++ The Brotherhood of Dust - A Thousand Sons Community ++

[The Yncarne]

I'm thinking they will use those Warzones mentioned pre-launch as the main campaigns upon which events like Fate of Konor and Gathering Storm happen. As to the details, I imagine it is going to include some primarchs, but as to how it happens, I have no clue.

[ChaosReigns]

Right but if we use the new points and the new listing (IE: soulreaper at 5man) that means Thousand Sons are Elites unless your buddies houserule them as Troops in the interim between now and the Codex.

 

 

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but why would this be the case? Would we not use the most up to date datasheet as a matter of course? That means Thousand Sons players are using the modified rules and points costs regardless. Whether Rubric Marines are elites or troops is based entirely on their 'Legion' keyword, right, just like with World Eaters and Emperor's Children and their respective Cult Marines? That means that Rubric Marines with the Thousand Sons 'Legion' keyword, using the new datasheet, would become troops, in theory. You're taking the stuff you need from the index that has no equivalent in the codex, and using the updated materials from the codex that have replaced the index.

 

Still, it would be nice to see Games Workshop make an official ruling on these sorts of questions via FAQ.

 

Then again, Battlescribe has Rubric Marines under its Thousand Sons army still using the old rules and old points costs, so maybe I'm totally off base.

[Skerr]

IIRC and someone add more detail if I am wrong, the new CSM Dex allows WE and EC to use Berzerkers and Noise Marines as troops though does not mention this for RM or PM.  Again I might be wrong as I did not get the CSM dex.

This leads us to assume the DG and TS codexes (GW spelling) will open these options up when they drop but the current RM and PM entries in CSM dex do not allow this.  Again might be off base.

 

I think the gist is most opponents should be cool with a house rule allowing this as it looks like this will be the case when those Dexes come out  

 

Amirite?

[ChaosReigns]

Ah, alright. The interplay between the codex and index seems straightforward enough in theory but in practice ends up posing a lot of questions that I guess won't get official answers until Thousand Sons and Death Guard get their respective books. Oh well.

 

I'll just keep using the old rules/points costs for the Rubrics to be safe for the moment then.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

So any idea which points costs we are supposed to use?

The fact the changes have been done yet no FAQ/clear statement on it kind of stings as it inidicates just how little GW think of the TS fanbase.

Decided I'm going to get a Xiphon as it's fast and brings high level shooting the rest of our list lacks in real quantities.

[Aasfresser]

IIRC and someone add more detail if I am wrong, the new CSM Dex allows WE and EC to use Berzerkers and Noise Marines as troops though does not mention this for RM or PM.  Again I might be wrong as I did not get the CSM dex.

This leads us to assume the DG and TS codexes (GW spelling) will open these options up when they drop but the current RM and PM entries in CSM dex do not allow this.  Again might be off base.

 

I think the gist is most opponents should be cool with a house rule allowing this as it looks like this will be the case when those Dexes come out  

 

Amirite?

Because DG and TS are not part of the codex. That's why there is nothing mentioned about the Thousand Sons as an army or the Death Gard. The index on the other hand stated that both DG and TS can se their cult troops as troops. 

 

Legacy of the Rubricae

The Battlefield Role of THOUSAND SONS

Rubric Marines is Troops instead of Elites.

 

 

This here should apply as soon as your whole army has the Thousand Sons keyword. And it doesn't say anything about from where the datasheet should be taken. But the FAQ specifically states to take the newest datasheet. Any opponent arguing otherwise is simply a dick. And using battlescribe as a source of what's right and wrong is useless, because they now exactly as much as we do.

[Raven1]

Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released?

In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.

In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.

So any idea which points costs we are supposed to use?

The fact the changes have been done yet no FAQ/clear statement

There was an FAQ and clear statement about it.

See me quote of myself it was on that last page and has been discussed.

[JamesI]

 

IIRC and someone add more detail if I am wrong, the new CSM Dex allows WE and EC to use Berzerkers and Noise Marines as troops though does not mention this for RM or PM.  Again I might be wrong as I did not get the CSM dex.

This leads us to assume the DG and TS codexes (GW spelling) will open these options up when they drop but the current RM and PM entries in CSM dex do not allow this.  Again might be off base.

 

I think the gist is most opponents should be cool with a house rule allowing this as it looks like this will be the case when those Dexes come out  

 

Amirite?

Because DG and TS are not part of the codex. That's why there is nothing mentioned about the Thousand Sons as an army or the Death Gard. The index on the other hand stated that both DG and TS can se their cult troops as troops. 

 

Legacy of the Rubricae

The Battlefield Role of THOUSAND SONS

Rubric Marines is Troops instead of Elites.

 

 

This here should apply as soon as your whole army has the Thousand Sons keyword. And it doesn't say anything about from where the datasheet should be taken. But the FAQ specifically states to take the newest datasheet. Any opponent arguing otherwise is simply a dick. And using battlescribe as a source of what's right and wrong is useless, because they now exactly as much as we do.

 

Remember, nothing in the codex can have Keyword Thousand Sons.  The rubric datasheet in the codex can not be Thousand Sons.

[Raven1]

Except GW has already said that you can use the updated points. So if you want to argue I can't use the datasheet I can use the points value table and I still get the discounts and the updated psychic power table.

[JamesI]

Except GW has already said that you can use the updated points. So if you want to argue I can't use the datasheet I can use the points value table and I still get the discounts and the updated psychic power table.

I have never seen a link where gw actually said that.  If the new costs could be assumed, why FAQ the index costs for Daemons?

 

Now gw did say, we can use the updated psychic power table, that is correct.

[Raven1]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

 

It says in here to use the updated points specifically. You have to scroll down a bit to find it.

Y'all this is literally on the last page

[JamesI]

i don't think your link says what you think it says.  

 

From your link;

 

"If I have a Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves army, will I need to buy Codex: Space Marines to use my army?

You don’t have to. Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released. Rules for new models not covered in the index (like the upcoming Redemptor Dreadnought) will be available in the box with the model and matched play points for these units will be made available online."

 

Why would we be different?  We have our own codex.

[Raven1]

Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released?

In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.

 

In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.

You are right though I'm not focusing on a question that specifies how to reconcile multiple codexes in one index specifically all adeptus Astartes without mention Heretic Astartes at all in anyway shape for or fashion. Additionally as stated above as long as MY opponent and I agree I can do what I want and seeing as I play at a small local game store and not official events it doesnt really matter to me.

[JamesI]

 

Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released?

In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.

 

In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.

You are right though I'm not focusing on a question that specifies how to reconcile multiple codexes in one index specifically all adeptus Astartes without mention Heretic Astartes at all in anyway shape for or fashion. Additionally as stated above as long as MY opponent and I agree I can do what I want and seeing as I play at a small local game store and not official events it doesnt really matter to me.

 

 

Oh, I thought we were talking official rules, not house rules.  Sorry

[Souljet]

 Oh, I thought we were talking official rules, not house rules.  Sorry

I think that's the key. I don't think anybody would try and stop you using the new datasheets and points in a friendly game, but officially imo RAW we probably have to wait for our codex. The additional psychic powers though have been specifically addressed.

[Skerr]

I saw some sources cited I thought where new point costs were available.  If there were such things said by developers on Twitch, Seminars or the Community site there would be a link somewhere in this thread.

 

I with Souljet though.  It will all come out in the wash hopefully soon.  Still hoping for an Xmas release for Sons...

 

Shifting gears I also hope our command auras are tweaked.  I have a harlies army and played Cegorach's Revenge detachment.  Back then Harlies had an invuln of 5 and the detachment allowed reroll of ones. It looked great on paper though its positive effect on my army was negligible.  I understand why, because we are the invuln army but it not very dynamic at all.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I am not a TS player.. just reading through.

You guys are making this way harder than it needs to be. GW already released a statement saying "use the updated point costs in the codex for units in the Index."

Point 1: The index has not been invalidated just because the Codex has been released.

Point 2: The Index actually has the rules stipulating the battlefield role changes for Plague Marines and Rubrics in their respective Armies. Focus in on the "battlefield role" changes. These units are always elites unless you are taking their respective Armies! For DG and TS armies in particular you absolutely still use the index for the rules. The Dataslates and point costs have been updated in the Codex. 

Point 3: repeat point 1.

Are you really trying to argue that you would not use the updated rules in the Codex? Do you expect C: Death Guard or C: Thousand Sons to have different rules for Plague Marines or Rubrics? That would create a situation in which we have two completely different sets of rules/points for the exact same units in 2 different sources... (the very same argument you're making between index dataslates/costs and codex dataslates/costs) that is illogical. 

So yes.. you are going to use the updates rules and point costs in the Codex. Also, you're going to continue to use the rule in the Index allowing Rubrics to have the battlefield role changed to troops. The thing causing so much confusion is the fact that GW decided to included a dataslate for each of the cult units with the troops role and when that wasn't provided in the Codex people jumped to conclusions without any rationality. 

[Souljet]

Just have to agree to disagree on this one I fear.

I'm only looking at it from the matched play point of view. The csm codex specifically states any unit in the codex cannot have the TS keyword. That's pretty clear to me. Additionally, I don't think a tournament would allow the new points and datasheets for us but I could be wrong.

I only play friendly games so I'm not hugely fussed. However I still use the Index with the expanded psychic powers from the codex just for simplicity and clarity.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Just have to agree to disagree on this one I fear.

I'm only looking at it from the matched play point of view. The csm codex specifically states any unit in the codex cannot have the TS keyword. That's pretty clear to me. Additionally, I don't think a tournament would allow the new points and datasheets for us but I could be wrong.

I only play friendly games so I'm not hugely fussed. However I still use the Index with the expanded psychic powers from the codex just for simplicity and clarity.

 

But you would never be considered under the codex because TS are no longer part of C:CSM.

 

There is no agreeing to disagree needed here. You're either playing with the appropriate dataslate or you're not. Thousand Sons army rules are ONLY found in the index, as I've already stated because there is no Thousand Sons codex yet. That has nothing to do with dataslates for units though... 

 

Black Legion and regular warbands can still take Cult units as elites... that's why those units are in C:CSM, lets not get that confused... WEs and EC are the exception, for now...

[Souljet]

Look, I disagree with you. It's no big deal though, it's the internet and people disagree all the time.

For your reference though here's the actual paragraph specifically referring to TS players in the csm codex. I could be wrong, but in my opinion (note, I use opinion, not state as fact) I think this overrides the new datasheet general rule.

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w13/j_man_11/IMG_0864_zpswssigrp3.jpg

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

All that is saying is that you cannot create a Thousand Sons or Death Guard army list with C:CSM... Keywords and rules/point values are too completely different topics. Not to mention.. it in no way invalidates this particular page of the index.

Furthermore:
 

Aothaine, on 11 Aug 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:http://bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_images/carbon_red/snapback.png

 

https://www.warhamme...omepage-post-2/

 

 

There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?

While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.

 

Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).

 

They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.

 

 

[Souljet]

Again, I completely disagree. But if that's how you interpret it then more power to you. I'm in no position to convince you otherwise, and vice-versa.

[JamesI]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/22/the-other-angels-of-death-and-codex-space-marines/

 

 

 

Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves army lists in Index: Imperium 1 all let you use units from the Space Marines section of that book. If you own the new codex, you should feel free to use those same units’ Datasheets from that book instead, until your own codex comes out.

 

Based on this page (which is a few weeks newer from where my quote above is from), it looks like GW has at least given loyalists permission to use the new datasheets/costs were appropriate.  No reason to think that logic wouldn't apply to us.  I'm changing my tune from above.  

 

Though I wish they would put this stuff into a FAQ, rather than community posts we need to search through to find rules nuggets.

[Paladin777]

I absolutely agree. Rules should be in rules posting, not a social media type post...

[Paladin777]

For a different line of thought, the DG codex is going to have 7 special characters... I wonder who else we might get if we get the same treatment. Hathor Maat or Madox maybe?