ and only have a small number in a squad of bolter rubric.

What number of flamers would you put in a squad of 10 and 20 rubrics? I am thinking 3 and 4 respectively.

 

Secondly, soulreaper cannons, they are better than inferno bolters, but are they worth the cost compared to having another rubric marine? 

 

For the terminators the cost is more but noticeably less than another model, and they can overwatch, but with the rubrics I am not so sure.

 

Lastly, the hand flamer, is there any point to using it over a inferno bolt pistol?

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Sadly as far as it looks, the rubricae might as well have no options, the ones we were given being so overcosted as to not be worth it.

[Charlo]

Well the Soul Reaper is weird, as you can't even have it until Ten men, so the argument for "another marine" is somewhat invalid in the context of a single squad.

 

From an objective point of view, are those 2 extra shots and 6" of range worth the 30 points? Maybe not. If we could take them at 5-man squads I'd say go for it. One alternate view is that, inside a Rhino you can shoot the Soulreaper out of the top hatch, along with a bolter and some Witchfires making it actually pretty cool. Weird the Rhino's can't get inferno bolts though... That would have been awesome.

 

The flamers would have been nice but for some reason got Warpflame. Unless you fight hordes on a regular basis don't bother - though a jump rubric unit with the flamers could be kinda cool (via the relic). But regardless, I'd actually use none per unit of Rubricae. 7 Points is a bargain! ...For your opponent for FNP on his squads.

 

Rubrics are best used endlessly striding forward throwing out some powers from the Sorc where possible, being a nuisance thanks to 3++ (meaning they don't really need cover most of the time).

[Raven1]

For the soul reaper cannon I think it needs to be looked at this way. What's more points efficient/kill

 

1x 10 man squad w/ soul reaper cannons

Or

2x 5 man squads w/o soul reaper cannon

 

Do you want more sorcerers or more AP3 shots?

 

The flamer should have been a straight swap and ap3, not a purchase option. I see it as a downgrade you pay for. You lose range, ap and have the chance of giving your opponent FNP. Unless your facing I would never take it. Even then, I would probably use the points for more bodies, because you can't even threaten over watch without paying an additional 30 points or so.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Any Thoughts on the Warpflame pistol? Or is it as bad as the warpflamers?

[Raven1]

Any Thoughts on the Warpflame pistol? Or is it as bad as the warpflamers?

 

I believe its S:3 AP: 5  So even worse then the flamers themselves.

 

I suppose they have their place with the helm of the third eye and Astral Grimoire but thats adding one if not two independent characters to the squad.

[Charlo]

For the soul reaper cannon I think it needs to be looked at this way. What's more points efficient/kill

 

1x 10 man squad w/ soul reaper cannons

Or

2x 5 man squads w/o soul reaper cannon

 

Do you want more sorcerers or more AP3 shots?

 

That is a good shout, you get more sorcs with small units, all of which add an extra charge to the pool who can, cast two spells with the decurion buffs (so, Force and something else).

 

MSU is kinda shaping up to be okay for Rubrics? Maybe? You just maximize Sorcerers that way I suppose - which is really damn cool.

[dakkamasta]

I agree with charlo. It seems Tsons are all about the sorcerers now. Especially now with exalted sorcerers you can make a sorcerer more choppy than a kitted out chaos lord.

 

I would run min squad of rubrics to maximise warp charges and run exalted sorcerers on discs with spawn.

 

You guys got some of the best relics out of the new legions. Seer's bane on an exalted sorcerer with divination for rerolls and force can wipe out wraithknights and castellan maniples alike in 1 round of combat potentially. The jump relic is all kinds of awesome, the no deny one is great for getting off things like invis. This is where Tsons shine so get out there make a change! (Pun intended)

[Raven1]

There are certainly some powerful options in existence we just have to find them, lol. I agree a maxed War Cabal just doesn't cut at normal/smaller point games. Even then I would probably want min-maxed units w/ Magnus.

 

I'm still waiting... :( I got Traitor Legions, not Wrath of Magnus and my wife won't let me have any of my new toys till Christmas, lol.

 

I think there is some power in what will be the non mandatory Aux detach men's too. Like an infiltrating Astral grimoire mutilatorstar from the cut of desteuction.

 

I'm not sure if the debuffs would work but the leadership debuffs from Raptor Talon/ heldrake formation and the Seer'd Bane.

[Aelorthus]

Ahriman's Exiles is the way to go now. It's model thin but very powerful with summoning and LOTS of Warp Charge. Running all sorcerers+Ahriman is feasible and very powerful with Coruscating beam on all the sorcerers. For their points cost Rubrics are NEVER worth it and Scarab Occults are questionable as well. Go Sorcerers or go home.

[dakkamasta]

Precisely. I mainly play black legion but have wanted a small tzeentch/TSons element for a while now and ahrimans exiles is what im building up. Having 3+ casting with rerolls for spell familiars means you can reliably 1 dice powers.

 

Exalted sorcerers in discs are probably the best tool Tsons have. Yes they are expensive but you get so much. A lvl 3 sorc with a 4++ which can easily become 3++ thats t5 with base 5 attacks at I5 with a free S9 AP2 lance blast to top it off? Thats not including the awesome relics.

 

The cyclopia cabal is popular for good reason. Ahrimans exiles is an elite cyclopia cabal. Hell i wouldnt event bother with the detachment and run exiles formation with a CAD or something like that.

[Charlo]

Feels like it will be hard to survive long with just a few psykers on the board though... Unless you mean use the exiles in additon to other random stuff.

 

One step further the War Seckt is pretty dope, just more casting options with not needing line of sight and Magnus instead of Arhiman.

[Minsc]

Looking forward to see some more TS lists and item-combos being developed. 

 

I doubt spamming psykers and nothing else is viable though, you'll have to few bodies on the table.