++ The Brotherhood of Dust - A Thousand Sons Community ++

[SoulGlaive]

I have a large AoS Tzeentch army and a fair amount of it would port over to 40k seamlessly and as such i am currently considering adding some 1ksons to the mix to have a true Tzeentch force.

My question is how important are Rubrics to competitive play?

The force i invasion would have the 1ksons element consisting of their characters, scarab terminators, and possibly some dreads. With demons / tzaangors / and cultists bulking out the force for numbers.

The area I'm in has a lot of very competitive players and i want to make sure I haven't lost at the list building stage. On that note, I don't intend to spam 100 brimstones or be "that guy" but I would like to put up a fight while using what i already have to kick start the project.

Appreciate any insight

[Grendaxe]

So with more details coming in with the DG codex, it looks like the generic units they get access to won't have the DG specific traits like T5 and disgusting resilience. Probably not a good sign for our generic units and access to inferno bolt guns and 5++ across the board.

 

Onto the good news though, from what I've read DG should get around 16 new kits in their 33 units. Surely GW will add to our 6 kits and 21 units now if they want to go some way to justifying the codex?

I highly doubt it. Releasing 2 chaos space marine kit releases close to each other is from a business perspective not really a great idea.

People who are interested in playing with CSM will already have spend most/all of their money.

 

Unless of course TS wont get a codex this year.

 

I have a large AoS Tzeentch army and a fair amount of it would port over to 40k seamlessly and as such i am currently considering adding some 1ksons to the mix to have a true Tzeentch force.

 

My question is how important are Rubrics to competitive play?

 

The force i invasion would have the 1ksons element consisting of their characters, scarab terminators, and possibly some dreads. With demons / tzaangors / and cultists bulking out the force for numbers.

 

The area I'm in has a lot of very competitive players and i want to make sure I haven't lost at the list building stage. On that note, I don't intend to spam 100 brimstones or be "that guy" but I would like to put up a fight while using what i already have to kick start the project.

 

Appreciate any insight

If you have enough horrors/tzaangors i don't think you will need rubrics. Troops main purpose is to grab objectives and shield characters.

I don't see horrors/tzaangors preforming any worse (May need some reinforcement points for the horrors available unless you go for brimstone spam)

 

But overall i'm just not too happy with the performance of tzeentch daemons in general. Maybe it is because quiet some people in my area play with grey knights but i cant be help to think they are pretty bad for multiple reasons.

[Prot]

So with more details coming in with the DG codex, it looks like the generic units they get access to won't have the DG specific traits like T5 and disgusting resilience. Probably not a good sign for our generic units and access to inferno bolt guns and 5++ across the board.

 

Onto the good news though, from what I've read DG should get around 16 new kits in their 33 units. Surely GW will add to our 6 kits and 21 units now if they want to go some way to justifying the codex?

 

I agree with the generic units looking like they won't get any "thousand sons" inherent rules. I'm a little disappointed because it makes sense to me to have some generic units that fit into the Legion very well and adopt their methods and wargear.

 

On a practical note I always find it annoying for speed rolling to roll a ton of dice one way, and then change for the odd ball guy who can't have Legion gear. I know it's a minor thing, just an annoyance. :)

 

 

 

I have a large AoS Tzeentch army and a fair amount of it would port over to 40k seamlessly and as such i am currently considering adding some 1ksons to the mix to have a true Tzeentch force.

 

My question is how important are Rubrics to competitive play?

 

The force i invasion would have the 1ksons element consisting of their characters, scarab terminators, and possibly some dreads. With demons / tzaangors / and cultists bulking out the force for numbers.

 

The area I'm in has a lot of very competitive players and i want to make sure I haven't lost at the list building stage. On that note, I don't intend to spam 100 brimstones or be "that guy" but I would like to put up a fight while using what i already have to kick start the project.

 

Appreciate any insight

 

 

Rubrics are absolutely not essential. Especially if you have a large Tzeentch Daemon force. There's a guy at my GW that annihilates most people by playing a mostly Tzeentch core.... just adds Magnus. He can pull out Magnus and still uses two big birds, and the Changeling to nerf opponent shooting.

 

There are a LOT of Brimstones in his army, but I think GW have turned them down twice now? (once with points, and something to do with their rules, I can't remember which rules).

 

The point is while he uses an exceptionally high amount of Brimstones, the army still functions very well (possibly even better than straight Thousand Sons) so in my opinion you'd have zero issue starting with you current models and adding in what you can over time from the Thousand Sons Legion.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Do you guys think you'll see new models come out when TS gets their codex? Personally I'd like to see a psychic/sorcerer Helbrute get released for 40k. I'm kinda torn between TS and DG right now. I like Mortarion a lot more than magnus and DG terminators more than Scarab Occults... but rubrics definitely look better than plague marines.

 

Random side question, how do Thousand Sons match up against Grey Knights this edition? 

[JamesI]

Do you guys think you'll see new models come out when TS gets their codex? Personally I'd like to see a psychic/sorcerer Helbrute get released for 40k. I'm kinda torn between TS and DG right now. I like Mortarion a lot more than magnus and DG terminators more than Scarab Occults... but rubrics definitely look better than plague marines.

 

Random side question, how do Thousand Sons match up against Grey Knights this edition? 

I don't think we will get anything with the possible exception of a new helbrute or perhaps a tank variant like DG got (or perhaps a new daemon prince).

 

We might get new rules, say different types of sorcerers than just regular and exalted, but they will likely be buildable with the exalted kit so no new kit.

[Grendaxe]

Do you guys think you'll see new models come out when TS gets their codex? Personally I'd like to see a psychic/sorcerer Helbrute get released for 40k. I'm kinda torn between TS and DG right now. I like Mortarion a lot more than magnus and DG terminators more than Scarab Occults... but rubrics definitely look better than plague marines.

 

Random side question, how do Thousand Sons match up against Grey Knights this edition? 

Personally i don't think so. I think we will receive some CSM entries and maybe from AoS but not really models. I hope we will, but i just don't see it happening. Not trying to be negative just it's just hope is the first step on the road to disappointment  .

 

Before their codex it was pretty even. I haven't played them against yet with codex but i'm guessing we are getting blown off the table now  

Even though their codex wasn't that strong it still helps a lot (the +1 to deny and cast for example). But i think pretty much everything with codex is stronger than stuff without codex.

[SoulGlaive]

Thanks for the input.

Next question. Do i need the Chaos Space Marine Dex to run Thousand Sons?

I have the index Chaos book, but seeing how Thousand Sons should be getting their own here in the near future should I even bother picking it up or just wait?

[1000 Sons]

^^^

 

The only thing for thousand sons in the new codex are the spells and stratagem, but you can buy the card set for that.

 

 

So with more details coming in with the DG codex, it looks like the generic units they get access to won't have the DG specific traits like T5 and disgusting resilience. Probably not a good sign for our generic units and access to inferno bolt guns and 5++ across the board.

Onto the good news though, from what I've read DG should get around 16 new kits in their 33 units. Surely GW will add to our 6 kits and 21 units now if they want to go some way to justifying the codex?

 

 

I agree with the generic units looking like they won't get any "thousand sons" inherent rules. I'm a little disappointed because it makes sense to me to have some generic units that fit into the Legion very well and adopt their methods and wargear.

 

On a practical note I always find it annoying for speed rolling to roll a ton of dice one way, and then change for the odd ball guy who can't have Legion gear. I know it's a minor thing, just an annoyance. :)

 

 

 

I have a large AoS Tzeentch army and a fair amount of it would port over to 40k seamlessly and as such i am currently considering adding some 1ksons to the mix to have a true Tzeentch force.

My question is how important are Rubrics to competitive play?

The force i invasion would have the 1ksons element consisting of their characters, scarab terminators, and possibly some dreads. With demons / tzaangors / and cultists bulking out the force for numbers.

The area I'm in has a lot of very competitive players and i want to make sure I haven't lost at the list building stage. On that note, I don't intend to spam 100 brimstones or be "that guy" but I would like to put up a fight while using what i already have to kick start the project.

Appreciate any insight

 

 

 

Rubrics are absolutely not essential. Especially if you have a large Tzeentch Daemon force. There's a guy at my GW that annihilates most people by playing a mostly Tzeentch core.... just adds Magnus. He can pull out Magnus and still uses two big birds, and the Changeling to nerf opponent shooting.

 

There are a LOT of Brimstones in his army, but I think GW have turned them down twice now? (once with points, and something to do with their rules, I can't remember which rules).

 

The point is while he uses an exceptionally high amount of Brimstones, the army still functions very well (possibly even better than straight Thousand Sons) so in my opinion you'd have zero issue starting with you current models and adding in what you can over time from the Thousand Sons Legion.

Thousand sons are garbage for competitive play, stick to your daemons and like said above, Magnus is the only thing worth taking from the sons. For competitive get you 90 brims, malefic lords, and maybe some giant chaos spawn.

[JamesI]

Thanks for the input.

 

Next question. Do i need the Chaos Space Marine Dex to run Thousand Sons?

 

I have the index Chaos book, but seeing how Thousand Sons should be getting their own here in the near future should I even bother picking it up or just wait?

You don't need it.  It helps for the extra psychic powers. 

 

But once we get our codex it will be entirely worthless unless you want to have allies from another legion.

[SoulGlaive]

Was under the impression there were some point changes from the index to codex in addition to the added god psychic powers and stratagems. Is this true? 

@1000 sons

​Demons will be included but I want 1ksons to have a presence. Plan is to include some Scarab Terminators at a minimum, and possibly some support in the form of tanks/dreads. I haven't looked much at Forgeworld stuff yet but won't rule it out. Especially a fan of the Leviathans, it wouldn't take much to convince me to add one. Using renegade Malefic Lords and squads in place of cultist as human thralls/lackeys is definitely an option.
I also have an unbuilt Knight somewhere that i could throw in, Is there a preferred weapons load out? Double Gattling Cannons come to mind initially but open to suggestions.

My current thought process is two 5 man Scarab Terminator squads, and a terminator sorcerer or Ahriman to start with. Then go from there. Magnus is a bit pricey for now but will be considered down the line if I continue to expand upon the project

With the Scarab terminators is there a down side to putting both the Missile Rack and Cannon/Flamer on the same terminator?

Currently I have a Dark Eldar and Harlequin force as my only 40k army. So this proposed project offers some great narrative aspects as well.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

^^^

 

 

Thousand sons are garbage for competitive play, stick to your daemons and like said above, Magnus is the only thing worth taking from the sons. For competitive get you 90 brims, malefic lords, and maybe some giant chaos spawn.

 

 

I'm sure that'll change once the Codex drops... Let's be honest GW is knocking the ball out of the park with Death Guard and it really seems like they're doing Chaos some long due justice. I don't see them leaving Thousand Sons out to dry for long. 

[1000 Sons]

Was under the impression there were some point changes from the index to codex in addition to the added god psychic powers and stratagems. Is this true? 

@1000 sons

​Demons will be included but I want 1ksons to have a presence. Plan is to include some Scarab Terminators at a minimum, and possibly some support in the form of tanks/dreads. I haven't looked much at Forgeworld stuff yet but won't rule it out. Especially a fan of the Leviathans, it wouldn't take much to convince me to add one. Using renegade Malefic Lords and squads in place of cultist as human thralls/lackeys is definitely an option.

I also have an unbuilt Knight somewhere that i could throw in, Is there a preferred weapons load out? Double Gattling Cannons come to mind initially but open to suggestions.

My current thought process is two 5 man Scarab Terminator squads, and a terminator sorcerer or Ahriman to start with. Then go from there. Magnus is a bit pricey for now but will be considered down the line if I continue to expand upon the project

With the Scarab terminators is there a down side to putting both the Missile Rack and Cannon/Flamer on the same terminator?

Currently I have a Dark Eldar and Harlequin force as my only 40k army. So this proposed project offers some great narrative aspects as well.

Scarab termies will deep strike in, and will be in rapid fire range so will shoot 4 shots each, the special heavy weapon becomes a bit redundant. The missile rack is fantastic. I have heard people running 10 man scarab units with a presience casting termie sorcerer to good effect. Their close combat is poor though, tears running down your face poor.

 

If you want to be really competitive you have to be 'that guy' but if you just want a solid list that will take you to turn 5 regularly, you have plenty to choose from. Not having magnus, or a lord of change kind of super target is tough for sons. Rubrics and scarab are so expensive you need to give then a few turns of being ignored by having the enemy focusing everything on magnus or such.

[SoulGlaive]

Well I do already have a LoC and a Knight. I could use one or both as a deal with me now distraction.

 

Thinking of the following

1KSons Vanguard with Termi Sorceror. Scarab Termis x2. Hellbrute x1. Or would 1 unit of 10 be better and 2 hellbrutes?

Demons Battalion with Herald on Disc. Changling. Horrors.

Super heavy Auxillary. Knight with dual Gatling.

 

Doesn't leave room for much else. I'd like to squeeze a Astartes Demon Prince and some Tzaangor but man do the points add up quick.

[Ulfast]

Is it not sad thatcso many think that our basic troop, the ribric marines seems to be a bad chose in a thousand sons army? 

 

I have only tried them in a regular chaos army but my opponets fear them alot as they put out lot of shoots that cand amage the most and at the same time take a punch with the rule all is dust.

[Skerr]

A lot of opponents (At least my buddies) have started fielding d2 or better weapons when they know they are facing Rubrics.  For some folks this can be frustrating for others it may be that the d2 or better weapons are being used on our expensive troops and not elsewhere which might be fine for some.  It might come down to how expendable you want your Rubrics (troops) to be.

 

Are some you finding if you are not playing rubrics your regular opponents are not taking as much d2 weapons or are they doing it anyway?

 

A strategem that allows them to increase their rate of fire would help.

 

I played Eldar and tabled my buddy against his aspect heavy army. Next game he took a wraith army and tabled me.  I made some mistakes but still my Rubrics had no answer from his wraithguard weapons.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

very much what I am feeling right now when fielding rubrics. but even then it feels like other options can be available to us which can make opponents think twice about laying waste to the rubrics. Its all about getting in range, so i do wonder if when playing against an army with large amounts of D2, if rhinos are our answer.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Are people taking terminator sorcerers to deepstrike alongside thier scarab occult to support them, or are the points and powers better spent supporting other units?
I mainly try and deepstrike them so they can be supported by my other sorcerers, I admit I am tryign to find a use for my terminaotr sorcerers as they just don;t seem to bring much over cheaper normal ones for the 10 melta bomb price tag.

[Archaeinox]

Lately I am finding that there's not much I can do against the Guilliman and aggressor/hellblaster spam, still. 

 

That is, not without going the Malefic Lord route and taking dumb FW units just to survive

 

Pretty frustrating.

[SoulGlaive]

After reading through the various advise I've devised the following as a list to aim for. Let me know what you think.


Thousand Sons Battalion (CP +3)

 

+ HQ +
Daemon Prince with Wings [189 Pts]: MoT, Malefic Talon (Pair), Warp Bolter
Sorcerer in Terminator Armor [154 Pts]: MoT, Combi-Bolter, Force Sword

 

+ Troops +
Rubric Marines [142 Pts]: Aspiring Sorcerer, Force Stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol

. 4x Rubric Marine, 3x Inferno Boltgun, Soulreaper Cannon
Tzaangors [70 Pts]: 10x Tzaangor
Tzaangors [70 Pts]: 10x Tzaangor

+ Elites +
Scarab Occult Terminators [269 Pts]:  Scarab Sorcerer, Force Stave, Inferno Combi-Bolter

. 4x Scarab Terminator: 4x Power Sword, 3x Combi-Bolter, Hellfyre Missile Rack, Soulreaper Cannon
Scarab Occult Terminators [269 Pts]: Scarab Sorcerer, Force Stave, Inferno Combi-Bolter
. 4x Scarab Terminator: 4x Power Sword, 3x Combi-Bolter, Hellfyre Missile Rack, Soulreaper Cannon

 

+ Heavy Support +
Chaos Predator [202 Pts]: Twin Lascannon
. Two Lascannons: 2x Lascannon
Chaos Predator [202 Pts]: Twin Lascannon
. Two Lascannons: 2x Lascannon


Demon Battalion (CP +3)

 

+ HQ +
Be'lakor [240 Pts]
The Changeling [100 Pts]

 

+ Troops +

Horrors [23 Pts]: Blue Horror, 9x Brimstone Horror
Horrors [23 Pts]: Blue Horror, 9x Brimstone Horror
Horrors [23 Pts]: Blue Horror, 9x Brimstone Horror
Horrors [23 Pts]: Blue Horror, 9x Brimstone Horror

1999 points in total with 9 CP Tzeentch enough for ya?

 

*edit to make battle scribe format better*

[Zodd1888]

Solid list. You've got all the bases covered.

 

The only alteration I'd consider would be to grab a Herald instead of Belakor and use the points to get some Spawn for some speed, but that's totally up to preference.

[Souljet]

Lately I am finding that there's not much I can do against the Guilliman and aggressor/hellblaster spam, still. 

 

That is, not without going the Malefic Lord route and taking dumb FW units just to survive

 

Pretty frustrating.

I haven't played Guilliman yet but if I did I'd try throwing a large unit or 2 of spawn at him and his retinue asap which should tie them up for a while at least. Give them a sorcerer and/or daemon prince nearby to warptime and buff them and they might even beat him.

[Grendaxe]

 

Lately I am finding that there's not much I can do against the Guilliman and aggressor/hellblaster spam, still. 

 

That is, not without going the Malefic Lord route and taking dumb FW units just to survive

 

Pretty frustrating.

I haven't played Guilliman yet but if I did I'd try throwing a large unit or 2 of spawn at him and his retinue asap which should tie them up for a while at least. Give them a sorcerer and/or daemon prince nearby to warptime and buff them and they might even beat him.

 

Spawns will be dead before you come anywhere near guilliman.

Its just the T5 that makes spawns a bit durable as they have only a 5+ armor save. But with the reroll hits and wounds he will absolutely decimate spawns in a single round of shooting. Not to mention that ultramarine tactics allow all units to fall back and still shoot (at -1 to hit but again you get to reroll)

[Souljet]

Spawns will be dead before you come anywhere near guilliman.

Its just the T5 that makes spawns a bit durable as they have only a 5+ armor save. But with the reroll hits and wounds he will absolutely decimate spawns in a single round of shooting. Not to mention that ultramarine tactics allow all units to fall back and still shoot (at -1 to hit but again you get to reroll)

Fair enough and good points. At the least it will give them something to think about and divert their firepower for a round or 2.

What would you recommend?

[Grendaxe]

Honestly, I'm just not really sure we have a really good option. This is what i was saying before armies with a codex are just stronger than those that don't.

 

If i had to counter it some way i would would go with magnus + large scarab occult terminator drop.
Use magnus to cast the +1 hit power on the terminators + keeping him close is a 2+ re-roll 1 to hit for terminators. Good to blow away any marines near guiliman.
And using magnus on the charge to kill any dreads/tanks in the aura bubble.
Ignore guiliman until you can super smite his ass. 

But this is all hypothetical, i'm not playing much. Just painting and waiting for the codex to drop 

[Raven1]

That would be my suggestion, alpha strike and once the ancillary is dead go for Gulliman and you can negate his invul save as well with Death hex. I'm not sure you bring a general or all-comers list when an opponent has a Lord of war or a selection of units that maximize one portion of the game like that.