Leviathan Siege Dread tactics

[Ishagu]

Terminus has a point. I can literally drop two Cortus Contemptors in Pods for the same price as one of these Leviathans.

Seems like the better choice :-/

[helterskelter]

Could 2 cortus contemptors take out a leviathan? Then apply the result to your decision

[Terminus]

Making points is what I do. Terminus! :D

 

That said, don't get carried away with my wisdom, a bare-bones Leviathan is 310 points with chainfist/melta+grav bombard+phosphex discharger. 330 with ceramite. Or it doesn't even have to be a bombard, let's assume the melta-lance is also 20 points.

 

Two Contemptor Cortis are 350 points.  Then there is also the issue of only one drop pod needed for Leviathan, and two drop pods needed for the Cortis.  Then you have to consider the other drop pods you must include if you want them to show up on turn 1.  Cortus rules also only allow singles to go into pods, so you need multiple slots for them.  So there are definite deployment benefits and cost-savings of at least 85 points in the concentration of power of the Leviathan.

 

Defensively, you get 6 hull points behind AV13/11 5++ vs. 4 behind AV13/13 4++ and ceramite.  Shooting against tanks, it's 4 haywire templates vs. 4 BS5 meltashots (3 at S9), so the Cortis have an advantage against ceramite AV14 only. Even the bombard is not a terrible slouch with 1/6 chance to cause 2 hull points to AV14 even if it has ceramite and flareshields (about 50% to cause 2 to AV11), and like the graviton guns leaves behind a big screw you template.  Then it has nipple flame throwers/volkite and the phosphex discharger, which is a nightmare for any nearby infantry.

 

In melee the Contemptors do outshine by being able to engage two targets and racking up to 12 attacks plus 2 HoW between the two of them, but the Leviathan is still no slouch with with 5 attacks at I5 and 2 HoW of his own.

 

So it depends.  If you're not taking an orbital assault where you have scoring units in pods you don't mind holding back, the Leviathan is a cheaper investment.  In a pod-heavy list, by all means load up.  Ideally, I'd like to drop 2 Cortis and a Leviathan simultaneously. :D

[caladancid]

Two contemptors with dual claws and grav are probably better if all they would do is shoot. The leviathan with the drill is a beast at AT though, and in an entirely different way than the shooting which does seem to tilt towards contemptor cortus x2.

[Ishagu]

You could save a few points on those Cortus :-P

[Ceadus]

Interesting... more stuff to think about.

[Terminus]

Two contemptors with dual claws and grav are probably better if all they would do is shoot. The leviathan with the drill is a beast at AT though, and in an entirely different way than the shooting which does seem to tilt towards contemptor cortus x2.

Again, it depends. 4 grav and 4 melta shots can be comparable depending on the armor they are hunting. If it's not the heaviest stuff, the melta's damage rolls are probably better. The Contemptors also don't have anything like a phosphex discharger as a deterrent either, and remember they are only AV11 on the side and you are landing in the middle of your opponent.  They will burn bright but briefly.

 

They can also get chainfists, so that's 12 S10 armorbane attacks.

[Hesh Kadesh]

It's worth pointing out as well that the DCCW ups the Dreadnoughts attacks to 4 base, 2nd DCCW gives 5, Rage gives 7. Less useful for armour killing, sure. But 21 S10 I4 AP2 attacks is rathe hilarious.

 

It's also worth pointing out that the Leviathan, if that gets a charge, it gets I5, and WS5 I5 rather exclusively nixes the Cortus Dreads. I don't know if the Grav bombard was updated to get Haywire or not in favour of that crap 3d6 rules (how do 6 Graviton Guns duck taped together become worse at AV?), but either way, that can ping off a few more wounds. Plus, if you decide to go balls to the wall and pick up a Kharybdis which can try and get a flank on you for 10 S6 shots to a flank, it can cause a few more HP's.

[Caillum]

How exactly does the first DCCW add an extra attack?

[Hesh Kadesh]

It's what the rules says it does. There is an asterisk by the side of the Replace TLHB with a DCCW with TL Bolter (but not by the Chainfist) which states "This grants the Dreadnought an additional Close Combat Attack while equipped*. No clarification that it's for two melee weapons (in which case, why is the Chainfist not included, as the latest FAQ goes to the effort of including it as a DCCW equivalent so that it can grant a bonus attack without needing two), it's just a flat out +1 Attack for taking a second DCCW - which because it's a second melee weapon grants another bonus attack.

 

It's not just me is it?

Edited February 13, 2016 by Flint13
keep it social

[caladancid]

You are not correct. The rules you are referencing talk about the second weapon. So no, it isn't basic because you are wrong.

[Slips]

You are not correct. The rules you are referencing talk about the second weapon. So no, it isn't basic because you are wrong.

Mind going into more detailed explanation instead of "You're Wrong"?

[Caillum]

I see where you guys are interpreting that as gaining multiple extra attacks, but I feel like that's not at all in the spirit of the game. I'm not willing to go into another rules argument over what should be common sense (and yes, I know this could have been solved by rules-writing clarity), but suffice to say that I wouldn't play like that or let my opponent play like that.

[Terminus]

Any Legion Contemptor Dreadnought in the Talon may replace their twin-linked heavy

bolter with one of the following:

Dreadnought close combat weapon with inbuilt twin-linked bolter

(This grants the Dreadnought an additional close combat attack)

 

To try to argue that this is a universal rule that applies to all dreadnought close combat weapons is extremely cagey and clearly just a case of vague wording (no surprise) on FW's part.   We all know what they meant and that the act of replacing the gun with another arm is what grants an extra attack. There's no need to inject that kind of 40K dickishness into AoD, and if your local meta is that pedantic, you need to kill it with fire.

 

That said, what's interesting to me, and correct me since I haven't played traditional 40K in a while, but don't dreadnoughts lose an attack when they give up the fist? The Contemptor keeps all three, I guess it just kicks stuff to death at that point.

[Ishagu]

I don't believe they do, it's not specified anywhere.

[Slips]

They have 3A Base that aren't influenced by their Combat Weapons so I'd say no, unlike the 40k Dreads, they do not lose attacks for not having a Fist.

 

Also, aren't Mortis Dreads 3A Too?

[Theredknight]

I agree with hesh here it's very strange, il send an email for what it's worth tomorrow, but if ppl don't send emails in, they won't faq!

 

It looks at first glance to mean just the regular 2 arms = extra attack.

But then you think we'll they FAQd this not long ago at all, and it doesn't say that fist and chainfist are the same.

It seems to say they are different, and taking fists while not as good at armour, will be better at mashing infantry.

Il ask my group about it next time were there

[1ncarnadine]

They have 3A Base that aren't influenced by their Combat Weapons so I'd say no, unlike the 40k Dreads, they do not lose attacks for not having a Fist.

 

Also, aren't Mortis Dreads 3A Too?

 

Yeah, as of the January FAQ they're all 3A base.

 

 

I agree with hesh here it's very strange, il send an email for what it's worth tomorrow, but if ppl don't send emails in, they won't faq!

 

It looks at first glance to mean just the regular 2 arms = extra attack.

But then you think we'll they FAQd this not long ago at all, and it doesn't say that fist and chainfist are the same.

It seems to say they are different, and taking fists while not as good at armour, will be better at mashing infantry.

Il ask my group about it next time were there

 

Yeah it's a weird one. Like, they could've added an asterisk to the Chainfist or just deleted the line entirely because of course having two ccws get you an extra attack. There are throwback lines that are similar in the old LACAL Contemptor entry but it's just so odd that it shows up the way it does in the Cortus entry.

 

It doesn't actually matter for me though; my two dual-Grav Contemptors both have chainfists so either way, no personal investment. Maybe if I were to build more Contemptors and plan to run them as Cortus though

[Fallen11]

Do you find that if you field 2 Leviathans in pods that's OP? Especially if both arrive on 1st turn.

[helterskelter]

Depends how you have them armed. If you pop out the pods with a dirty amount of firepower that wouldnt make you many friends. If you had one built for CC dropping out it'd have to take a turn of abuse before it did anything. All contextual

[Slips]

No, not really.

 

Why? Because it runs you upwards of 600 Points to do so not including the, at minimum, 3rd pod you'd need to guarantee both of them dropping in together.

 

Sooooo 700+ Points in that instance.

[helterskelter]

I dunno twin melta lance lev pointed at any backline vehicle would be a bit cheeky. Make it for a BA army and add in Assault cannon for rending lolz. Bye, bye, beautiful

[Slips]

True, 6 S9 Ap1 Shots into rear armor is nasty but how much tank are you killing with that?

 

Its all about return on investment at that point.

 

If those shot can gib a Spartan and strand the unit inside, cool! Thats Roughly 600 points of unit stranded with their 300 point tank dead with its job left unaccomplished.

 

If they dont kill the tank or you shoot more into it, then your opponent is pretty happy with that even if the spartan dies since your sinking a larger part of your army into a single unit of his meaning the rest of his army can move about much more freely.

 

If you're shooting those 600 points to Leviathans w/ Melta into Predator Squadrons, each Leviathan will have to, on their own, destroy an entire 3-tank Squad for it to have been immediately worth it. Otherwise, those tanks can probably turn around and maybe even kill the leviathan.

 

A thing is, in my opinion, OP if it can get Magnitudes over its original points cost for inclusion into a list back in return with Little-To-No Effort involved; much like a Typhon. You just point-and-click and watch it earn its points back and more. Or a Screamer Star that only need 2-3 Psychic Powers to work for a 2++ Re-Rollable Save. Or Wraithknights, the Prime Example of something being Criminally undercosted for what it does and can do.

 

And to me, Two Leviathans are not. They have the potential to but comparatively speaking, they rarely will. They're good at what they do, very much so, but 2 Heavy Support Slots tied into two 300 Point Dreads and their Pods is hardly Overpowered.

 

Sure, they can be used to point-and-click Vape TEQ and Weaker with the Grav Flux but single shot will rarely earn his entire points cost back; neither will the Melta Lance Despite how much I like it over the Storm Cannon mainly because while its S9 Ap1, its 18" and Armored Ceramite stifles its application Somewhat and since the upgrade is ubiquitous with very expensive tanks....

 

Also, 3 S9 Ap1 Melta Shots on anything weaker than, say, a Sicaran or pricey like a Kharybdis, is MAJOR overkill and can be done much more efficiently with something else.

 

So, in short, are Two Leviathans OP?

 

No.

 

Will they steamroll everything (like some of the above examples can)?

 

No.

 

Can they make the unprepared Weep permitting you to see them driven before you followed by hearing the lamentations of their Women?

 

Yes.

 

Will it do the same to someone whose adequately prepared to mitigate such a threat?

 

No.

 

Is this still a dice game where, RNGesus willing, even the most statistically improbable things can happen such as a Knight Dying and Domino-Effecting into another Knight and setting off a 13-Knight Chain Reaction Mostly because of Horribly Coincidental Scatter and essentially turning one side of the table into a smoldering crater devoid of all life?

 

Why, yes. Yes it can.

 

...In the same way that a Grot squad can potentially with combat vs a Primarch and Retinue.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Slipstreams

[Theredknight]

I had an idea for ba for 'drop zone clearance' but had to stop myself..

 

It involved 2 leviathans kitted with double grav, phospex and assault cannon nipples, podding in t1 (can use to cover assault marines) clearing away most things and t2 have my 2 cortus assault cannon dccw clear anything else out.

For extra dirtiness, pop down a plas deredeo, with assault cannon nips, with atomantic pavaise for a sweet 3++ on the leviathans. As you round up, all 3 could arrive t1..

 

I don't think I'd have many friends if I did that though..

 

I'm talking 3-3.5k game here btw,

[Slips]

Eh, I wouldnt go with dual-shooty on Leviathans since the majority of their power comes from CC and gimping that for a 2nd Gun isn't worth it, imo.