[HH1.0] Thousand Sons tactica

[Withershadow]

You can't argue with unambiguous words like "choose". "Choose" in no way means "randomize". By your logic Zardu aso has to roll randomly even though his rules say "select".

 

Honestly, if limiting the Sekhmet to just those two disciplines AND forcing them to randomly generate them, makes this unit straight-up garbage. Those two disciplines are full of terrible powers.

 

And again, all the chicken little crying is focusing only on the TS' strengths, and ignoring entirely their VERY SEVERE drawbacks. You are forced to buy multiple ICs just to avoid the -1 leadership which basically ends the game as you fail 50% of any fear or morale checks, and one failed perils roll can result in a chunk of your army doing nothing. In a small model-count army like the TS, that can be game-ending as well. If you want to complain about something, complain about the Custodes.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Withershadow

[Baluc]

You can't argue with unambiguous words like "choose". "Choose" in no way means "randomize". By your logic Zardu aso has to roll randomly even though his rules say "select".

 

Honestly, if limiting the Sekhmet to just those two disciplines AND forcing them to randomly generate them, makes this unit straight-up garbage. Those two disciplines are full of terrible powers.

 

And again, all the chicken little crying is focusing only on the TS' strengths, and ignoring entirely their VERY SEVERE drawbacks. You are forced to buy multiple ICs just to avoid the -1 leadership which basically ends the game as you fail 50% of any fear or morale checks, and one failed perils roll can result in a chunk of your army doing nothing. In a small model-count army like the TS, that can be game-ending as well. If you want to complain about something, complain about the Custodes.

 

What is small about a 1ksons army compared to any other legion list? Also every legion squad has a sgt who is Ld 9, making it not 50/50. Def overstating these limitations, also why weren't you taking multiple IC anyway considering for a few extra points they doubly help the army function, with consul rules, RoW and warp charges? With LOS! and how nerfed precision shot became in 7th keeping your IC safe is pretty easy man. 

[sturguard]

You can't argue with unambiguous words like "choose". "Choose" in no way means "randomize". By your logic Zardu aso has to roll randomly even though his rules say "select".

 

Honestly, if limiting the Sekhmet to just those two disciplines AND forcing them to randomly generate them, makes this unit straight-up garbage. Those two disciplines are full of terrible powers.

 

And again, all the chicken little crying is focusing only on the TS' strengths, and ignoring entirely their VERY SEVERE drawbacks. You are forced to buy multiple ICs just to avoid the -1 leadership which basically ends the game as you fail 50% of any fear or morale checks, and one failed perils roll can result in a chunk of your army doing nothing. In a small model-count army like the TS, that can be game-ending as well. If you want to complain about something, complain about the Custodes.

 

Of course you can. You may choose between the biomancy and pyromancy tables. The idea that because the language isnt the same between unit entries shouldnt be surprising at all, there are all kinds of inconsistencies scattered throughout GW/FW rules, not just Inferno. 

 

I would also argue making the terminators roll for their powers would not make them garbage at all. You're talking a 35 pt terminator, with 2 wounds, generating 2 power dice (whether you actually use them for this unit is irrelevant) with force weapons, access to a special rule (+1 invul anyone??) access to combiweapons for cheap, and a RoW built specifically for them which grants a reroll on power dice and allows the terminators to be troops and deep strike. Really? Garbage? Please find me some of that garbage in the SW entries.

 

I don't want to start again with the SW vs 1K Sons- believe me, my point is why would folks actively want to make 1K Sons better when they have the moon already? As I have been building my 1K Sons one of my gaming buddies and I have been discussing how to make 1K Sons reasonable and making the Terminators roll on the tables seems appropriate. Again, if you roll powers you wont use, who cares? You are getting dirt cheap terminators that are very resilient that are generating power dice for your Praetor to use.

[BrotherLeonidas]

Well the entry for Sekmet terminators states you can choose powers from Pyromancy and Telekinesis (maybe you are talking about Zardu). So no matter whether you interpret that as specifically selecting or rolling randomly, they wouldn't be getting access to Biomancy themselves it seems.

 

That said I still think just the fact that they are 2w, add warp charge, have force weapons and cheap combi weapons makes them one of the better special terminator units.

 

Also while they are 35pts per extra, they do come out to 51pts per for the base unit.

Edited March 1, 2017 by BrotherLeonidas

[Withershadow]

 

You can't argue with unambiguous words like "choose". "Choose" in no way means "randomize". By your logic Zardu aso has to roll randomly even though his rules say "select".

 

Honestly, if limiting the Sekhmet to just those two disciplines AND forcing them to randomly generate them, makes this unit straight-up garbage. Those two disciplines are full of terrible powers.

 

And again, all the chicken little crying is focusing only on the TS' strengths, and ignoring entirely their VERY SEVERE drawbacks. You are forced to buy multiple ICs just to avoid the -1 leadership which basically ends the game as you fail 50% of any fear or morale checks, and one failed perils roll can result in a chunk of your army doing nothing. In a small model-count army like the TS, that can be game-ending as well. If you want to complain about something, complain about the Custodes.

 

What is small about a 1ksons army compared to any other legion list? Also every legion squad has a sgt who is Ld 9, making it not 50/50. Def overstating these limitations, also why weren't you taking multiple IC anyway considering for a few extra points they doubly help the army function, with consul rules, RoW and warp charges? With LOS! and how nerfed precision shot became in 7th keeping your IC safe is pretty easy man. 

 

My Reductor Medusae and graviton imploder volleys erase Legion ICs relatively easily.  TS Veterans are awesome, but they are paying 50 points extra for that awesomeness. Many Legions can operate with just 1 HQ, for TS that is a big risk unless that HQ is Magnus.  Sure you get Consuls who are also psykers, but all of that is more points. Take a look at the list forum for Thousand Sons armies. Some of the Crimson King Rites have something like 40 dudes and Magnus and maybe a dreadnought at 3000 points. 50/50 was overstated but not by much. Ld8 fails ~28% of checks, Ld7 (no sgt) fails 42%. Significant.

 

 

 

Of course you can. You may choose between the biomancy and pyromancy tables. The idea that because the language isnt the same between unit entries shouldnt be surprising at all, there are all kinds of inconsistencies scattered throughout GW/FW rules, not just Inferno.

Disagree. The one place where they are consistent is they say GENERATE, a specific game-term also utilized in the core rulebook and in every other instance for 30K rules.

 

Amon, Ahriman, Blade Occult all generate. Ammitara don't generate normally, but instead get mind bullets. "...The Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to his Mastery Level. Each of these powers will need to be generated, as described below."

 

Every other type of wording is an exception to that rule. Zardu gets to select his powers. Lorgar gets to select his powers. Sekhmet get to choose their powers.  A 5-man unit of Sekhmet with no upgrades costs 5 points less than a Legion terminator squad with ML1, 5 power fists and 5 combi-weapons who can outpsychic, outshoot and outfight the Sekhmet. They are not that that cheap. 2 wounds is irrelevant against Typhons/Medusae/power fists.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Withershadow

[sturguard]

Again, but those 40 dudes are very good for their points and so is Magnus, otherwise people wouldnt be taking them. Internet lists aren't generally built around units that are horrible, rather units that are too good for their points.

 

Now dont get me wrong, months before the book dropped and the 40k termies came out, I was bound and determined to run a terminator heavy 1K Sons army, whether they were good or bad- but I am not going to delude myself into somehow my list is fluffy or I am trying to win with a list that will struggle.

[Withershadow]

And I am saying the list may indeed struggle due to being outnumbered. TS Crimson King lists have fewer guys and vehicles at 3K points than my Alpha Legion lists have at 2500. All that honey adds up.

[Baluc]

And I am saying the list may indeed struggle due to being outnumbered. TS Crimson King lists have fewer guys and vehicles at 3K points than my Alpha Legion lists have at 2500. All that honey adds up.

 

Or... they just aren't very good lists. That is a possibility. 

[pompeyladbfp]

I dont think its over powered looking at somelegion/rites of war combos out there. Sekhmets are a good unit, but the tax is very fair (80pts) they are especially good in the crimson king RoW but not broken. The choose powers is not a biggy, as the two decks they can choose from are not the best in anyway (id rather have the rerolls any day!)

 

all in all a interesting army and one i have started (sold by metallic red!) going to do a term/sekhmet/vet force

[Mango Polo]

Sure nerf the Sekhmet a bit, but buff the Ammitara a bit :)

[Sentinel Guy]

I don't think they are that overpowered as all it takes is a single perils and your entire army could be pinned.  

[Gorgoff]

All it take is a 200-400 points allied detachment of SoS on the other side of the table and your 'top tier army' is wasted. ;)

[IronDrake28]

All it take is a 200-400 points allied detachment of SoS on the other side of the table and your 'top tier army' is wasted. ;)

Eh, they're kind of squishy. And that's 200-400pts you have to take away from your big guns.

[Gorgoff]

So, i could get a couple of units, which have the potential to kill the opposing psyker (units) with ease and all I have to do is make room for 300 points?

Damn, that's tough... ;)

 

Jokes aside I'd only do that if my opponent goes the dickroad with his Sons. They should use their powers and he should have some advantage by using his witchcraft (and his men). It's all a matter of the quantity.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Gorgoff

[Spiral]

So to get back on topic to actual tactica...How do people feel about the Rotor-Cannons vs Volkite Debate? My original plan was to back up some large tactical blobs using a large squad with Calivers, but it seems like people really like Asphyx loaded Rotor Cannons. Does anyone have any experience or a preference? 

[Baluc]

Rotor Cannons still suck. Which volkite did you have in mind?

[Spiral]

I was thinking of Calivers as they seem like a nice Balance of cost, range and power. I was originally considering Culiverns but they just seem ridiculously expensive, but I do like the range they offer. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by Spiral

[Charlo]

So to get back on topic to actual tactica...How do people feel about the Rotor-Cannons vs Volkite Debate? My original plan was to back up some large tactical blobs using a large squad with Calivers, but it seems like people really like Asphyx loaded Rotor Cannons. Does anyone have any experience or a preference? 

 

Rotor Cannons still suck. Which volkite did you have in mind?

 

Math-hammer ahoy!

 

Assuming a 10man squad with the "re-roll 1s" cult applied...

 

Unsaved wounds VS MEQ:

 

• Volkite Caliver - 4.8
• Rotor Cannon with A.Shells - 6.6

 

So actually the rotors edge out the volkite, for which I included deflag in my testing!

 

Plus they are sheer rule of cooool!

[NemoVonUtopia]

I like rotor cannons because they are cheaper and more mobile and can benefit more from misfortune. But volkite is still better vs vehicles and higher toughness.

[Baluc]

There are better sources of anti-marine if we are talking about support squads. The only Volkite I would consider are Chargers and Culverins. They do score, and are reasonably cheap though so if you are short on bodies for taking objectives it may be worth looking at.

 

Somehow I feel Seekers would still be better (target flexibility) if you have the fast slot open, and can spare the 75 points or so for a full 10 over the 10 support marines.

[Withershadow]

Shredding rotor cannons can put out a large volume of wounds, whether shooting at terminators or space marines. Add the option for re-rolls from Corvidae or mobility for reduced firepower, and they are more than good enough to justify building such a cool-looking unit.

[Baluc]

The main issue with Rotor cannons is the are always on a mediocre dice mechanic value. Because of the way distribution on a d6 works, 3's and 5's and 3's again in game results will swing wildly. Which is why if I'm buffing a model with free, or cheap rules I would go to an already solid unit to make them as close to certain as possible.

[Charlo]

The main issue with Rotor cannons is the are always on a mediocre dice mechanic value. Because of the way distribution on a d6 works, 3's and 5's and 3's again in game results will swing wildly. Which is why if I'm buffing a model with free, or cheap rules I would go to an already solid unit to make them as close to certain as possible.

 

I mean, the math is the math.

 

Rotors are technically better AND cooler considering we get an actual use for them for once!

[Jarkaira]

The main issue with Rotor cannons is the are always on a mediocre dice mechanic value. Because of the way distribution on a d6 works, 3's and 5's and 3's again in game results will swing wildly. Which is why if I'm buffing a model with free, or cheap rules I would go to an already solid unit to make them as close to certain as possible.

Do you mean you would rather take a single shot which makes a wound at 75% probability instead of three shots making a wound at 25% probability?

[Withershadow]

Reroll ones to hit =77.22% to hit.

 

Reroll to wound = 56.66% to wound.

 

Distribution favors the dice that can be rerolled. I suspect they would outperform Seekers against anything except their preferred enemy target.