[HH1.0] Thousand Sons tactica

[Withershadow]

As a side point, is a Sekhmet who chooses one power (say levitation) and generates another (say biomancy), does that count as having generated all your powers from the same discipline? :P

[Jarkaira]

Good point :)

[jgascoine011]

I just played a 1750 point game using thousand sons vs Ynnari

I have not played 40k/30k in ages, like literally over a year, so I was a bit rusty on the rules but my opponent was very good at keeping me in check.

 

I wanted to test out most of the thousand sons units, and only took what I had available (or could easily proxy) so it wasnt the most optimal list.

 

Still at 1750 I had

Arihman

 - Pride of the Legion RoW

2 Mortis contemptors with twin Kheres Cannons

5 Occult Blades

 - with attached appothecary

10 Scarab Terminators

10 Vets

 - ML1, Marksmen, Shred ammo, and a rhino

5 Ammatars

1 Predator with autocannons and las sponsons

 

The Ynnari player had some typical ridiculous eldar stuff.

Farseer with :cuss

3 units of 5 Harlequins with lots of AP2 stuff in Starweavers

 - Each one also had a ML2 shadow seer or something, honestly I have no :cussing idea what these guys had/did

Hemlock Wraith fighter with ML2

3 Units of 3 Shadow Specters....which are now 25pts/model....are you kidding me Forgeworld?

Oh and a lynx...which isnt a super heavy but has 5 HP and 3 shot D weapon or large blast and Twin-Linked, and can move 12" and shoot 48", and has all sorts of other stupid rules...for like 350 points

 

I had a big mistake in deployment and scouted my terminators forward, so they got shot alot and charged by all 3 units of Harelquins.

After his 1st turn, they were down to Arihman and 3 Terminators, but took out 1 Harelquin unit.

 

However i did realise a few things

1) TS veteran squads are beasts. I managed to roll precognition on them, and give them a 4++ with arhiman and they probably would have won me the game had i not misscast twice, and on the 2nd misscast blew up the whole unit....lool. I also completlet forgot that they had 3 attacks in combat, not 1, and had i remembered it probably would have been alot closer

I only had 1 unit but i wish I had atleast 2, and i think any competitive list will probably be running 3.

2) The occult blades are just not worth it. I managed to roll warp speed on them and they put out a tonne of attacks, but without access to jump packs you should never take these guys, unless in a Anvillus Pod, and even then, why bother when you could have more veterans lol. They did wipe out the final unit of harequins with farseer and remaining shadow seer. Other than that they spent most of the game hiding in terrain

3) The Ammatars were probably the most useless unit in the game. Never ever take these guys over veteran snipers. The most useful thing they did was provide me with 2 warp charges. Had they been troops, or maybe even scoring then possibly they could be useful. But right now, honestly the worst unit in the TS list by far.

4) Arhiman is a god damn beast, despite me not knowing what the hell i was doing most of the time. Again, he will be in every single competitive list.

 

I didnt really have a chance to test the Scarab terminators, but they are really tanky. Will still fall to lots of saving throws though.

 

 

The new Ynnari  rules are a bit broken,  for example I have units charging me in my psychic phase (because i blew up my own unit, his harlequins could charge me). If there was limits on it, then it might be okay, but right now its totally open for abuse. 

[NemoVonUtopia]

I've been thinking about trying to make an allied detachment to represent the spireguard. I don't know if solar auxilia or imperial cults wold work better, or even if there is any advantage in doing so because I would loose access to pride of the Legion and guard of the crims on king.

[Nusquam]

I just played a 1750 point game using thousand sons vs Ynnari

 

[snip]

 

3 Units of 3 Shadow Specters....which are now 25pts/model....are you kidding me Forgeworld?

 

To be fair, Shadow Spectres are terrible now; The got hit hard with a nerf bat and are paper-thin T3 W1 3+. Their shooting got worse and their save is now a 5+ cover save that could reach a 4+. The lynx is also a regular AV12 skimmer, so you can stun and shake it easily. Even OHKO it. Potent, but a glass cannon.

 

Also how did you "blow up the whole unit"? Perils and brotherhood only affects one model randomly per wound.

 

I don't agree with your assertions of the Blades; you had minimal count with no transportation against Eldar. Even if it wasn't against Eldar, it wasn't an optimal use of them. An assault transport is mandatory with all dedicated CC units that only move 6" in normal games. I get you were testing things, but writing them off after they under performed in a bad scenario is too soon.

 

The Ammitara didn't surprise me, sniper vets outclass them in a lot of ways.

 

I agree Ahriman is good, but I don't think he's an auto-include when ML3 Biomancy Praetors with a 3++ exist.

 

Also the new Ynnari are incredibly over-powered by comparison to the 30k legions; their new "United in Death" mechanic is essentially "Trade Up: The Mechanic" so it's not really fair to compare against what legion lists could do. Free out of phase shooting attacks and charge moves when you kill them or things die near them on your turn? Disgusting.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Nusquam

[N1SB]

Just a question out of curiosity, as i'm currently working on other projects, but want to plan ahead:

 

What's the optimal Corvidae Ksons army pls?  Let's say for this exercise we make an army where the only Cult is Corvidae.

 

I've been following this thread and it looks like some sort of list based around Veterans with Asphyx Rounds, i.e. a Chosen Duty RoW list.  Then add in probably some Rapiers and perhaps Support Squads.

 

My main concern is that I think the Corvidae re-rolls only apply if you don't Move.  So it helps more with the Rapiers and Support Squads, but is much more situational with the Veterans Squads.

 

I'm happy to be proven wrong.  My goal is to make a Loyalist Corvidae Ksons who will be the precursors of Blood Ravens.  My fallback is Raptora Sekhmet Terminators with that Guard of the Crimson King RoW, supported by some elements of Corvidae for fire support.

[jgascoine011]

 

I just played a 1750 point game using thousand sons vs Ynnari

 

[snip]

 

3 Units of 3 Shadow Specters....which are now 25pts/model....are you kidding me Forgeworld?

 

To be fair, Shadow Spectres are terrible now; The got hit hard with a nerf bat and are paper-thin T3 W1 3+. Their shooting got worse and their save is now a 5+ cover save that could reach a 4+. The lynx is also a regular AV12 skimmer, so you can stun and shake it easily. Even OHKO it. Potent, but a glass cannon.

 

Also how did you "blow up the whole unit"? Perils and brotherhood only affects one model randomly per wound.

 

I don't agree with your assertions of the Blades; you had minimal count with no transportation against Eldar. Even if it wasn't against Eldar, it wasn't an optimal use of them. An assault transport is mandatory with all dedicated CC units that only move 6" in normal games. I get you were testing things, but writing them off after they under performed in a bad scenario is too soon.

 

The Ammitara didn't surprise me, sniper vets outclass them in a lot of ways.

 

I agree Ahriman is good, but I don't think he's an auto-include when ML3 Biomancy Praetors with a 3++ exist.

 

Also the new Ynnari are incredibly over-powered by comparison to the 30k legions; their new "United in Death" mechanic is essentially "Trade Up: The Mechanic" so it's not really fair to compare against what legion lists could do. Free out of phase shooting attacks and charge moves when you kill them or things die near them on your turn? Disgusting.

 

 

Still, 100 points for a potential S10, AP1, lance hit is disgusting.

And i never thought about you could stun the lynx, but even then it can still fire its twin linked 3 shot d-weapon. Still, had i been taking a more optimal list it would probably have done better.

 

 

The unit blew up because i rolled a 1 and then failed my LD check...:(

I even rolled a 1 both times for both of their miscasts..urgh

 

With the blades, lets say you have a unit of 10, in a anvillus drop pod...what are they supposed to do?

On the charge they have 5 attacks at WS6?, but you could just have taken vets with WS5 to have 4 attacks on the charge. They will mince through 3+ saves, but then so will most things, and the force weapons are really only good against 2+ save units. Sure if they get iron arm they are good but that is only 1 in 6 games...maybe in 8th where you can hopefully pick your powers, but right now, for their points i would prefer other units. I mean 10 of them with anvilus is about 410 points, for less points i could take a leviathan and pod it in, which could take on 2+ saves aswell

[jgascoine011]

Just a question out of curiosity, as i'm currently working on other projects, but want to plan ahead:

 

What's the optimal Corvidae Ksons army pls?  Let's say for this exercise we make an army where the only Cult is Corvidae.

 

I've been following this thread and it looks like some sort of list based around Veterans with Asphyx Rounds, i.e. a Chosen Duty RoW list.  Then add in probably some Rapiers and perhaps Support Squads.

 

My main concern is that I think the Corvidae re-rolls only apply if you don't Move.  So it helps more with the Rapiers and Support Squads, but is much more situational with the Veterans Squads.

 

I'm happy to be proven wrong.  My goal is to make a Loyalist Corvidae Ksons who will be the precursors of Blood Ravens.  My fallback is Raptora Sekhmet Terminators with that Guard of the Crimson King RoW, supported by some elements of Corvidae for fire support.

 

 

Fortunately for you Corvidae cult is probably the strongest cult for TS. However there is not really an optimal corvidae list, only fluffy lists.

 

Yes you can re-roll 1's only if you are stationary, but vets are ML1, so always have presience but can also get pregonition (which they cast on a 3+), getting re-rolls to hit anyway.

 

I dont actually think corvidae helps Rapier squads as i think the laser destroyers are twin-linked anyway, and the quad launchers/gravitation cannons scatter.

If you wanted to be fluffy i would take the laser destroyers though.

 

Arhiman is also corvidae so fits in well

He can also take a command squad with ML which must be corvidae. This is a really expensive squad though and I would imagine it would be hard to make their points back. Still if you take them, give them Volkite chargers and Shields.

On a side not, i saw a beautiful 30k thousand sons the other day, honestly the best looking army i have ever seen, and the guy had used shields from the AoS stormcasts. They looked amazing and fit in so well

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NO/Stormcast-Eternals-Celestial-Warbringers-Upgrades

 

Heavy weapon squads with volkites work well and give a nice bunker for arihman, but they will attract alot of attention so just make sure to use that 60" range.

 

Annamatras are crap compared to veterans but are fluffy for a corvidae list i suppose.

 

Support squads with plasma guns fit in well, but without access to drop pods are a bit immoblie, and are also very expensive.

 

If you wanted to only use corvidae then i would probably not run the Scarab terminators as they are best used with the 3++.

[Withershadow]

Anyway, to answer the question being asked, the core of any Corvidae list would be Ahriman and two Veterans. Quad launchers' main armament is the shatter shells which do not scatter, they benefit from Corvidae just fine. Other things that benefit from that cult are Quad Mortars, heavy support squads, veterans, seekers, and volkite or rotor tactical support squads.  The command squad is usually a nice, inexpensive small combat unit or terminators++ (never with volkites, that's a wasteful idea). You can't go terminators since Ahzek is in power armor, and you have better melee options that can sweep (Tartaros Sekhment or Blade Cult or even the scouts).  At it's most economical, you get 2 mastery levels for 125 points.  I think at this point-level, you're better off taking a Librarian for a couple of reasons:

 

1. Librarian is an extra IC to prevent the Ld penalty when you lose all your ICs.

2. You already have 6 mastery levels tied into Divination between the compulsory Ahriman and 2 veteran squads.

 

You get a much more flexible and stronger force multiplier with a free-range independent character psyker rather than the command squad.  That said, you could probably kitbash a cool-looking 3-man "sorcerer cabal", even if it wouldn't be super potent. The company banner you could model as some occult staff or a virgin sacrifice or something.

3.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Slipstreams
Personal Attacks, are against board rules.

[Purge the Daemon]

 

Anyway, to answer the question being asked, the core of any Corvidae list would be Ahriman and two Veterans. Quad launchers' main armament is the shatter shells which do not scatter, they benefit from Corvidae just fine. Other things that benefit from that cult are Quad Mortars, heavy support squads, veterans, seekers, and volkite or rotor tactical support squads. The command squad is usually a nice, inexpensive small combat unit or terminators++ (never with volkites, that's a wasteful idea). You can't go terminators since Ahzek is in power armor, and you have better melee options that can sweep (Tartaros Sekhment or Blade Cult or even the scouts). At it's most economical, you get 2 mastery levels for 125 points. I think at this point-level, you're better off taking a Librarian for a couple of reasons:

 

1. Librarian is an extra IC to prevent the Ld penalty when you lose all your ICs.

2. You already have 6 mastery levels tied into Divination between the compulsory Ahriman and 2 veteran squads.

 

You get a much more flexible and stronger force multiplier with a free-range independent character psyker rather than the command squad. That said, you could probably kitbash a cool-looking 3-man "sorcerer cabal", even if it wouldn't be super potent. The company banner you could model as some occult staff or a virgin sacrifice or something.

3.

I would concur with the statement ahriman bodyguard is fluffy I guess but not super useful. There are just better ways to gain mastery levels until you max out HQ options, then I'd maybe consider them but at that point the game should be large enough to thier points cost is insignificant as well.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Slipstreams

[Charlo]

Shatter shells re-rolling 1s is naaaaaasty. Good bye hull points!

[Nusquam]

 

 

I just played a 1750 point game using thousand sons vs Ynnari

 

[snip]

 

3 Units of 3 Shadow Specters....which are now 25pts/model....are you kidding me Forgeworld?

 

To be fair, Shadow Spectres are terrible now; The got hit hard with a nerf bat and are paper-thin T3 W1 3+. Their shooting got worse and their save is now a 5+ cover save that could reach a 4+. The lynx is also a regular AV12 skimmer, so you can stun and shake it easily. Even OHKO it. Potent, but a glass cannon.

 

Also how did you "blow up the whole unit"? Perils and brotherhood only affects one model randomly per wound.

 

I don't agree with your assertions of the Blades; you had minimal count with no transportation against Eldar. Even if it wasn't against Eldar, it wasn't an optimal use of them. An assault transport is mandatory with all dedicated CC units that only move 6" in normal games. I get you were testing things, but writing them off after they under performed in a bad scenario is too soon.

 

The Ammitara didn't surprise me, sniper vets outclass them in a lot of ways.

 

I agree Ahriman is good, but I don't think he's an auto-include when ML3 Biomancy Praetors with a 3++ exist.

 

Also the new Ynnari are incredibly over-powered by comparison to the 30k legions; their new "United in Death" mechanic is essentially "Trade Up: The Mechanic" so it's not really fair to compare against what legion lists could do. Free out of phase shooting attacks and charge moves when you kill them or things die near them on your turn? Disgusting.

 

 

Still, 100 points for a potential S10, AP1, lance hit is disgusting.

And i never thought about you could stun the lynx, but even then it can still fire its twin linked 3 shot d-weapon. Still, had i been taking a more optimal list it would probably have done better.

 

 

The unit blew up because i rolled a 1 and then failed my LD check...

I even rolled a 1 both times for both of their miscasts..urgh

 

With the blades, lets say you have a unit of 10, in a anvillus drop pod...what are they supposed to do?

On the charge they have 5 attacks at WS6?, but you could just have taken vets with WS5 to have 4 attacks on the charge. They will mince through 3+ saves, but then so will most things, and the force weapons are really only good against 2+ save units. Sure if they get iron arm they are good but that is only 1 in 6 games...maybe in 8th where you can hopefully pick your powers, but right now, for their points i would prefer other units. I mean 10 of them with anvilus is about 410 points, for less points i could take a leviathan and pod it in, which could take on 2+ saves aswell

 

 

I think you got played by that Eldar player... 3 Spectres can only do S9 AP4 at max. For every hit it's +1S or -1AP, not both. If there was a prism blaster you could get S10, but still only AP4. Taking lance into account the optimal setting would be a single S8 AP2 if every shot hit.

 

Yeah the lynx can be stunned and forced to jink. 3 shot TL D is still spooky, but better than full if it were firing at full BS. It's also ordnance so any other weapons would snap fire. You could even blow the D gun off. It only has two starting weapons.

 

Ah so the unit didn't survive the d6 hits from perils.

 

What the blades do is use Force for instant death. Here's a post from earlier:

 

The Chaplain has guaranteed rerolls in every first round. The Blade Cabal at 10+ with a Chaplain would deal 23 wounds MEQ at I4 right out of the gate. With the warp charges you saved from not casting prescience you could easily cast force making them all negate any FNP effects. Without the reroll it's 17. So you could eat blobs either way.

 

Against T4 2+ you cause 3 wounds. With force that's three dead fire drakes or death shroud. With the Chaplain it's 4. This is at I4 before they even swing.

 

Plus because you're rolling on biomancy for the Blade Cabal you have a chance at Iron Arm, which would kill about 13 fire drake equivalents under force at I4 and make you T7 to avoid ID from S8. Or Warp Speed, killing 6 drake equivalents. Or you might get enfeeble, reducing them to S7. So if you had an apothecary you would get FnP. Endurance is pure gold so long as you don't face ID. The last two powers are just more AP2 wounds to couple with smite to shoot some wounds off first. The Chaplain can take two plasma pistols as well if you want to try to peel off more wounds.

 

10 WM Vets with 10 power swords is 260, 10 Blades are 310. What you get with that 50 points are 51 attacks on the charge at WS6(giving an advantage over WM vets should they face them), the ability to negate FnP/kill multiwound models, and psychic brotherhood. Sure they're only AP3, but inside an anvillus(which you would buy for the vets too) to get them to their target with relative ease and safety, they will mince things with raw numbers. Rolling on biomancy they get smite for some AP2 shooting automatically, and have a 1/3 chance of getting iron arm or warp speed. Either power would make them that much more potent directly; Warp Speed would allow them to roll over any line troop before they can strike back and Iron Arm sees them punching way above their weight class. While the others are Endurance, and more ranged AP2.

 

Leviathans are good, but they are a different tool for a different job. I wouldn't call them objectively better, they don't outclass the Blades or other units in all aspects. They can reliably take on TEQs stock and have good alpha strike, but still suffer the same drawbacks all dreads do. Blades are like Palantines and Dark Furies; they look awesome, are a legion unique, and slice 'n dice things. Take them for the same reasons; variety and rule of cool. Blades have discounts, not as extreme as Sekhemet or Dark Furies, but discounts nonetheless. To write them off completely is silly. They don't suffer from Destroyer syndrome or Ammitara syndrome at the very least. While at the most can devour units.

[jgascoine011]

I didnt know that it was +1S or -1AP, he probably didnt either, i will tell him next time. Kind of shame because it was the last unit that could hurt the dread and he rolled a 6 to blow it up :(

 

 

Also with rolling a 1 on perils and failing a LD check, we played it as the whole unit is removed, but i am guessing its 1 random model then D6 S6 AP1 hits, again kind of a shame because i had a 4++ re-rolling up :(

[Charlo]

So with Magnus' RoW it seems like the perfect place to slot a Herald in... Magnus is still the warlord and compulsory HQ, with the banner dude just chilling in his Sehkmet squad providing good buffs that shore-up the combat weaknesses of them. Plus he gets to deepstrike with them.

 

Can also buy a Mastery level!

[Mango Polo]

The Herald can't buy terminator armour, or anything that grants him Deep Strike though.

[Slips]

The Herald can't buy terminator armour, or anything that grants him Deep Strike though.

Any ICs in Guard of the Crimson King can deepstrike regardless of being in TDA or not.

[Charlo]

 

The Herald can't buy terminator armour, or anything that grants him Deep Strike though.

Any ICs in Guard of the Crimson King can deepstrike regardless of being in TDA or not.

 

 

Yup! Meaning this is actually the perfect spot for the herald IMO.

[Alpharius164]

Weapon upgrades like plasma guns worth it on asphyx, corvidae veterans? Torn between the extra AP2 or maxing out on the asphyx shells and keeping them cheap.

 

The re-rolls to hit when stationary or from divination help reduce Gets Hot so there's at least some synergy there.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Alpharius164

[Charlo]

Still limited to that 24" range though sadly, and you want to be in rapid fire range for that sweet extra shot with Sniper.

 

That said, more guaranteed AP2 with the high S7 is always welcome, just not super synergistic with that particular cult.

[ImNegan]

What's peoples thoughts on using destroyers and moritats in thousand sons? Tactics, cults etc?

[Charlo]

What's peoples thoughts on using destroyers and moritats in thousand sons? Tactics, cults etc?

 

Sadly, I don't think there is loads to be had in some ways. Moritats can of course become ML1 psykers, but are limited to witchfire and maledictions as they cannot benefit from blessings (thought their destroyer entourage could, I suppose).

 

In terms of the cults, nothing really stands out but I think Pavoni and Pyrae both offer something good.

 

While you'll undoubtedly want to be shooting with your Destoryers, +1 to run and more importantly sweeping will help them edge out a combat after a charge.

 

But Pyrae has some really nice damage potential, as you can most likely get two HoW off, that wound easier with the Rad grenades, plus giving a Moritat pyromancy and harnessing on a 3+ will only add to the dakka of the squad (or even better give them a 4+ cover save). At worst it's a heavy flamer that casts on a 3+

[TURBULENCE]

Moriats don't benefit from LA rules so I don't think they can choose a cult or be psykers. Could be wrong though.

 

On a side note, while we do get are own super castelax it hit me that a pravian's automata would benefit from cults. I kinda want to squish as many automata as I can in without allies, so what would people suggest for a darkfire armed castelax/pravian squad? Corvidae seems out due to the overlap with the cortex designator.

[Baluc]

Raptora, or Pyrae seem like the only to synergistic cults for Castallex.

[TURBULENCE]

Raptora, or Pyrae seem like the only to synergistic cults for Castallex.

I was thinking along those lines myself, Raptora seems best overall for me, a 4+ at distance for the whole squad is some great survivability, as opposed to a few extra hits on melee

[Withershadow]

The Praevian can also take a mastery level and add some additional buffs to the unit. Divination seems most obvious route, so you can get rerolls even when too far to trigger preferred enemy.