[HH1.0] 30k Ultramarines tactics

[Charlo]

Id say even after just one flat out move if the Raider gets blown up, Guilliman will be in a good position to tank a lot of shooting, he's pretty knarly with he ignoring the first fail per phase. Then between a Move, Run and Fleet Charge he should be in combat unless your opponent fully runs from him...

 

And that is when the Jetbikes catch them :P

 

But yeah, it lacks redundancy where it might be needed...

[Ishagu]

Yeah, if you have first turn deploy forward. Guilliman protects you from being seized upon. Flat out forward and you'll be inches away from the enemy. Edited March 31, 2016 by Ishagu

[GreyCrow]

Thanks for the feedbacks guys ! :) It's cool that you comment, because I have very low 30k tabletop experience, but quite a bit of 40k experience, and I wanted to get your insight on what would work.

 

In true Ultramarines fashion, I did some research about Roman Tactics (because Space Marines are loosely based on Romans), and obviously it took me to research several other treatise of warfare :p

In a nutshell, Roman Tactics involve a very solid battle line, supported by decisive action from cavalry elements. The Romans would use their cavalry as a strategic reserve, unleashing in when they perceived a weakness in an enemy line. They would unleash the cavalry with devastating force and overwhelming numbers to secure a local advantage for the rest of their battle line.

For the Romans, numbers was important rather than extreme force multiplication. What that meant was that it was better to throw 500 horsemen somewhere than 150 and use 10 Catapults as fire support. Similarily, it was better to use 50 Catapults and no cavalry when attrition was priviledge, notably in siege areas :p

 

I think this general philosophy translates well on tabletop tactics within the Space Marines. Points for points our line units are pretty tanky compared to what's available to other lists, but they barely do any damage (even Fury of the Legion is nice, but it'll only kill 9 Marines on average at the peak effiency of 80 shots, which doesn't happen very often). Conversely, we have "cavalry" (basically anything that isn't line) that has decent utility and damage, but works best in numbers. 1 Vindicator is useful, 3 of them is very dangerous. It's simpler and more effective to throw 2 vindicators on target over 1 Vindicator and 2 Landspeeders, for example.

 

In regards to Ultramarines in 30k specifically, I think that coherency in the cavalry is even more hinted at by Guilliman's special rule "Preternatural Strategy", where he applies the USR to units of the similar entry.

So, my idea with that list what to see with you guys if using almost a literal and uniform "cavalry" in the form of Jetbikes would feel interesting/powerful on paper and I thank you for your feedback :)

 

After analysing the Crusade Army List, and the general Space Marine design philosophy, I've furthered the Roman codification of Line and Cavalry into 3 types of units :

- Line units : Basically all the Troops, with the main classification factor being : low damage projection, low damage output compared to other units, best resilience points for points in the crusade. Support Squads are barely in this category because some builds are pretty damaging, but what classified them as Line units are the fact that they have low damage project in terms of range,or when they have range it's relatively low damage points for points.

 

- Line "Plus" units : In this category, I include all the units that work along the lines and are upgraded versions of Line units. They are a bit of a hybrid between Line and Cavalry due to having just a tad more damage output, but the same issues in damage projection. This category includes Elite Terminators (including Legion specific, except the Fulmentarus and Tyrant Siege), Veterans, Destroyer, Seekers, Dreadnoughts and Contemptors including Mortis variants (both have resilience akin to a Tactical squad points for points, but the damage output is quite low. If you compare to other Dreadnought variants like the Deredeo or Leviathan, which pack a lot more punch for the points along with good damage projection and thus fit into the cavalry). The goal of these units is to reinforce the strength or the damage output of the line while still adding some heft, in search for a local advantage. Example : you can't really use the Terminators as hunter killers because they lack speed, deployment options, and range. This category also includes all transports, because most of them bring utility to the line rather than killing power. HQs and support characters like Consuls or Legion specific are also Line Plus.

 

Even the Primarchs are Line Plus (we could say Line Plus Plus !) units in my framework, because they have horrible damage projection (being mainly melee guys).

 

- Cavalry units : The Cavalry category includes everything else, which usually is indicated by 2 main characteristics : a damage output capable of decisive action compared to the same number of line models, and a very effective damage projection (ease to inflict their full damage output, either through range, speed or special rules). My example with the Jetbikes is typically a full jetbike "Cavalry", when comparing 30 Jetbikes to 30 Tacticals in terms of optimal damage output (highest number of attacks, so shooting + charging)

* 30 Jetbikes : 13.3 dead MEQ with Heavy Bolters, 36.6 total dead when you include the charge

* 30 Tacticals : 3.33 dead MEQ with Bolt Pistols, 8.6 total dead when you include the charge

 

Unsurprisingly, the Jetbikes have 4.3x the output of a Tactical marine which isn't surprising, for 2.6x the cost. Which means, a net points for points damage output increase of 1.65x that of the Tactical Marines, with the added damage projection of their range and mobility, meaning you can time that decisive action. And, in all fairness, being able to kill almost 4 min tactical squads in a single turn is a pretty darn decisive action :D

 

But that Cavalry framework can work with any other type of cavalry units I expect, and the good bit with Ultramarines is that you can make it work regardless of the type of cavalry because our Legion Tactics trigger when units work together regardless of the type of unit, while other Legion boost specific units individually. I guess we might call the Ultramarines a spammy army, but it's a damn effective spam and it gives the theme of each player's army because Ultramarines are pretty vanilla in terms of actual martial theme compared to the Salamanders, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists or Alpha Legion for instance, due to not pushing a specific playstyle.

 

So, I'm really thankful that you think this idea has promise ! :D 

 

_____

 

@Charlo : Great idea for the chainfists ! Now I picture a Terminator Command Squad with the B@C Praetor all armed with Chainfists :D Them damn Imperial Knights won't have nothing on me !

 

@Flint : Indeed, blowing up heavy armour is going to be a struggle with that list. The idea instead will be to aim to avoid/tank the shots from heavy armour, while waiting for the infantry in transport to hop out or glance their Rhinos to death with the Jetbikes (and Tank Hunter from Guilliman).

The idea of the cavalry in the Roman framework isn't really to hunt for the heavy hitters that are the Pride of the enemy, but to help the Line overwhelm the enemy line and force the enemy heavy hitters to target the cavalry rather than the Line.

 

In this framework, the Line (including the Primarch) are mainly there for board control rather than for offense, which is the job of a nasty cavalry. If an enemy unit wants to get close to the Terminators or the Suzerains, then they'll pounce :D

[Hesh Kadesh]

The great thing is you don't even have to give them ALL swords. Just how many you want.

That is questionable, IIRC.

[Slips]

Remember though, that Majority Toughness is a thing so Gman wont have the benefit of his T6.

[Flint13]

Id say even after just one flat out move if the Raider gets blown up, Guilliman will be in a good position to tank a lot of shooting, he's pretty knarly with he ignoring the first fail per phase. Then between a Move, Run and Fleet Charge he should be in combat unless your opponent fully runs from him...

 

And that is when the Jetbikes catch them :P

 

But yeah, it lacks redundancy where it might be needed...

He *re-rolls* the first failed invuln per phase, he doesn't ignore it.

 

He's resilient, sure, but wounds can be knocked off decently easily when he doesn't get the benefit of T6.

 

Several things to keep in mind here too. It's hard to cause wounds on this unit, but the cost for failing one is high, which means it pays for your opponent to put shots into them. A secondary problem is positioning. We're pretty much agreed that land raider is getting trashed turn one without a lot of difficulty. Let's assume too that you've managed to get this great flat out move on your first turn putting you decently close to the enemy.

 

When that raider blows up, you have to put down all the models it was transporting within its footprint. That is going to be a squeeze with a primarch and a bunch of 32mm bases. Even if you manage it without loosing any models bc you can't place them, they are going to be crammed into an easily templateable cluster.

 

A single demolisher cannon is going to cause you huge problems. It will hit pretty much every model and ignore any FnP you have. Your choices are to either try to tank all those wounds on Gulliman and lose several to save the unit or let the unit be wiped out around him. Quad guns are even more common. A unit grouped that closely would drown in wounds from all of those blast templates. And again, you may not fail many saves, but the cost of failing a single one is crazy high. You either lose an expensive Suzerain or take a wound on Gulliman. It's a problem that gets magnified in your list bc the jetbikes are in the exact same boat. You may not fail a lot of 2+ saves, but it's worth it to your opponent to toss shots into them bc you lose a lot for every armor save you fail.

 

After all of that, your unit may be close to the enemy, sure, but that's not a guarantee they'll get into combat. Your opponent isn't forced into a static defense. He has no reason to stay where he is if Gulliman has a chance of reaching him. If your opponent can keep Gullimans unit from reaching combat, either with speed bumps or positioning, he has neutralized it almost as effectively as having destroyed it.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Flint13

[GreyCrow]

 

After all of that, your unit may be close to the enemy, sure, but that's not a guarantee they'll get into combat. Your opponent isn't forced into a static defense. He has no reason to stay where he is if Gulliman has a chance of reaching him. If your opponent can keep Gullimans unit from reaching combat, either with speed bumps or positioning, he has neutralized it almost as effectively as having destroyed it.

 

 

Which is exactly why I don't think using Primarch squads as a hunter killer unit to carry the rest of the army is quite viable, but that's my own appreciation. Deathstar units such as these are undoubtedly efficient killing machines, but they require on so much to make them work :

- Having a Spartan geared to the teeth (Dozer Blades, Auxiliary Drive, Armoured Ceramite)

- Having an escort with extreme tanking capabilities

- Having the Primarch

 

Usually, these units come at 1250-1500 points depending on what the escort unit is, but even then, the reach of these units is actually quite low. Yes, the Spartan can reach anywhere, but it's only one single place over the entire battle and against a smartly positionied enemy, they will have trouble mowing the line up and up again.

 

For 1500 points of "Cavalry", you can get so many more units that can apply their firepower much more easily right when they entire the board. Arguably, if I had 1500 points to spend in heavy hitters, I'd invest them in 9 Vindicators just for the 30" effective range out of reserves (which would give the ability to position them properly to shoot and to protect themselves once the battlefield conditions are known).

 

I'm not saying Primarch retinues deathstar are bad, definitely not. I'd rather use them to bolster a specific part of the line because that's what their unit profile synergize with the most naturally with, and look at other things for damage-carrying units. :)

[Charlo]

Yeah I like the idea of having 1500 points of jetbikes as cavalry, as opposed to a Primarch Deathstar.

 

Luckily I'll be running Mortarion anyway... In a mostly gunline list. His mobility means I can intercept (whatever is left...) of what comes into my lines :D

 

 

Rule of cool I'd have big G surveying the battlefield with a Cata Terminator command squad. Plonk them in your proposed line of Tacs and suddenly... Fearless!

 

Or you go FULL Roman.

 

Make those Tacs Breachers with Swords and throw in a Heraldor too.

 

WS5, Fearless Power Weapon Breachers HOLDING THE LINE.

[Ishagu]

 

Id say even after just one flat out move if the Raider gets blown up, Guilliman will be in a good position to tank a lot of shooting, he's pretty knarly with he ignoring the first fail per phase. Then between a Move, Run and Fleet Charge he should be in combat unless your opponent fully runs from him...

 

And that is when the Jetbikes catch them :P

 

But yeah, it lacks redundancy where it might be needed...

He *re-rolls* the first failed invuln per phase, he doesn't ignore it.

 

He's resilient, sure, but wounds can be knocked off decently easily when he doesn't get the benefit of T6.

 

Several things to keep in mind here too. It's hard to cause wounds on this unit, but the cost for failing one is high, which means it pays for your opponent to put shots into them. A secondary problem is positioning. We're pretty much agreed that land raider is getting trashed turn one without a lot of difficulty. Let's assume too that you've managed to get this great flat out move on your first turn putting you decently close to the enemy.

 

When that raider blows up, you have to put down all the models it was transporting within its footprint. That is going to be a squeeze with a primarch and a bunch of 32mm bases. Even if you manage it without loosing any models bc you can't place them, they are going to be crammed into an easily templateable cluster.

 

A single demolisher cannon is going to cause you huge problems. It will hit pretty much every model and ignore any FnP you have. Your choices are to either try to tank all those wounds on Gulliman and lose several to save the unit or let the unit be wiped out around him. Quad guns are even more common. A unit grouped that closely would drown in wounds from all of those blast templates. And again, you may not fail many saves, but the cost of failing a single one is crazy high. You either lose an expensive Suzerain or take a wound on Gulliman. It's a problem that gets magnified in your list bc the jetbikes are in the exact same boat. You may not fail a lot of 2+ saves, but it's worth it to your opponent to toss shots into them bc you lose a lot for every armor save you fail.

 

After all of that, your unit may be close to the enemy, sure, but that's not a guarantee they'll get into combat. Your opponent isn't forced into a static defense. He has no reason to stay where he is if Gulliman has a chance of reaching him. If your opponent can keep Gullimans unit from reaching combat, either with speed bumps or positioning, he has neutralized it almost as effectively as having destroyed it.

 

But we can't assume all that happens in a Vacuum. It's up to the player to advance in such a way as to be in a good position to assault the enemy whilst keeping some of the hard hitting units out of range.

But it's true that if you allow your opponent's army to focus fire on the Primarch and his unit that they'll be in trouble. It's why I completely advocate that you min/max the rest of the units for maximum damage so you can clear those threats out.

 

Most Primarchs carry with them the tax of transportations (Land Raider is not the best use of 250+ points, let's be honest) so you need to be clever about your other options, unless you're playing at a much higher point level that is.

 

Here's an example of a 2k list including Guilliman that has some punch to it from the other units, and it's not even particularly optimised:

 

HQ:

-Chaplain, Plasma Pistol

 

Troops:

-10 Tacs, Sgt with Power Fist, Rhino

-10 Tacs, Sgt with Power Fist, Rhino

-5 Invectarus Suzerains, Landraider with Multi Melta

 

Elites:

-Quad Launcher support battery, Shatter Shells

-Quad Launcher support battery, Shatter Shells

 

Heavy Support:

-Vindicator with Laser Destoryer Array, Combi-Bolter

-Vindicator with Laser Destoryer Array, Combi-Bolter

-Deredeo Dreadnought, Anvillus Autocannon, Ailos Missiles

 

Lord of War:

-Roboute Guilliman

 

 

There is a lot of quality firepower here, especially with Tank Hunting Ordinance that will guarantee penetration against enemy tanks.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Ishagu

[caladancid]

 

 

Suzerains aren't much more expensive in truth...

 

They are also probably the most iconic Ultra unit considering the 40k Honour Guard are basically these guys with less impressive cc weapons

 

This is why I just use Suzerains. The breachers have the benefit of not needing Guilliman to be troops, and being less expensive to purchase (money), but the points cost for a unit of ten is so close to a unit of Suzerain that might as well take the better guys.

 

Just as an aside, I converted a unit of ten with the power swords from the blood angels death company boxes. Those swords are all right handed.

 

You got any pictures? I have 10 breachers on my desk and I am toying with giving them swords... 

 

 

Sent you a PM with pics.

 

I agree also that putting all your eggs in one basket, aka Smurfmobile of doom, can reduce your ability to spread the field. I like fast moving units to harass the other army  as a way to prevent being focus fired.

[GreyCrow]

Yeah I like the idea of having 1500 points of jetbikes as cavalry, as opposed to a Primarch Deathstar.

 

Luckily I'll be running Mortarion anyway... In a mostly gunline list. His mobility means I can intercept (whatever is left...) of what comes into my lines

 

 

Rule of cool I'd have big G surveying the battlefield with a Cata Terminator command squad. Plonk them in your proposed line of Tacs and suddenly... Fearless!

 

Or you go FULL Roman.

 

Make those Tacs Breachers with Swords and throw in a Heraldor too.

 

WS5, Fearless Power Weapon Breachers HOLDING THE LINE.

 

I haven't studied the Death Guard specifically, but I can see how your idea works :) With the caveat that the "cavalry" is sustained fire from heavy weapons against anyone foolish enough to cross the big guns line of sight :p

I just imagine 30 Heavy Support Marines throwing Krak Missiles or Plasma Cannons... Ouch. Then the enemy meets the meatgrinder in the form of a bajillion Tacticals haha !

 

To be honest, I'm not sure I will go for the Jetbike cavalry even if I find the idea super cool ! £700 of models to have 30 of them is quite the deterrent unfortunately :p

But, picturing the table top, it's going to look absolutely kick ass !

 

Right now, the idea I'm working on is pretty similar, but using tanks instead of Jetbikes as cavalry. Because I play qutie the speedy Raven Guard army in 40k, and I have a few tanks that are just collecting dust which I would love to convert and use ! :p I'll post up a tentative list for review and C&C at some piont ;)

[Charlo]

Well... Not 30 Heavy support marines with Krak Missiles and Plasma Cannons but...

 

8 Missiles, 8 Volkite Culverins, 8 Shredding Heavy Flamers, 2 Medusas, 2 Phosphex Quad Mortars and then either Some Darkfire lance Castellax or a Whirlwind Scorpius and more heavy weapons for backup.

 

Oh Plus a Sicaran Venator to chop the balls off any super heavy that wants to ruin my dudes day!

 

You should totally do the Jetbike Cav... Or... Outriders?

 

They can get an arguably better variety of weapons plus inbuilt power weapons etc... Support them with Attack bikes and you're golden.

[GreyCrow]

Yeah, the Outriders are pretty cool too ! I think I'm going to go settle for the Predators and Vindicators and perhaps Sicarans for the moment most likely. Model cost is pretty much an issue, but I could think about crowdfunding the army ? haha :D

[Ishagu]

The Sicaran tank is one of the Ultramarine's signature units, it's a no brainer :-)

[Charlo]

Ravenguard bikers with 30k upgrade bits.

 

Cheap and awesome looking ;)

[Slips]

Ravenguard bikers with 30k upgrade bits.

 

Cheap and awesome looking

Unless you want to run anything that isn't Twin-Linked Bolters on Bikes.

 

Then you have to source Plasma/Melta/Flamer weapons that fit in those slots and get to converting.

 

 

Vs

 

Especially since they all have to have the same gun loadout.

 

2 Plasma Guns per bike? Dont know of many peeps who have that may lying around...

As a unit though, they can pack a punch and they have scout which helps.

[Charlo]

Bits sellers usually have them cheap enough. No idea if the cost of bits then puts them over the outriders cost. No denying they're nice models though.

[Flint13]

 

But we can't assume all that happens in a Vacuum. It's up to the player to advance in such a way as to be in a good position to assault the enemy whilst keeping some of the hard hitting units out of range.

But it's true that if you allow your opponent's army to focus fire on the Primarch and his unit that they'll be in trouble. It's why I completely advocate that you min/max the rest of the units for maximum damage so you can clear those threats out.

 

Most Primarchs carry with them the tax of transportations (Land Raider is not the best use of 250+ points, let's be honest) so you need to be clever about your other options, unless you're playing at a much higher point level that is.

 

Here's an example of a 2k list including Guilliman that has some punch to it from the other units, and it's not even particularly optimised:

 

HQ:

-Chaplain, Plasma Pistol

 

Troops:

-10 Tacs, Sgt with Power Fist, Rhino

-10 Tacs, Sgt with Power Fist, Rhino

-5 Invectarus Suzerains, Landraider with Multi Melta

 

Elites:

-Quad Launcher support battery, Shatter Shells

-Quad Launcher support battery, Shatter Shells

 

Heavy Support:

-Vindicator with Laser Destoryer Array, Combi-Bolter

-Vindicator with Laser Destoryer Array, Combi-Bolter

-Deredeo Dreadnought, Anvillus Autocannon, Ailos Missiles

 

Lord of War:

-Roboute Guilliman

 

 

There is a lot of quality firepower here, especially with Tank Hunting Ordinance that will guarantee penetration against enemy tanks.

 

 

You're right, we can't. We're assuming that we're playing a game with equal points on both sides, correct?

 

So that's 1500pts of Jet bikes and 800-ish points of Primarch/Land Raider/Bodyguard. You aren't "allowing" your opponent to shoot at your Primarch Deathstar, unless your opponent is asleep at the helm, he will get at least a single turn of shooting at that land raider. At the points level game that was entailed with this hypothetical scenario, any balanced force is going to be able to kill a Spartan in a turn of shooting, much less an un-shielded land raider. 

 

The only ranged anti-tank in Greycrow's hypothetical list was land raider lascannons. At ... *rough estimate* 3650pts, destroying a land raider (or a couple even) isn't going to be anything approaching difficult. Then Bobby G is left sitting where he's not going to be effective and will be shot to death.

 

Ok, so if we're comparing lists, here's my standard Solar Aux list at 2k, pulled straight out of battlescribe with zero modifications and not optimized in the slightest.

 

Tactical Command squad - Dracosan w/Demo cannon, flare shield

Tank Commander

 

Veletaris Storm Squad - Dracosan w/Demo cannon, flare shield

Veletaris Storm Squad - Dracosan w/Demo cannon, flare shield

 

Rapier Battery x3 Graviton Cannon

 

Leman Russ Vanquisher - Lascannon

 

Malcador Infernus w/Chem Ammo

Malcador Heavy Tank w/Demo cannon, siege armor, flare shield

Malcador Heavy Tank w/Demo cannon, siege armor, flare shield

 

 

 

That "guaranteed to penetrate" anti-armor firepower you have in the vindicators is going to bounce off the front of anything with a flareshield like a stiff rain, where the anvillus autocannon and quad guns can't even damage anything with AV14 flare shield from the front. Deredeos and quad guns are close to immobile and your choices with the vindicators are to move for a flank shot and lose 2/3s of your firepower or try to fish for sixes through a flareshield.

 

In the meantime, the single mobile threat you have in the unshielded land raider is going to be stuck in difficult terrain until it is either hull pointed to death or gets popped by a demo cannon or the Vanq. Which brings us back to the exact same problem we had before with Bobby G getting stuck and templated to death with his expensive squad. The rhinos are as close to zero threat as they can be since they have no way of breaking a unit out of an armored carrier outside of combat. 

 

This list has the exact same problem, only more so. I don't have to worry about concentrating my firepower since you've given me only a single threatening target that I can neutralize easily in a turn. I don't have to shoot at anything else, b/c none of it is a serious threat for other than glancing hull points and you've given me no reason not to keep my flareshielded front armor towards your vindicators, deredeo and quad batteries. The only things those Vindis, deredeo and quads would be effective against I either outrange with the Vanquisher or have no reason to bring into your line of fire before I'm 100% ready with the Infernus since its crazy mobile. If I stop Gulliman from getting into combat (which will be the goal of any opponent, regardless of list) then you have zero ways to cause effective damage. 

 

Just like you said in the beginning, we can't assume we're working in a vacuum, and there is no reason to assume your opponent is going to be doing anything other than trying to beat you. Flare shields are a very common thing in 30k so if you don't have a method of dealing with them, then you're going to have a ton of hard counters. Same vein, the Heresy isn't all legion lists. There is a huge variety of stuff out there, Mechanicum, Solar Aux, Cults and Militia... plenty of those are going to be a hard counter to what you're trying to force with a 6" movement Primarch deathstar within a pretty basic, untailored list.  

Edited March 31, 2016 by Flint13

[Lord Blackwood]

 

 

Ok, so if we're comparing lists, here's my standard Solar Aux list at 2k, pulled straight out of battlescribe with zero modifications and not optimized in the slightest.

 

Tactical Command squad - Dracosan w/Demo cannon, flare shield

Tank Commander

 

Veletaris Storm Squad - Dracosan w/Demo cannon, flare shield

Veletaris Storm Squad - Dracosan w/Demo cannon, flare shield

 

Rapier Battery x3 Graviton Cannon

 

Leman Russ Vanquisher - Lascannon

 

Malcador Infernus w/Chem Ammo

Malcador Heavy Tank w/Demo cannon, siege armor, flare shield

Malcador Heavy Tank w/Demo cannon, siege armor, flare shield

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-iqTQJxNT63w/VU0zqz827OI/AAAAAAAAEdw/Z58-xk0pNww/plasticneesan4%25255B2%25255D.jpg?imgmax=1200

" I am not impressed by your metal box because it is only one" - Flint 2016

 

Basically  if you roll up  to the game club and see  a chick lookin like this then  you should probably avoid playing her  cause shes going to body you 

 

I think you would prolly fare a bit better against legion Armored Breakthrough lists , but then again stuff like a Typhon would still be a nightmare to yer deathstar unit 

[GreyCrow]

The 30k bikes are so, so damn sexy   

That's what I find cool with the Ultramarines haha ! You can field anything and have some decent performance as long as you understand how to take advantage of the units and the shifting battlefield conditions :D

[Runefyre]

Do any fellow XIII^th legionnaires have experience playing against questoris knight armies? My brother ordered 2 of the renegade box sets as a start to his knightly household.

 

I'm thinking sicaran venators backed up by cerberus? Or perhaps a falchion? Quad mortars with shatter shells look attractive as well.

 

An expensive (but durable) idea would be a bunch of fulmentarii with a deredeo with automantic pevaes (or however the heck you spell that). They could spit out a considerable amount of str8 with sunder/tank hunters.

 

Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome!

[Slips]

A Leviathan actually has a good shot, with a Melta Arm and Drop Pod (and Drill for added insult to injury) at killing a knight in a single round of shooting or Nigh-guaranteed if in CC following a shooting phase.

 

Especially if you get Rear/Side Armour for the Melta Lance.

 

It should be stated, however, that with a Cyclonic Melta Lance and a Drill, a Leviathan in a pod has pretty good odds at being able to take out a Knight Titan though it does take some pieces to fall perfectly into place for this to occur.

• First: Leviathan w/ Cyclonic Melta Lance in a Dreadnought Drop Pod lands behind said target Knight, preferably in melta range if possible. If you have sufficient front arc threats for the Knight, its controlling player should have a hard time deciding on whether or not to let the shield face the Leviathan who, it should be mentioned, isn't forced out of his pod upon landing granting him 3, Shrouded Av12 Ablative Hull Points.
• Second: Whether or not the Ion Shield is pointed your way, shoot 3 S9 Ap1 Melta Shots at BS5 into the butt of said Knight which is Av12. If your dice are willing, you'll get 3 hits. Those shot then need a 3+ to Glance, 4+ to pen. If you're in Melta Range, these are pretty much auto pens.
• Third: At Ap1, you gain +2 to Vehicle Damage Table (Bonus points if you're Alpha Legion running Dynat for a further +1 for a total of +3) which, thanks to the Knight being a Super-Heavy, means that Explodes Results - obtained on a 5+ - deal a further D3 Hullpoints in damage.
• Fourth: That means that, if everything lines up nigh-perfectly, your Leviathan and his Melta Lance can deal 3+3D3 Hull Points in damage to said Knight (or other Super Heavies) for a potential maximum of 12 Hull Points.
• Fifth and possibly finally: If your army has not killed said Knight by this point and the Leviathan is not dead yet, you get to do steps 1-4 all over again BUT! now with the possibility of charging into CC to smack it with 2 S8 HoW hits and 4 S10 Ap2 Armourbane Hits at I5, hitting it before it can hit you with its S:D Weapon (unless a Castigator) at WS5 meaning you're most likely hitting it on 3s.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Slipstreams

[Ishagu]

Vindicator Laser Destroyers, Sicarans with Tank Hunters.

 

We can do a lot of damage.

[Runefyre]

All those are good ideas, it's just  a pity  you can't deep strike with the logos lectora (my  go to RoW).

 

I've got a sicaran and plan to purchase a venator soon, combined with my fulmentarus and Guilliman (and a little luck) I should be able to isolate and kill (or severely damage) one knight, and stun one other knight per turn.

 

Thoughts?

[GreyCrow]

All those are good ideas, it's just  a pity  you can't deep strike with the logos lectora (my  go to RoW).

 

I've got a sicaran and plan to purchase a venator soon, combined with my fulmentarus and Guilliman (and a little luck) I should be able to isolate and kill (or severely damage) one knight, and stun one other knight per turn.

 

Thoughts?

 

Should work :)

 

Typically, you don't really kill a Knight in melee unless you absolutely have to. To be honest, you don't kill anything in melee unless you absolutely have to :p