General Discussion Secundus

[bluntblade]

Well, mostly seers outside the Legions, or the sages of Madrigal.

[simison]

Ah, let the Traitors have their self-determination until their failure? Fair enough. I expect her to show up in the Legion Wars though.

 

As I mentioned in the Drowned thread, it occurs to me that I'm not aware of a single exemplary battle section that chooses the single large campaign over the three small ones. 

 

Canon-wise, it looks something like this:

Sons of Horus: 3 (Earned nickname of Luna Wolves, Horus saving the Emperor at Gorro, Horus showing cruelty) - intro 

World Eaters: 1 (Angron's first independent campaign) - no intro 

Emperor's Children: 3 (perfection in tactics, perfection in dueling, arrogance) - intro 

Death Guard: 1 (Mortarion's first independent campaign) - no intro 

 

So, from Book 1 Betrayal, we can see several patterns when it comes to writing exemplary battles. Intro paragraphs are used only when the 3-battle layout is used. When using a single massive campaign, it's typically to show that Legion's Primarch taking command for the first time. Furthermore, it's mostly used with Legions that are specialized in one set of tactics: Death Guard with their implacable advance and the World Eater's incredible aggression. Finally, the 3-battle set-up appears to not focus on different units as I think I suggested way back when, but rather focus on three different aspects/styles of the Legion as a whole. Or, maybe it's more of a narrative set-up with the emphasis on a three act structure that the SoH suggests. Massacre, as the first book showing Loyalists, should offer more illumination.

 

Iron Hands: 1 (Not Ferrus' first independent campaign) - no intro 

Night Lords: 3 (first? Terran terror campaign, masters of ambush tactics, the NL becoming extreme) - intro 

Salamanders: 1 (first campaign ever on Terra) - no intro 

Word Bearers: 3 (false faith destroyed, tactical use of symbolism, early sign of corruption) - intro 

 

Fun fact, remember the Salamanders' original paint scheme? It's mentioned that's what the proto-Legion is wearing in that campaign. Anyway, a new potential pattern in Massacre is that both Loyalist Legions are given the 1-campaign treatment. However, the pattern of assigning a 1-campaign layout is broken given that the Iron Hands should be known for their mastery of several different tactics/aspects, while the Word Bearers are primarily know about their weaponization of faith. Also destroyed is the notion that the 1-campaign set-ups are solely to show a Primarch in command for the first time. It doesn't say that this is Ferrus' first campaign, and Vulkan isn't actually in the Salamanders' massive campaign. What does Extermination show?

 

Imperial Fists: 3 (First sacrifice, Mastery of Void tactics, Set-up for Necromunda) - intro 

Alpha Legion: 2 (Willingness to think outside the box, the infamous argument between Al & Rob and example of complex planning) - no intro

Iron Warriors: 1 (Perturabo's first campaign) - no intro

Raven Guard: 3 (example of early RG's ruthlessness toward support units & decapitation strikes, liberation, assassination & retribution) - intro

 

 

Okay, apparently Warp gates are a popular choice for exemplary battles because both the IF and the EC feature one battle involving gates. Then the TS have their psuedo-gates in the Golden Apostles. And then the Alpha Legion seems to have broken all of the patterns. Still, we see a return to the first Primarch campaign again in Perturabo, and it is notable that both Loyalists are in the 3-battle layout in counter to Massacre's Loyalists. At this point, it feels like several battles are featured more so because of their fame than anything else. That includes the SoH's recording of Gorro, the 2nd AL battle, and the IF detailing Necromunda. This is also the last book to feature 4 Legions at a time. 

 

Ultramarines: 1 (Guilliman destroying a foe that had previously defeated the Ultramarines) - no intro

 

Other than its huge size, no real difference from past templates.

 

Retribution has no Legions to offer, which leaves Inferno. 

 

Space Wolves: 1 (Purge) - no intro

Thousand Sons: 3 (early use of divination, 60 warriors slaughtering Knight House with telekinesis, sign of Magnus' power and arrogance) - intro

 

This is all to say that the current exemplary battles featured in Insurrection is not up to standard. No BotL Legion is using the 1-campaign layout, and that needs to change. One pattern I can now clearly see is that whenever Loyalists and Traitor Legions are featured in the same book, they never share the same exemplary battle layout. If the Traitors are using the 3-battle set-up, then the Loyalists must use the 1-campaign layout. 

 

Of second note is the alliance chart. There has been some debate on how to handle the chart given that we have several faction-specific forces within the Mechanicum and the Imperial Army, such as the Abyssii, the Leonic Auxilia, and the Cognis. My answer is to ask how are the Solar Auxilia and the Legio Cybernetica treated in the alliance chart? If they are not given their own representation, then I say that we will not add in the BotL-equivalents. Instead, we will have to represent as best as we can through the current chart. 

 

Also regarding the chart, my current PDF still has the Jackels on it. This will need to be updated with the Steel Legion.

 

Third, Grifft, if you have the time, could you post the latest version of the PDF here on the forum?

 

Finally, as much as I hate to, the Drowned have shown me that I should have an official system regarding intermittent and absent activity from members. Here is the chart I'm considering:

 

1 month without any activity, posts or PMs: Declared Missing/MIA. At this point, if there is a faction in question, it is made open to the rest of the project. However, the original creator is allowed to return and resume control over their work.

 

6 months without any activity: Declared Lost/KIA. Even if the original creator returns, they have already forfeited their creator's rights due to their absence. If a faction is involved, it is made permanently available to anyone who would claim it or to the project itself, or it is eliminated.

 

If this is agreeable, this is what the list looks like currently.

 

The Missing

Generalripphook

Hesh Kadesh

Sete

 

The Lost

Depthcharge

Apothecary Meros

Praefectus Invictus

 

 

Three Legionnaires and three Auxilia at this point. 

[Nomus Sardauk]

The Missing

Generalripphook

Hesh Kadesh

Sete

 

The Lost

Depthcharge

Apothecary Meros

Praefectus Invictus

 

Three Legionnaires and three Auxilia at this point.

Drink deep of victory progress and remember the fallen.

[bluntblade]

Hmm. I wouldn't impose such hard rules when it comes to exemplary battles, but giving the Scions one huge exemplary could work. I have an idea for Qarith Prime, though that would involve some other Legions.

[Kelborn]

Jeez, what a post, Sim.

Long but decent.

 

Though I'd like to stick with 3 exemplary battles (as this would be easier for me to explain the changes of the Predators), I'm ok to do only one if needed. If so, I'd focus on a late GC battle in which they fight a chaos cult, etc. (originally my third battle).

 

Member rules seems hard but if we all agree on them, then it's fine. You can never predict the future, of course, but even if something of importance is distracting you, you are able to at least post an update of your situation within 6 months. Fair enough for me.

[simison]

I think it took me an hour to write it since I read or skimmed through every canon exemplary battle there is.

 

Anyway, whether or not the Predators will have to use 3 or 1 is under your influence to a degree. What book are the Predators planned for?

 

Also, I think it'd be fitting if the Suzerainty Legions have 2 exemplary battles, like the Alpha Legion, to show that they're operating on a different wavelength than Loyalists and Traitors.

[Kelborn]

Was just sayin'.

 

Good question. Think it was the third one.

[simison]

That's Emancipation that includes my Wardens and the Eagle Warriors. It'd be more than possible to have the Loyalists have the triple format.

[simison]

Happy Easter, everyone! He is risen!

[Kelborn]

What? The Emperor is back?

Curse you, 8th edition...

[Slips]

Happy Non-Religious, totally Imperial Truth Adherent holiday!

[simison]

I just want to say that holy crap the LA rules have really expanded/more complicated/more nuanced with the TS and the SW. 

[Raktra]

Let's be frank, Inferno is a mess.

[Chief Captain Redd]

I think they handled really well honestly, at least in regards to the two Legions. They created VERY unique armies, without a completely new army list, nor do either feel overwhelmingly powerful so far.

[Slips]

Its more the editing and proofreading being utter garbage rather than the balance and flavor of the armies therein.

[simison]

Its more the editing and proofreading being utter garbage rather than the balance and flavor of the armies therein.

 

So, I've heard about the tourists showing up in one of the pics, but what else is there?

[Chief Captain Redd]

Ahh, I just got it so I've only had time to look at the rules so far.

[bluntblade]

Well, I've seen plenty of stuff like "death throws" in Massacre.

[Slips]

 

Its more the editing and proofreading being utter garbage rather than the balance and flavor of the armies therein.

 

So, I've heard about the tourists showing up in one of the pics, but what else is there?

 

For one, Sekhmet Terminators can, per the Raw on their profile, have 2 Power Fists AND combi-weapon. "Any model in the squad may exchange their force weapon for a power fist with one of the following: Lightning Claw, Power Fist, Chain Fist."

 

Custodes jetbikes have a non-existent weapon (Illastus Bolt Cannon) and their upgrades are, per Raw, taken as a squadron-wide "swap" (Its debatable as to whether this is an additional weapon or a swap) AKA 25 points to give 3-9 jetbikes a Corvae Las-Pulser that shoots D3 Lascannon shots instead of 25pts each. The Sweeping Fire Special Rule also serves no purpose since they only have 1 shooting weapon. 

 

Magnus, with invisibility, is literally unhittable in CC or Shooting since he has a flat -1 to hit due to his armor and invis making the target only hittable on 6s.

 

Too, magnus can cast up to or greater than 18" Radius Novas at S:D due to Mind Wrath for...3-4 Warp Charge.

 

The Misericordia, outside of fluff descriptions, doesn't actually have a weapon profile. So the purpose it serves on custodes models as a piece of wargear is questionable.

 

The Custodes Achillus Dreadnought, with a spear, either turns all his attacks to S:D on the charge or only the singular attack that rolled a 6. The wording is ambiguous. "on a turn in which this model charges, any to hit rolls of a 6 means its attacks with this weapon are resolved as Destroyer hits." So, it can potentially 1 shot a Warlord Titan on the charge if you go by Raw.

 

The Custodes Shield Captain upgraded to a Tribune (gains Eternal Warrior and Fearless) can have a 3++ Re-rollable (Iron Halo + Familiar + Shield) with a -1 To-Hit penalty on attacks against him. He's harder to kill than Primarchs for ~250 points.

 

All Custodes Models are characters so you can perform some LoS shenanigans especially with their 3" Coherency.

 

The Space Wolves 1HQ per 1000 points is debatable as to whether or not it lets you bypass FoC limits.

 

There is literally no reason for any SW Characters who are eligible to do so to take any Frost Weapon than the Great Frost blade  because they gain next to no benefit for paying a premium over regular power weapon costs:

• Sword: +1S, Specialist Weapon (lose 1 attack in almost all scenarios)
• Axe: Nothing changes but gains Specialist Weapon (lose 1 attack in almost all scenarios)
• Claw: +1S nothing else changes; no reason to ever take the sword if the claw is literally the same but with Shred especially since they both cost the same in almost ever situation they're allowed.
• Great Frost Blade: Master-Crafted Death Guard Scythes.

 

To name just a few.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Slipstreams

[TheBlindPrimarch]

6 months without any activity: Declared Lost/KIA. Even if the original creator returns, they have already forfeited their creator's rights due to their absence. If a faction is involved, it is made permanently available to anyone who would claim it or to the project itself, or it is eliminated.

 

 

Ok, so since I think I'm one of the few in this project that has a lost Legion that isn't included in the BotL(I might be wrong) I'll just go ahead and ask...In the event that a Legion is eliminated, would the door open to new additions or would we see another team made Primarch and Legion like Nomus and the Steel Legion? I don't want to sound like I'm being opportunistic, but trying to get my Primarch/Legion into this project was what brought me here in the first place and I've always been a little disappointed that it didn't pan out. 

[simison]

Ah, fair points, Slips. A couple of those I had already discovered, but, stepping back, this really looks like the most error-ridden HH rulebook we've seen. Unfortunate.

 

Well, to be brutally honest, Blind, you're not the only one who was vastly frustrated with being unable to get your Legion in the line-up. Meros? If one were to check his records, his last post was in November, which puts him within the 6 months. However, when we restarted work on Book 2, we tried to reach out to him. Mikhal managed to get into contact and discovered that Meros was so frustrated by the election that he's flat out left the project. (Again, thanks Mikhal for letting me know.)

 

So, I can understand the frustration. But we've already shed the Legions that had a small enough footprint that it was safe to replace them without re-writing everything. There was talk about replacing the Drowned, but it was quickly decided that the Drowned have enough of a presence that we can replace them. The same status is true of all of the existing BotL Legions. All of them are now too intertwined with the universe. 

 

What I am open to is allowing someone else to claim an existing Legion for their own. Strictly speaking, Skal has two Legions and was open to handing one of them off to someone else. In five months, the Drowned might become open and so on. Outside of those opportunities, I ask for patience. While a new Legion is not in the cards, we will have dozens and dozens of openings for Orders when we reach the Scouring.

[TheBlindPrimarch]

Ah, shot down again...well, worry not great leader, Though I seem doomed to be eternally disappointed in my hopes of finding the Paladins a home I am far too invested in the BotL to simply pack up and quit.

[MikhalLeNoir]

at least you can always find a home amongst the ranks of the wardens or predators.

 

Maybe the powers of your primarch are technological constructed so he overcomes the pariah limitd soemhow.

 

I mean from their behavior they shout wardens of light

[Skalpynock]

The main idea is that in the event of my untimely demise, Thørn gets the Warbringers, and the Void Eagles are either disbanded, redistributed to the community, or taken over by whoever wants to seize them.

[simison]

Hesh has made a post. Therefore, I am removing him from the MIA list.

 

The Missing

Generalripphook

Hesh Kadesh

Sete