IA13: Dedicated Transport Dreadclaws, and More!

[Nehekhare]

yeah but to be fair the 4HP were pretty random in the first place. without kheres, cyclone, good drop pods or mortis option it's just overpriced crap anyway.

 

A Land Raider Drop Pod and a Dakka Flyer is basically all CSM take away from it.

 

Renegades bring cheap troops and tanks, even cheaper spawn or zombies, but have to be warlord/primary detachment and benefit more from Daemons than CSM.

 

it's the whole circle once again:

1) YAY for CSM upgrade & allies

2) ok just overpriced options, but YAY for CSM allies

3) allies work better without CSM, so YAY for fluff I guess

4) counts as loyalist.

[Forté]

Wow...this thread changed quickly.

 

End of the day, this whole discussion has been based on the black and white text supplied by a few members. Has anyone actually tried these "inferior to the Imperial so I'm going to moan about how much GW hates Chaos" units on the table yet? And I'm not suggesting people buy them to use but testing by using proxies in a few games.

 

Best way to see how they really work.

[Iron_Within]

Having read only some of the list, I'm staying positive. I am rejecting the internet narrative that if it's not Eldar level it's pants, which I think this is starting to go. 

 

Yeah, the Proteus has an odd rule, but against low Ld armies it's difficult to kill, but yes it's the worst choice.

 

The Land Raider Achilles I really like the look of and will work well in a ordinance heavy army IMO, same for the Typhon.

 

Which brings me to my next point; Renegades and Heretics; just because they work 'better' with Daemons doesn't mean they should be written off. Frankly the reason the work better is because Daemons is a top tier codex along with Tau and Eldar and our codex is closer in power level to the newer releases. Simply put a WAAC player will do better with Daemons. CSM with R&H do something rather well - shooting. The sheer amount of firepower from barrage weapons from the R&H is fantastic, Mutant Rabble are better meat shields and distractions than Cultists (who said we need to take Renegade units?). Rhino MSU Marine units make good cheap objective grabbers and work well for Maelstrom of War (in my experience). We have a combination of rush units in the CSM that can threaten very quickly which could work well with R&H. Yes Daemons might do it a bit better but these I think are very hard lists for local gaming, and more for full-on competitive Tourny play, which I don't think most people do. I think it's more that people just like to win and have the advantage at all times.

 

Lastly I fail to see how a R&H must be the primary, please explain, I see the master of renegades rule, but that's not a great loss.

 

The positive things I've heard about Defilers tempts me to dust mine off.

[K0rtmer]

Oh, apologies, I didn't mean it. And thanks for the quick replies.

I have the book for like 4 hours now. (I've looked up the Contemptor straight away because I love the models and am considering to buy one, or two. My friend used to run one at 4 hull points, at least that's what I remembered.) I'm still as excited about it as I used to be for many weeks now and I still think everything is awesome. I don't care about crunch being sub-optimal or inferior. I care about the many ways I can get excited about Chaos again.

[the jeske]

 

The sheer amount of firepower from barrage weapons from the R&H is fantastic, Mutant Rabble are better meat shields and distractions than Cultists (who said we need to take Renegade units?).

But you could play SW with IG ally for that and get the same units ,cheaper pods ,same LR options ,orders on the IG, same wyverns and artilery  etc

And as cool as spawns are TWC with hit and run are nice too.

 

End of the day, this whole discussion has been based on the black and white text supplied by a few members. Has anyone actually tried these "inferior to the Imperial so I'm going to moan about how much GW hates Chaos" units on the table yet?

 

People have been testing it on vasal a lot, at least this week. And considering some get the books 2-3 weeks sooner, I would say it is possible for people to have tested it.

 

 

CSM with R&H do something rather well - shooting

 

 

But demons help with shoting a lot too. All those re-rolls from divination[csm can have 1 source of it] help shoting a lot. Even those bad bs2 unit[bad in shoting, not bad bad] start to do ok in the shoting phase.

[Forté]

 

End of the day, this whole discussion has been based on the black and white text supplied by a few members. Has anyone actually tried these "inferior to the Imperial so I'm going to moan about how much GW hates Chaos" units on the table yet?

 

People have been testing it on vasal a lot, at least this week. And considering some get the books 2-3 weeks sooner, I would say it is possible for people to have tested it.

This I don't doubt at all. But have those who have tested these units out commented here? Be interesting to see their feedback.

[the jeske]

Well the wyvern batteries work realy well,  specialy for demons. The contemptors, LR , cost too much to work , they should be 50/60 pts cheaper in case of LR and 30-40 in case of contemptors. The no demon engine rule kills a ton of ways one may want to play vehicles [and excludes the few viable one chaos has].

 

Gigant spawn is nice , but hulk does the same and is shoty. Possible use in casual lists[not sure about it though].

 

demons turn up their pseudo IG ally up to 11. re-rolls , ignore cover and forwarning on a big blob unit of objective hugging has nice resiliance. Even stupid powers like malediction [which didn't realy work for anything bar big horror units no body took], suddenly get scary when they go off and 2-3 wyverns bomb the unit.

 

 

All in all it brings cheap culists , ok prices special weapons on renegades[ I know people will say they are meh. And they are when taken as base of an army, as ally they are alright], troop spawn and artilery . We had all of it before, but it was either non battle brother or cost more or[and offten and] had less special rules.

 

The pods are ok and I know chaos players love to get a different transport after 20+ years of waiting, but they realy do cost too much. The flyer part is all nice and fun, but they are no scyths or valks , just being a transport works only when your cheap[like a rhino] , anything above that you have to be shoty too to be useful.

They could be better if we could combat squad [probably terminators] and/or had  utility units like sternguard.

[totgeboren]

Wow...this thread changed quickly.

 

End of the day, this whole discussion has been based on the black and white text supplied by a few members. Has anyone actually tried these "inferior to the Imperial so I'm going to moan about how much GW hates Chaos" units on the table yet? And I'm not suggesting people buy them to use but testing by using proxies in a few games.

 

Best way to see how they really work.

 

I have tried the Contemptor, Decimator, Hell Blade and Proteus using the old rules many times, and they were all found to be underpowered and/or too expensive in (my own vs friends) playtests. The new rules for the Hell Blade made it ok. It is still incredibly fragile, but the new rules all in all makes it pretty fun to use, especially if your opponent brings flyers of his own.

 

The Contemptor lost a HP (though I always played is as having 3 HP anyway), but though it is cool, it is not worth more than a Land Raider, which is what is tends to cost with just a few basic upgrades like a weapon swap or God-alignment.

 

The Decimator is in the same boat. Land Raider cost for an Ironclad is just odd, and the new rules makes you unable to combine the Conversion Beamer (which you should never take in the first place) with another ranged weapon, so a nerf of a weak unit and an even weaker upgrade.

 

I think I have cried enough over the Proteus, but in short it was nerfed to the ground.

 

However, there are some positive things. The new Rapiers look amazing. 3 conversion beamers+ for about the same cost as 3 Oblits look awesome, and the other weapon upgrades all look good for the cost. All the flyers look interesting, especially the Fire Raptor which will make short work of just about any FMC. The Hell Talon looks a bit expensive considering how hard it is to use, but fairly all-round as it can drop bombs on infantry while shooting tanks with its anti-tank guns.

Even if the Dreadclaws look bad, I will definitely give them a proxy-try and see if they open up new tactics or if they are just suicide buckets. They could in theory be really useful.

The big Dreadclaw seems to have a hard time competitng with a basic Land Raider, but assault launchers are always nice.

The Sicarian with heavy bothers and rending ammo is expensive, but looks reasonable for what you get (dakkadakka!).

The Plague Hulk looks plain good. Tough, durable and pretty killy, though slow.

 

As allies, the Renegades and Heretics look great. I really want a Bombard! Or cheap as chips Griffons! they have some duds though, their Pychers are more or less unusable, armoured sentinels are horribly expensive and the Brutes/Orgyn have a cost that made me reread the entry a few times to see what missed. Turns out I didn't miss anything, they are just 50% more expensive than loyalists for no reason I can discern (since ogryn always have a Priest who gives them buffs, meaning they are comparable in cc, while having big guns and costing less).

 

The Giant Spawn and Spined Beast seem to suffer from some sort of mixup when it comes to who can use them, but I assume this will be Erratad. Otherwise the Giant Spawn will be the only non-Daemon in the entire Daemon list.

 

So there are some good things, but there are many bad things too. It's just frustrating when GW/FW nerfs bad stuff (like Killa Kans for orks), since you as a player of their games end up in a worse position than you were in before the release. It's easier to handle if your army is pretty powerful (I wound't mind my Daemons getting a slight nerf when it comes to psychics for example), but CSM are already at the bottom of the food chain, so it's harder to accept.

[Nehekhare]

Wow...this thread changed quickly.

 

Has anyone actually tried these "inferior to the Imperial so I'm going to moan about how much GW hates Chaos" units on the table yet?

 

Hey, we're just saying how it is. don't really need empirical data to compare mostly identical army list entries.

 

Had a small 1000pts game yesterday with tzeentch vox command, plas/AC milita infantry platoon (3 min squads), 50 khornate rabble + drug enforcer, 3x3 spawn, 2x wyvern, bombard, medusa against CSM/CD (Lord+CSM in rhino, NM+BM, cultists, las pred, horrors, Bloodthister). spawn and wyverns did all the work, rest was being too lazy to move all that infantry, random dice rolling and shooting flashlights against FMCs for the other 3 turns.  

 

 

WAAC

 

I don't like that phrase since it's derogatory and promotes stereotypes from a deceptive moral high ground. Let's instead say: ANY player will win more easily that way.

 

I fail to see how a R&H must be the primary, please explain, I see the master of renegades rule, but that's not a great loss.

 

the only unique things Renegades bring to the table are cheap spawn, zombies, pistol/CCW infantry and S8 Bombards - most of these depend on the arch-demagogue being your warlord. Everything else is Imperial guard, but worse. It's not a MUST, though - you can also just take a command squad + vox, 3 Plas/AC infantry squads and some bombards (or wyverns, but then you can just as well ally to AM) as allies (>500pts!).

 

I like your heretic army btw.

 

The positive things I've heard about Defilers tempts me to dust mine off.

 

Soul grinders did that for me. Plague hulks as CSM HS is definately a plus (offset by giant spawn as CD only HS, sadly)

[Nehekhare]

 

The new Rapiers look amazing. 3 conversion beamers+ for about the same cost as 3 Oblits look awesome, and the other weapon upgrades all look good for the cost.

 

too bad it's only 1 CSM Rapier per HS slot. Let's hope for the Giant Spawn, but FW doesn't FAQ well...

[the jeske]

Man if you could take them in batteries. Obligatory Fortress of redemtion. 3 rapiers , 3 squads of csm or pms in claws Sorc as warlord +ally renegades with 2 wyverns 1 bombarda 1mob of mutas 1 mob of militia.

 

 

Or one claw with csm 2 units of cultists and a raptor. Would be so much fun to play with.

[totgeboren]

Man if you could take them in batteries. Obligatory Fortress of redemtion. 3 rapiers , 3 squads of csm or pms in claws Sorc as warlord +ally renegades with 2 wyverns 1 bombarda 1mob of mutas 1 mob of militia.

Or one claw with csm 2 units of cultists and a raptor. Would be so much fun to play with.

The new Rapiers look amazing. 3 conversion beamers+ for about the same cost as 3 Oblits look awesome, and the other weapon upgrades all look good for the cost.

too bad it's only 1 CSM Rapier per HS slot. Let's hope for the Giant Spawn, but FW doesn't FAQ well...

Be prepared to be pleased, since it says under options "up to two additional carriers, each accompanied by 2 Chaos Spaces Marines". Each extra cost the same as the first one.

[Forté]

Nice to hear some actually feedback from those who have tried things out :tu:

[Nehekhare]

Be prepared to be pleased, since it says under options "up to two additional carriers, each accompanied by 2 Chaos Spaces Marines". Each extra cost the same as the first one.

[Disciple of Fulgrim]

Sorry to be so negative about our new LR Proteus as well, but enough's been posted about it for me know it's been fatally nerfed.  The old version was one of the few useable FW Chaos vehicles, and also happened to suit my playstyle perfectly - guess I'll just have to park mine up on the shelf, next to my Heldrake.  RIP, pink blitzkrieg. 

 

That said, I am looking forward to trying out many of our new CSM toys - the Sonic Dread, Sicaran and Fire Raptor all sound like they should be solid options (and look great,) and Blight Drones, Rapiers, the Hell Talon and maybe even our new Claws might also be worth a look.  And on top of all that, we got an expanded Traitor Guard back.  So all in all, I'd say FW has done us Chaos players a solid by putting this book out. 

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

too bad it's only 1 CSM Rapier per HS slot.

Be prepared to be pleased, since it says under options "up to two additional carriers, each accompanied by 2 Chaos Spaces Marines". Each extra cost the same as the first one.

Cool. I'll be looking to add a few Rapier to my IWs. Just always liked the Rapier model from Forge World & it been made every better for converting it into Chaos era.

I'll need to try buy Armour 13 soon, also just to try out the Relic Predator? in a few games. Just never really use Forge World only rules, but armour 13 given me the shove to add bit more to my army & try them out in games.

[Lord Asvaldir]

 

 Everything else is Imperial guard, but worse.

 

 

Doesn't that have a pretty good use in itself though? We can now take something like say, Leman Ruses with a battle brothers ally instead of come the apocalypse ally.  

[minionboy]

 

 

The new Rapiers look amazing. 3 conversion beamers+ for about the same cost as 3 Oblits look awesome, and the other weapon upgrades all look good for the cost.

too bad it's only 1 CSM Rapier per HS slot. Let's hope for the Giant Spawn, but FW doesn't FAQ well...

As Heavy Support, even if CSM does get them again, it won't be worth it. At least the spined beast is an Elites choice.

[Vesper]

Reading it and loving it.

I greatly enjoy the fluff, with nods to old stuff like Sons of Malice or events of the 13th Black Crusade global campaign.

[Nehekhare]

Giant Spawn

As Heavy Support, even if CSM does get them again, it won't be worth it. At least the spined beast is an Elites choice.

The big hope is that they just confused the slot/army stamps of those two entries, because they are on the same page and were exactly the other way around in IA: Apocalypse 2013 (+would make so much more sense that way: beast with instability = daemons only, spawn = CSM/both). Great opportunity to field those fantasy monsters, too! If they FAQ it, I might buy a mutalith vortex beast, a skaven hellpit abomination or a maggoth (YOU READ THAT FW?)

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

Has anyone thought about using a squadron of arvus lighters, (1-3 as an FA choice, 20pts more than a rhino each, operate independent of each other on the battlefield) to transport your csm or termie into battle?

 

It's something I'm working towards ( Have two lighters I'm in the process of painting up )

 

Or even using renegade valks as transports for your marines?

[Lord Asvaldir]

I'm not sure I'd prefer a flying transport for MSU marine squads over rhinos, namely because once they get out of the flier they are not getting back in it, and the arvus in particular can't do anything except for transporting troops. With the case of rhinos, I find them rather useful for LoS blocking and marine protection even if they will die. Also objective grabbing. 

 

However I can defiantly see the potential of having 1-2 fliers going around available to pick up squads for a turn, getting them potentially out of danger or to a far off objective. 

 

I'm not sure what the stats of the arvus is, but my guess is it's fairly weak-not something I'd want terminators in. The idea is certainly worth testing for small marine squads. 

[Iron_Within]

I am certainly liking the idea of Rapiers with Hades Autocannons behind an ADL or in a Fortress or Bastion (they can go into a Bastion I think). More cost effective and accurate than the Forgefiend and 12 S8 AP:4 shots for 10 points less than said Forgefiend. 

 

(ouch: I've never noticed the change in rules that have given buildings HP's with a Bastion 4 HPs, ow....)

[Uprising]

Hows the fluff?

[Emperors Immortals]

Yes, fluff. Is there good stuff for creation of daemon engines? Is it inline with the FFG RPG mechanics?

 

Any black legion? And I hear Arkos is in there, is that true? Imma supahappy camper if so!!!