General Discussion

[AlphariusOmegon108]

So.. What we established over half a year ago and has been mentioned probably over a dozen times that at the siege and post-siege the EW Have around 190K full astartes (what they started 15 years before the insurrection with) and then 45 years later clones ~300k marines wich are close to the normal astartes, just very short lived is now not allowed anymore? This is getting irritating

[Slips]

So.. What we established over half a year ago and has been mentioned probably over a dozen times that at the siege and post-siege the EW Have around 190K full astartes (what they started 15 years before the insurrection with) and then 45 years later clones ~300k marines wich are close to the normal astartes, just very short lived is now not allowed anymore? This is getting irritating

Heres the thing.

 

All that Mikhail said was that there was going to be 400k Eagle Warriors at the Siege which is where the big no-nos are coming from.

 

If its: over the span of 45 years, there was a total of 300-400k Clones made who only lived for ~1-5 years before going on a genetic meltdown meaning that there'd only be ~100k of them left at the end of those 45 years, then we're cool.

 

But a Single Legion bringing 400k Marines on their own to the Siege of Terra? Big nope.

[AlphariusOmegon108]

Thats too much yeah. There are about 100k clones and 150k true eagle warrior astartes at terra. There are 50k more true eagle warriors spread through the galaxy and around 200k clones either being rebuilt by the cognis or are on crusade and assault in other parts of the galaxy. Edited August 21, 2016 by AlphariusOmegon108

[Sigismund229]

150k and then another 50k true astartes sounds like too much in a HH style scenario. True astartes should be getting killed much faster than they can replenish.

[AlphariusOmegon108]

The eagle warriors cant have 200k true astartes at their top? Yet other legions have 250k? Alrighty then

[Kelborn]

hm... let me get that..thread for just the siege of terra incoming

Edited August 21, 2016 by Kelborn

[Sigismund229]

Not not at their top but by the siege ot Terra. At Terra they've been in the field for 30 years during which time legionaries will have been dyibg faster than they can be recruited. So yes, by Terra 200k is too many imo. No, 200k is not too many on the dawn of the Insurrection(in fact imo for thz EW it should be higher than 200k seeing as they knew this war was coming and would start recruiting more like the WB)

[MikhalLeNoir]

Uhm guys. Sorry but this is a bit of a hypocritical discussion here.

 

Look at the numbers at the start of the insurrecrion.

 

Legion Sizes

Lightning Bearers: 250,000 (?) [Traitor]

Halycon Wardens: 240,000 [Loyalist]

Eagle Warriors: 187,000 [Traitor]

Crimson Lions: 180,000 - 200,000 [Loyalist]

Scions Hospitiliar: 150-170,000. [Loyalist]

Godslayers: 163,000 [Traitor]

Warbringers: 160,000 [Revolutionary]

Iron Bears: 160,000 [Loyalist]

Wardens of Light: 157,000 [Neutral]

Fire Keepers: 150,000 [Loyalist]

Ghost Walkers: 145,000 [Traitor]

The Drowned: 140,000 [Revolutionary]

Jackals: 120,000 [Renegade]

Dune Serpents: 97,000 [Loyalist]

Void Eagles: 92,000 [Loyalist]

Jade Legion: 30,000 [Revoultionary]

Grave Stalkers: 10,000 [Traitor]

Berserkers of Uran: ???

 

Emperor returns to Terra: 000.M31

 

Sigi suggested to boost his numbers lately. And those numbers above were BEFORE it was suggested that we can increase the numbers bei 20%

 

There are no clones mentioned. The insurrection lasts 27 years. You don't know how fast "clones" can be created. But assuming that Corax tried to rebuilt a whole legion in a very short timeframe, if Alexos was successful he could at least make the clones. Of they melt away? I don't know where this was established.

 

Number looks fairly high and we have big losses in the 27 years of warfare. Amd remember that the Eagles were most often the sneaky attackers. So their losses wouldn't be necessarily as big as those of the others. So if we habe other legion with 200+ marines. Or even more, I honestly don't see why 400k would be in comparison too much including clones.

 

Is it too much for the scenario? Imho yes. Which means cutting down ALL numbers above a certain number. Is it too much for a galaxy including trillions of people and thousands of worlds? Think on it.

 

 

Maybe alter the Eagles Numbers Including 187k true and 200k Clone Astartes at the beginning of the insurrection.

Edited August 21, 2016 by MikhalLeNoir

[Sigismund229]

@Mikhal. Actually I boosted my numbers after the 20% thing and by Terra there are only going to be 90k Lions left. That's a far cry from having 200k marines left after 30 years of the Insurrection.

 

If that number includes clones/things I'd be fine with it. But AO specifically said true marines. Imo no legion except the WoL should grow in terms of "true marines" during the Insurrection.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Sigismund229

[Kelborn]

New thread is up. Please post your stuff in there and let us keep this one for really general discussions and questions, ok?

 

Otherwise no one will be able to find certain (and partially) important information in here.

 

Thanks!

Edited August 21, 2016 by Kelborn

[MikhalLeNoir]

@sigi: but your marines were attacked in their own dominion and fought at the forefronts. They are unbested fighters, but as I see the lions World Angels or Blood Eaters, I see them always at the storms eye where the battle is the most. While the eagles send their tanks filled with cline troopers and roll over everything away or just nuke the shazaam out of most if rhe enemies. Or holding back letting others fight while they outflank then the enemy.

 

 

Damn ninja kelborn!!!

Edited August 21, 2016 by MikhalLeNoir

[Sigismund229]

Seeing as this is on numbers I'll keep it here rather than cluttering the siege thread.

 

@Mikhal: True, so the EW will have more left than my boys(who only got a boost in numbers so that they could then take heavy losses in the Insurrection without being salamandered. But the idea of any legion growing during the Insurrection just feels wrong.

[MikhalLeNoir]

The Wardens of Light does^^

 

Because of that I suggested to raise their numbers at the start significantly. Then their number is not so much off at the siege.( not 400k but including clones a high number should be doable)

[bluntblade]

Thing is, the logic that grinds down the Lions cuts both ways. The Eagle Warriors will be fighting one of the fiercest loyal Legions on their home turf, which will mean enormous casualties. Let alone the push to Terra, with only five full Legions to carry most of the burden. They might start that push upwards of 200,000 but they won't have that many when they get to the Throneworld.

[~Drakzilla~]

Pardon my ignorance, but why do the Wardens grow?

[MikhalLeNoir]

They fight the fiercest legiom with the berserkers on their side. Sending the berserkers into the grinder. That is not really an argument.

 

 

@Drak: Thst is simple: Day of Revelation: 157000-25000

 

But the wardens don't participate into the insurrection for about 25 years. No grinder. A lot of refugees entering caerbannog. So a lot of possible candidates. So they recover their numbers and add 3000 to be them 160k. A small growth but a growth^^

[bluntblade]

They won't just be sending the Berserkers into the grinder, and they will be driven out of Mycenae at the end of the day. The Word Bearers take some serious casualties during the Shadow Crusade, for comparison.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Sorry but as the story is not written yet and AO didn't decide how his army would male warfare in the dominion you just can't know.

 

A silly example but what if he sends his tanks filled up with slaves and only 1 slaver marine accompagnies them? Mass tank assaults are the thing of the eagles. So how many lions for a tank?

 

Making suggestions how it would be played out is a thing but already pin it down as if it was written in stone? Sorry that won't work. If the eagles sent the berserkers who love to kill the lions amd stay behind?

5

I don't know how this plays oit. Only that alexos is there and le hec amd raltra duell amd a mew daemon is born with jec temporarily missing. The rest is not taken on.

[bluntblade]

It just stands to reason that any Legion attempting to wipe out another is looking at severe casualties of their own, outside of something like the Drop Site Massacre. To do otherwise risks accusations of Sueism.

 

Apart from anything else, a whole Tribe of the Iron Bears will arrive to break the Siege of Cadia, with murderous results. It won't disrupt Alexos' goals, but they'll inflict a lot of pain.

Edited August 21, 2016 by bluntblade

[MikhalLeNoir]

So how many legionaires can unactually clone? Looking at corax he tried to rebuilt his legion with it. How much in 7 years did he built (alpha shenanigans aside)

 

And it totally depends on the strategy of warfare. Easiest would be: exterminatus on whole planets and then send the zerkers. That would be my tactic

[Sigismund229]

It just stands to reason that any Legion attempting to wipe out another is looking at severe casualties of their own, outside of something like the Drop Site Massacre. To do otherwise risks accusations of Sueism.

 

Apart from anything else, a whole Tribe of the Iron Bears will arrive to break the Siege of Cadia, with murderous results. It won't disrupt Alexos' goals, but they'll inflict a lot of pain.

Along with Hectarion and 80,000 Crimson Lions who are by now incredibly pissed off. However, I agree with Mikhal. We don't know much about the Blood Crusade and so while I think the EW should take heavy losses in the Dominion, it's ultimitely up to AO to decide how they'll be jsed in the Insurrection.

 

Although we did discuss an attack on thz Blood Strs by the Cognis&EW corpora Ferro

[Slips]

So how many legionaires can unactually clone? Looking at corax he tried to rebuilt his legion with it. How much in 7 years did he built (alpha shenanigans aside)

 

And it totally depends on the strategy of warfare. Easiest would be: exterminatus on whole planets and then send the zerkers. That would be my tactic

Wiki's say that only 1 of every 100 cloned marine for the RG was worthy and only a couple hundred were made before the end of the Heresy.

Then Corax personally killed them all.

[Sigismund229]

 

 

So how many legionaires can unactually clone? Looking at corax he tried to rebuilt his legion with it. How much in 7 years did he built (alpha shenanigans aside)

 

And it totally depends on the strategy of warfare. Easiest would be: exterminatus on whole planets and then send the zerkers. That would be my tactic

Wiki's say that only 1 of every 100 cloned marine for the RG was worthy and only a couple hundred were made before the end of the Heresy.

Then Corax personally killed them all.

And they weren't clones so much as sm made with new and improved gene-seed.

 

And my idea was less clones and more vat grown gal-vorbak for a unit all the traitors could use

Edited August 21, 2016 by Sigismund229

[MikhalLeNoir]

Yeah. But corax marines were flawed from the start. 1 out of 100. And how long does it take for them to be created? Or is there anywhere mention of another clone army or clones in w40k?

 

 

@sig: those i see as elites as the gal vorbak are stronger than normal marines. The clones AO108 developed are more human. I can see giving them the stats of the sister of battle to show, thst they are not full marines but they can use the equipement like normal astartes.aybe with strength on marine levels as I am sure Travier looks for ripped bodies with aaaaaaaaabs^^ ( if we ever make rules for them)

[bluntblade]

Corvus was working with knowledge directly imparted by Big E. Any work Cognis does should be on par with his results at best, I reckon. If nothing else, Cognis have a whole bunch of other experiments, and the fact that failed subjects can be recycled into the Corpora Ferro should mean they're not overly concerned with stable clones.