[HH1.0] 30k Space Wolves tactics

[Coptimas]

There is clarification needed.

 

I was behind the argument that Space Wolves are not allowed to take certain Rites of War as it's clear RAW and seemed intended however the same wording that disallows Pride of the Legion also invalidates 'The Circle of the Varagyr' rule.

 

Yes the CotV lets Veterans and Varagyr be selected as compulsory troops but that still doesn't override the rule that says 'only Grey Slayers may be taken as compulsory troop choices in any Space Wolves detachment'.

 

That's clearly not intended as its a wasted rule for Russ but the RAW doesn't allow for anything else.

 

Shouldn't the RAW be taken in context though? Instinctively when you read the passage its meant to show that standard tactical, assault, breachers are not available to the wolves as compulsory troop choices, thats the clear meaning. This restricts certain RoW. But are we really to believe that taking our Primarch who allows other units to be compulsory troops choices does not have an impact on this? An if we are saying that Russ allows other troops to be compulsory, then that in turn leads to other RoW, but only when Russ is part of the detachment.

 

When we look at the AoD and compulsory troops for any army, it states "dark tone box means that a choice is compulsory". So only those units listed as troops are compulsory and allowed to be used as such. However several RoW and Primarchs alter this, giving access to other units as troops. Are we to believe that if the inclusion of the word "compulsory" in those RoW's or Primarchs specific upgrades is not there, then they too are not allowed to use said units as compulsory troops choices?

 

If the above is true then Justaerin can not be taken as compulsory troops when fielding Horus.

 

Sigismund cannot make Templars compulsory troops either.

 

Now I'm looking at this more closely I think quite a few people I know, myself included have fallen foul of a misread lol.

 

This still doesnt change the fact that Russ's rules specifically states "compulsory troops choice". However I'm gonna have to speak to some of the lads I play against regularly were Templars and Justaerin have been used and not a single compulsory troops choice is seen. My bad I guess :)

Edited February 7, 2017 by Coptimas

[Nova_chron]

I for one am very excited to start playing with these rules and find what works in my meta but luckily I can still run a tank heavy list

[Unknown Legionnaire]

It sure needs clarification from FW.

 

Though I still believe Grey Slayers are the default comp troops choice for SW, like Tacs or Breachers or Assault Marines are for other Legion lists.

 

And that the addition of certain RoW still allows for that instance to be changed, applying army rules fist and RoW effects second, thus enabling other units to fulfill comp troop choices when selected.

 

It's totally irrelevant whether I switch out Grey Slayers or Tacticals. Both are default comp troops and that fact can be altered by RoW in my humble opinion.

 

Just like Primarch's Chosen would overwrite the mandatory Praetor / Centurion by making Russ the compulsory HQ.

 

But that's just me and opinions on this vary wildly to say in the least.

[+Grimdark Prince Adam+]

Is it me or isn't it obvious that axe and sword having Specialist Weapon is clearly a typo?

 

1. In 40k they aren't "Specialist Weapon" and have the +1S as here, and have similar upgrade costs.

2. It makes no sense sword has the same cost as claw, as both have same stats and claw has shred. Without "Specialist Weapon" sword has +1At compared to claw, which makes perfect sense in this case.

3. It makes no sense for axe to have "Specialist Weapon", as then at +2S it has same cost as PF, which has in practice +4S, with same other stats. Without "Specialist Weapon" axe has +1At compared to PF, which again makes sense, as the player can choose which benefits of the chosen weapon are better. Otherwise PF is always the better choice.

 

If you guys agree, maybe haul the above reasoning to the guys at FW to FAQ/errata it, as there is absolutely NO sense in constructing such stats for the above weapons. Or maybe I'm making a mistake somewhere, please correct me where I'm wrong.

[grouj]

So, I need some advice. I want to run a blob of terminators with Russ and Hvarl.I plan on giving them a speaker and Spartners. My dilemma is as such: 5 dual power claws, 3 chainfists, 2 powerfists and 5 combiplasma. Or, 5 single claws, 3 chains, 2 fists and 10 combiplasma. I am leaning more towards the later since I can melt a squad on the delivery, but if I melt them completely then I am sitting in the open for a round. Thoughts?

[Runefyre]

I still think Varagyr need 2W. I'm spending a metric-load of points on dudes that will die to a lasgun plink. Happens to me all the time with regular terminators, and these guys cost almost twice as much.

 

But here's a nifty 2000 point list I've been brooding on. Pale Hunters RoW.

 

Red-blade (duh, hope he gets a bad-ass model)

 

Speaker of the Dead (no upgrades)

 

(2x) 20 dude grey-slayer squads (2x power weapons or combi-weapons, power fist, aa)

 

Varagyr squad (6 dudes, no upgrades, spartan DT, no upgrades)

 

Deathsword (no upgrades, phobos DT, no upgrades)

 

3x javelin land speeders (no upgrades, all separate slots)

 

The idea being if you are going second, you can outflank the majority of your army, and tank first turn shooting on a small wall of AV14. Otherwise it's balls to the wall running as fast as possible right at the throats of the enemy!

[Caillum]

I like the restrictions that Space Wolves have! Yes, Grey Slayer Packs are the only Troops without Support Squad, but they are versatile and cheap - many Legions would kill to have such quality Troops. They limit the way the army has to be constructed, leading to a better analysis of how to get the most out of the Legion. It also seems very thematic, as they really were a different beast.

 

After Alan Bligh's comment about the Space Wolves being very restrictive, I believe they are meant to be limited in the Rites of War they have access to. GSPs and the loss of 3 Consuls leads to the small list here:

- Orbital Assault

- Armoured Spearhead

- Angel's Wrath

- Pride of the Legion (Leman Russ only)

- Sky Hunter Phalanx

- Zone Mortalis Assault Force

- The Pale Hunters

- The Bloodied Claws

What is interesting is that 3/4 of the classic Rites are still available - these shouldn't be overlooked. "Primarch's Chosen" is a funny one, as while technically it isn't allowed, Leman Russ should definitely count as the required Praetor/Centurion (you're going to have to take Veterans as Troops to cover all the requirements though). Similarly, "Pride of the Legion" is completely legal as long as you field Leman Russ (with Veterans & Varagyr), but why take the Rite's negatives when he unlocks them anyway?

 

Speaking of "The Circle of the Varagyr"... this is how you change your army composition. Veterans and Varagyr as Troops, without the previously mentioned negatives from "Pride of the Legion", is awesomesauce. A good chunk of army lists out there run Veterans as Troops because they are so good! You're locked into taking the Primarch, but he is worth it.

 

And if you don't want to do the above, you still have the other Rites! "Orbital Assault" remains a solid choice. "Pale Hunters" allows all Allies & "Bloodied Claws" allows non-Legion Allies, helping cover the army's weaknesses, and they are very cool Rites of War. And I would love to see a Sky Hunter Phalanx army, with lots of howling Jetbikes and GSP's leaping out of Storm Eagles! :)

[TheWolfLord]

I'm not saying it was at all intended but the poor wording on our Legion rules invalidates all alternative troop options even from Circle of the Varagyr.

 

"Only Grey Slayers can be taken as compulsory troop choices in any Space Wolves detachment"

 

It really doesn't give us anywhere to go from a RAW standpoint. If we are saying that CotV lets us ignore this line then how is the same not true for Rites of War such as Pride of the Legion?

[Nova_chron]

If it wasn't for lack of many many drop pods I would be seriously thinking about orbital assault in games where I don't want tanks but that is basically never... bloodied claw and armored spearhead is most likely what I will run and I'll make some SA or mechanicum allies down the road to fill in gaps

[Baluc]

If it wasn't for lack of many many drop pods I would be seriously thinking about orbital assault in games where I don't want tanks but that is basically never... bloodied claw and armored spearhead is most likely what I will run and I'll make some SA or mechanicum allies down the road to fill in gaps

 

I'm considering Pale Hunter and SA allies to fill in the shooting gaps. No DDPs or Dreadclaws hurts my model collection. But I can always play OA in the future. SA are great allies because they can get Tanks in 3 slots troops, fast attack and heavy. The troops won't be scoring though so something to keep in mind.

 

Honestly, I'm not concerned with the viablity of Russ and CotV, I can't fit Russ into a list under 3k because of the absured HQ requirements. 

Edited February 7, 2017 by Baluc

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

How many points is a naked SW terminator ? Justerain were 75 points apiece when they first came out.

[Runefyre]

How many points is a naked SW terminator ? Justerain were 75 points apiece when they first came out.

42 ppm. Nothing compares the obscenely overpriced original justaerin, but their current iteration (when equipped with a power fist) is just 3 ppm more than a varagyr, but get +1W, furious charge(better than crushing charge), can be taken as a command squad (VERY useful in an overcrowded elites section), access to plasma blasters, and +1Ld.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If SW terms get 2W then every term unit should.

[Runefyre]

If SW terms get 2W then every term unit should.

I agree

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Cool beans brother. :)

[Nova_chron]

I'm fine with single wound terminators just let me take great Frost blades on them I want a unit of claymores and great axes

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I am hoping BA terms can take Blade of Perdition . I'd like to run a squad 10 strong.

[Runefyre]

I am hoping BA terms can take Blade of Perdition . I'd like to run a squad 10 strong.

that would be unspeakably strong lol. Kinda off-topic to.

 

 

But that's got me thinking, what shattered legion combos are there for the Wolves?

 

I'm hoping we can get a timely FAQ from FW regarding Varagyr wounds and Frost weapon profiles. Either make Frost swords rending, or take away specialist weapon.

[hammer grimblood]

 

I am hoping BA terms can take Blade of Perdition . I'd like to run a squad 10 strong.

that would be unspeakably strong lol. Kinda off-topic to.

 

 

But that's got me thinking, what shattered legion combos are there for the Wolves?

 

I'm hoping we can get a timely FAQ from FW regarding Varagyr wounds and Frost weapon profiles. Either make Frost swords rending, or take away specialist weapon.

 

Reading through the rules I agree about the Frost Swords. There is no point to take a sword over a claw ever, considering they're the same point cost. I'm not sold on Varagyr needing a second wound but it would be nice and in line with most of the specialist terminator units. I'd rather see a couple changes where Frost Axes aren't unwieldy or specialist weapons. Axes on Varagyr serve no purpose other than the rule of cool seeing as a free Powerfist does a better job. Give us Frost Axes as initiative and no longer a specialist weapon and I'll be over the moon.

 

Does anyone else think it's weird that a Huscarl cannot take a Power Weapon?

 

Also, was I the only one hoping for shields of some kind other than the combat shields? Something that screams "Shield Wall"!

[rendingon1+]

Does anyone else think it's weird that a Huscarl cannot take a Power Weapon?

He can - it's under "any model in the squad may... exchange their cc for a power weapon".

 

I envy you these Grey Slayers :(

Edited February 7, 2017 by rendingon1+

[Caillum]

Huscarls can take power weapons for 5 points - any model in a Grey Slayer Pack can. And combat shields are exactly what the Vikings/Romans/Greeks used to make shield walls!

 

I agree that frost blades are a bit lacklustre, although great frost blades are awesome.

 

I do think all Terminator units (including Legion Terminators) should have 2 Wounds, even if it means resetting the price of every one of them. But there's no point wishlisting for extra wounds. Varagyr stat-line is set people.

[hammer grimblood]

 

Does anyone else think it's weird that a Huscarl cannot take a Power Weapon?

He can - it's under "any model in the squad may... exchange their cc for a power weapon".

 

I envy you these Grey Slayers

 

D'oh! Totally missed that. Thanks!

[Baluc]

So lets assume that mostly running infantry is decent in Pale Hunter. What is a better bet for Anti-tank, Legion Dreads, Javs, or SA Leman Russ tank varients. 

[The Native]

I won't comment on SA allies, or any allies for that matter as I prefer to run a pure SW list, but at this stage I would consider Javelins to experiment with. Obviously they're fragile but bring much needed mobility to a SW army. Being able to Deep Strike or Outflank are also advantageous as well as being 50 points cheaper than a standard dread or 100 points cheaper than a contemptor. A downside being that they only number one per squadron. But what other FA option are worth considering?

[Purge the Daemon]

 

 

How many points is a naked SW terminator ? Justerain were 75 points apiece when they first came out.

42 ppm. Nothing compares the obscenely overpriced original justaerin, but their current iteration (when equipped with a power fist) is just 3 ppm more than a varagyr, but get +1W, furious charge(better than crushing charge), can be taken as a command squad (VERY useful in an overcrowded elites section), access to plasma blasters, and +1Ld.

Comparing 10 justaerin to 10 Varagyr armed with 2 chain fists 8 power fists and 10 combi weapons the justaerin cost 30 points more. But they gain a lot of benefit for 3ppm.