Angelus Speculation

[Urriak Urruk]

So I thought it was high time for a new thread for y'all to speculate (and wishlist) what's coming in the next HH Book, Angelus.

 

What it includes;

- Blood Angels

- Dark Angels

- Daemons

- Dark Mechenicum

- Night Lords

 

What it covers;

- Signus Prime

- Thramas Crusade

- Persecution of Sarum

- Siege of Baal

- Passage of the Angel of Death

 

Other stuff;

- Daemons get new units and characters

- Daemons mostly an expansion, 40k units will be usable in HH

- 15-20 books plan (holy heresy that's a lot)

- White Scars gotta wait

- Luther not in book

 

http://battlebunnies.blogspot.ca/

 

 

So... pretty crazy stuff!

 

Here's my two-cents. I'm thinking another box like Betrayal at Calth/Burning of Prospero will be dropping before Angelus does. They sell well (Calth did, I'm assuming Prospero did too) so I'm sure GW is keen on another one.

 

Obvious choices for a box is Night Lords vs. Dark Angels. Or maybe they'll do Blood Angels vs. Daemons.

 

From what I read it seems Dark Mechanicum aren't getting very much, just the ability to bind daemons to machines. Sarum is a Dark Forgeworld so there will be some exploring of fluff there.

 

I didn't even know Baal was under siege during the Heresy, maybe someone knows about that.

 

But "Passage of the Angel of Death?" Only thing that comes to mind is perhaps the Blood Angels carving a bloody path to Terra, leaving behind the DA and UM.

 

I don't know too much about the possibilities for new units. I don't know much about any of the three legions here, so I'm curious. Also, what new Daemon units could appear, or new Daemon characters? Ka'Bandha's probably getting rules, but the Bloodthirsters have so many models already.

 

Let me know, I want to hear some thoughts!

 

[Corswain]

A FW Ka'Bandha would be pretty awesome.

 

Yes, I think "Passage of the Angel of Death" is about The Angel's road to Terra. I'm guessing he just plunges head first into the ruinstorm, destroying any World Eaters and Word Bearers in his path.

 

If this is purely speculative then I'm thinking two unique units each.

For DA - Terminators with swords and volkites and a "Paladin" squad with two-handed broadswords.

For BA - Jump troops seems a fairly obvious choice but maybe a jetbike squad. Really dive into the air superiority theme.

 

Raldoran and Amit seem like the easy choice for BA Special Characters and I'm thinking Farith Redloss and Corswain for the DA.

[Aeternus]

For the NL (according to someone who asked Allen) they'll have a 'couple of new units and characters' including Atramentar and another member of the Kyroptera. Can't vouch for his veracity however.

 

I always assumed the Bloodthirster FW already did was Ka'Bandha, and with that still there I can't really see them doing another :/ 

[Sothalor]

I know this is a fairly minor point compared to the bigger pictures, but I really want to see Forgeworld explore the role of Destroyers and Moritats in the Blood Angels. We know Baal and its moons are irradiated wastelands, laid low by weapons from the Dark Age of Technology.

 

So how does Sanguinius react when the Legion based on his genes shows up with a division whose purpose is to use those very weapons that devastated his adopted homeworld?

[jaxom]

Based on HH6: Retribution, the Dark Angels and their Rites of War are probably going to be the focus over new units. The base Legiones Astartes rule they get is relatively weak, but the Ravenwing Protocol and Ironwing Protocol effectively makes your force very similar to White Scars or Iron Warriors/Hands, respectively; the First Legion was the template for the others and can still function appropriately in all forms of warfare. One area of speculation I have is with the Deathwing. Technically it could be represented by Pride of the Legion, but that leaves an underwhelming Legiones Astartes. So, would Dark Angels get better Terminators and Veterans to make up for it or a separate Deathwing Protocol? Will there be a mixed Wing Rite of War (for players that don't want to play a Wing Protocol) or something else that makes non-Wing forces more interesting than "We are good with swords"? Perhaps an expansion of Weapons of Old Night or rules for how Wing members in ordinary squads impact them (Stormwing member gets a boarding shield while the Deathwing Sergeant makes the squad Fearless and the squad's Ironwing Rhino driver can reroll difficult terrain, etc)?

 

I could see Paladin just being a name for Champion Consuls (with Calibanite warblade or great weapon) rather than a new unit. 

 

I'd expect The Lion and Corswain as special characters. Personally, I'd make The Lion a monster-killer with his special rules rather than an army buffer/debuffer or thresher of men. Fits with his background and helps distinguish him from Roboute rather than being Super-Genius MkII. Give him the Lion Sword and one of those narrative boxes like Ferrus Manus that he eventually loses it and for +x/-x points he has something else instead. Corswain is supposed to be a duelist so I'd imagine he'll be similar to Sigismund, but not quite as good. Probably a third special character new for the book rather than from Black Library.

 

The Dark Angel focus is on Thramas so I don't know if we'll see the rift weapon based equipment (shells for Fellblades, orbital strikes) from "Angels of Caliban" but it is definitely an option as the Dreadwing would have members in that sector. The Deathwing's Voted Lieutenant's grav-Land Raider was on Macragge, so it may be fodder for a later book, but who knows? Ditto for characters from "Unremembered Empire" and "Angels of Caliban/"

[Plaguecaster]

Using my daemons in 30k would be pretty awesome and would mean I'd have a 3rd Heresy army :D a full armylist would mean I could take them as allies for my death guard (just a shame my black shield Chymeriae can't take allies )

[Lord Asvaldir]

NLs dont need an update, but I must say it's a pleasant surprise to see NLs getting one. I expect atramentar will get their own rules which is pretty cool.

 

I expect the focus of the book will be BA/DA though, they really only got half their full rules in book 6 so it would be nice for them to get full range of units/characters/rites, plus maybe in the case of DA better LA rules which they could use.

[Corswain]

I'd love to see the Night-Lord-who-is-actually-a-Ravenguard from Price of Crows. Really intriguing character.

And Atramentar, obviously. :)

[Old-Four-Arms]

Whereas Signus Prime and the Thramas Crusade are canon HH battles with a direct link 

to either BA or DA, the other conflicts supposedly covered in Angelus are less so :

 

 

The Persecution of Sarum ; this implies that there will be some WE stuff as well,

 

However, Angron next turned his wrath on the Crimson Priests of Sarum, scouring the planet

and claiming it as his forward operating base for the next eleven years in a campaign against

the Crimson Priests' remaining empire in the sector

 

The fact that the Legio Audax was also present at Sarum, combined with this :

 

the Redjak Mechanicum emerged from their fortifications and speared the fleeing enemy with

barbed harpoons

 

...could mean that we'll see a Ursus Claw upgrade kit for the Warhound.

 

 

The Siege of Baal : HH Book 6 does state that the BA seneschal and garrison commander, Arkhad,

turned the planet into a major loyalist hub after the Dropsite Massacre. Should be interesting to see

how FW spins this into a new story.

 

 

The Passage of the Angel of Death : could indeed be about Sanguinus and the BA trying to reach

Terra, but two elements make me doubt that :

 

All the other conflicts/battles in Angelus (Thramas, Sarum, Baal) are set in the Ultima Segmentum,

not Solar.

 

It was stated at the Weekender that the HH cycle would be some 15-20 books in total, so IMHO

Sanguinius isn't at Terra yet...

 

 

Regards,

 

Old-Four-Arms

[Cloud Runner]

OK, pure speculation/wishlisting mode is GO!

 

I'm looking purely from a DA perspective (gotta love my boys in black) though this will also fit for BA as well I think:

 

Lion

Corswain

A N Other character (new for this book, not yet seen)

1 - 2 unique units

1 or 2 new rites

Updated armoury with a few unique toys - praying that they don't get lazy and use plasma as the hook...... give us rad, volkite, phosphex and void weapons!

 

 

I think the main focus on the DA (from the N&R thread/Facebook) seems to be how the legion is organised, and more overly how they are THE first, from which all others were based.

 

We could see a sort of jack of all trades, master of none style that presents them as the template - kinda like how UM are in 40k

 

 

 

It also makes me think they'll tie this into a plastic box release, featuring one of the campaigns in the black book (Calth and Prospero), which could go one of two ways:

 

 

Thramas - this could give us plastic mk2 and some other goodies, maybe plastic mk5 as well? Fits the marine on marine action we're used to and is useful for all like Calth

 

Signus - this could give us plastic mk6 for the BA and maybe some new daemons - doesn't fit all players, but then neither do the custodes/sisters in BoP

 

It'd make sense for them to release something to build on the excitement and increase the range of different armour marks available.

 

I'm sure that the campaigns and background are going to be full of flavour and, with the DA at least, probably create more questions than they answer!

[Balthamal]

If they were to do a fresh box to be released (roughly) the same time as Angelus I'd say bikes/jetbikes are a must include given the Ravenwing element and also if Jetbikes become a Blood Angel thing as well and now that Cataphractii and Tartaros have been done in plastic that frees up 2 sprues in the box. MKII would also be the most logical choice seeing as none of the Legions would have access to MKVI and MKV isn't as popular as II. Only downside being the need for assault marines (blood angels) and the space in the box

[StruManChu]

One of the tidbits out of the Weekender was actually that the plastic Heresy line is unlikely to be expanded further. Can't remember who said it or where, but it was mentioned several times by different people in the thread in N&R. I think this is a huge shame, if for no other reason than Assault squads/bike squads/jetbike squads are super expensive in resin, and FW are unlikely to bestow an Assault upgrade pack upon us.

 

But, them's the breaks.

 

Anyway, on topic - I'd love to see more about Destroyers in BA, as A Melancholic Sanguinity posted above. Baal and its post-apocalyptic tribes have always struck me as having a Mad Max kinda vibe, and I'd love to see that brought out a bit - the juxtaposition between the very regal, artistic Blood Angels and the tribes and culture from which they're born.

[m_r_parker]

A little tidbit that Alan Bligh gave us around Sarum was heavily indivcating the Dark Mechanicum in many ways. I can't quote his exact words, but there's something deep in the belly of Sarum, something dark and sinister. When it comes to the Dark Mechanicum, there isn't some switch threat is flicked and suddenly they're binding Daemons into machines and going all wibbly - in the majority of cases it's a very gradual process that starts with minor heretical points (using technology that has been banned, or retro fitting xenos technology that into existing Imperium entities) and gradually moving onto things like replacing standard fusion reactors with warp reactors - and then beginning to wonder why the machines are changing, developing personalities, continually rusting regardless of maintenance, or sprouting weird appendages and starting to act on their own. For other ForgeWorlds it could be turning back to practises and technologies that they used to practice, but had been censored by Mars. Sarum appears to be indicative of the latter than the former.

 

Yes the Night Lords will be getting new toys - as will most Legions as they progress through the series. There will be opportunities throughout the series to take additional looks to Legions that have been changing as the story progresses, and see how that impact has changed the dynamic of the Legion on the battlefield (as well as opportunities to introduce more characters / units / models).

 

This will very much be more along the lines of Conquest and Retribution in that there will be multiple small campaigns rather than a single over-arching conflict.

 

Don't expect too much on the Daemons. As Alan said 'a Bloodletter is the same in Fantasy as it is in 40k, as it will be in 30k', so don't expect massive army lists (I'm expecting them to reference the Daemons codex quite a bit), but this will be an opportunity to add more characters into the mix.

 

If people are expecting it to be released alongside a subsequent plastic box, I think they're going to be dissapointed. From what we've been told this book is still in its very early stages, the seminar contents were very light with not a lot of detail, and when questioned further about contents there's still a lot in the air. To try and get this turned around in 9 months just doesn't feel possible in my eyes, and frankly I'd say that even the next Weekender may just be out of reach (personal opinion).

[Indefragable]

I can't wait to see how they flesh out both Lion El'Jonson and Sanguinius both in fluff and crunch. 

 

Fluff:

I think in fact that the "Passage of the Angel of Death" may in fact be Blood Angels-related. A super weak reasoning would be that in the photo of the map of HH events in the Battle Bunnies link in the OP, it is the same color as The Battle of Signus Prime (which could mean absolutely nothing). A stronger reasoning would be that it would fill a key narrative gap in explaining how the IX Legion got all the way to Terra from Ultramar....when no one else was able to. The V Legion (White Scars) make it as well, but being elusive and hard to pin down (as allies as well as enemies) was kind of Khan's whole "thing." And several HH novels sort of indicate just how he managed to get to Terra despite crazy obstacles thrown in his way (I haven't read all of the HH novels, but that seems to be the summary of Path of Heaven). 

 

Sanguinius, however, was really in Horus' head. in one of the first HH novels Horus himself says (paraphasing, can't remember the exact line) that the Emperor should have made Sanguinius Warmaster. Other places (I think Fear to Tread, but can't remember exactly) there are also indications that Horus went out of his way to specifically tie up Sanguinius above all others. So my guess is that "The Passage of the Angel of Death" is Horus finding out that Sanguinius is in Ultramar and simultaneously sending a :cuss-load of forces to intercept/delay him while also starting the race to Terra to get there before any other Loyalist forces can arrive to reinforce Sol. 

 

Maybe the Ultramarines fight to create a breakthrough that allows the Blood Angels to slip through and race to Terra?  It would be :cuss :cuss to see Big S and his boys singlehandedly fight their way across the galaxy and still get to the party at the palace in time, but there's only so much awesome one Legion can have....and that's saved for the Siege itself. 

 

Alternatively, throw everything I just said out the window and it's about the Death Guard/Mortarion doing something, though that would not make sense if its in Angelus.

 

Crunch:

 

Hidden Content

DA:

• I imagine specifics around the Wings will crop up, especially the ones that are no longer around in 40k
• I also imagine that Rites of War and wargear will be tweaked/updated now that so many other forces' have been further fleshed out

 

BA:

• Rites of War and wargear fleshed out/updated
• According to reports from this latest 2017 HH weekender, FW mentioned that the IX Legion was created by the Emperor for "shock and awe," so I imagine their rules will get tweaked to reflect that more. I imagine they will be THE premier Deep Striking/Charging from Deep Strike force
• Sanguinary Guard: will definitely make an appearance. Probably getting the Custodes treatment (must be the gold!) where they are not drastically different from 40k, but altered to fit the 30k system more. Although I would LOVE for them to properly reflect their fluff! 
• Azkaellon: the herald of Sanguinius/leader of the Sanguinary Guard. Almost definitely getting a model/rules, especially since he has HH literature about him. If aligned with fluff, he is a master combatant, nearly unkillable due to his imacculate defense. The Immovable Object, if you will
• Amit: the "Flesh Tearer." Since he also features in HH stuff he will probably get a model/rules as well. Known for his unrelenting brawler-style of hand-to-hand combat. The Unstoppable Force in contrast to Azkaellon. 
• Raldoran: First Captain eventually the first Chapter Master of the Blood Angels. Supposedly chosen for his even temper, fluid style of command, and ability read the hearts and minds of those he commanded, I imagine he would be the strategic, buffing choice of the 3. Depending on what sources you read, he was supposed one of the greatest combatants of the Legiones Astartes, up there with Sigismund, Sevatar, and Abaddon.......but that may come from James Swallow stuff with seems to be kinda getting phased out? 

[Blindhamster]

but that may come from James Swallow stuff with seems to be kinda getting phased out?

 

Wasn't from fear to tread, the quote isn't a out raldoran, it's about someone else and says they're 'as skilled as' and lists off sigismund, raldoran, abaddon and some others.

 

Pretty sure it was an early book and the concept has been dropped though sadly.

 

I suspect we will see one black library character and a FW creates one.

[Xenith]

Could the passage of the angel of death be referring to the trip from signus prime through the storm to ultramar?

[Arkangilos]

Could the passage of the angel of death be referring to the trip from signus prime through the storm to ultramar?

Can't be, they went straight from Signus to Imperium Secundus, and the Passage is way after that.

[Withershadow]

A Blood Angels vs Daemons box would be crazy good for me. I'll take 3 please.

[Indefragable]

 

Could the passage of the angel of death be referring to the trip from signus prime through the storm to ultramar?

Can't be, they went straight from Signus to Imperium Secundus, and the Passage is way after that.

 

 

Not sure how much of this is nonpartisan speculation and how much of it is wishlisting, but my mental wanderings keep bringing me back to how big of a chunk of the timespan The Passage of the Angel of Death seems to take up. Combined with the fact that one great unanswered question is why the BA were at the Palace, but the other Imperium Secundus (UM/DA + various shattered legion remnants) were not, and this is what I keep coming back to:

 

***please note I have no insider information whatsoever and the following is entirely some mutant hybrid of speculation and wishlisting***

 

Hidden Content

 

The Passage of the Angel of Death is Sanguinius's breakthrough of the ruinstorm and traitor forces in order to beat Horus to Terra. This is where the intense connection between Horus and Sanguinius comes to the fore.

 

"Above all others, Horus feared Sanguinius."

 

Horus's preferred tactic was to go for the throat: concentrate overwhelming force on the enemy's central nervous system, brutally and decisively eliminating their command and control in a way as shocking as it was swift. Then mop up the bewildered resistance afterwards.

 

Sanguinius, above all others, represented hope. Even his winged form and angelic features, whether by designed by his creator or mutation by his environment, stirred a sort of race-memory in all humans. His very presence made them think the impossible was achievable, that myth could in fact be reality.

 

And this is why Horus wanted to stop Sanguinius from reaching Terra more than any others: he had to go for the throat of the Imperium's morale.

 

So....fluff wise, I can see any one/combination of the following:

-Horus sends a decapitation strike to Maccrage to swiftly end Sanguinius.

-A significant chunk the Traitor forces are broken off from the main forces closing in on the Sol system to delay/harry/prevent Big S's arrival

-Guilliman and the Lion recognize the "hope eternal" symbolism of Sanguinius and together the three brothers contact a plan to get him to Terra no matter the cost. Perhaps the DA and UM then start banging their shields, pounding their chests and calling out the traitors (maybe mooning, ala Braveheart)....just daring them to turn around and engage them, thus allowing the BA to slip around the flanks relatively unnoticed

 

In terms of "action scenes" I am thinking any one/combination of the following:

-Sanguinius vs other primarchs. The big ticket items. This "has" to happen for a few reasons.

• First and foremost, we've seen oh so little of him in the entire -in' HH series so far. What we have seen as been based on reputation and 3rd party chattering more than actually been shown how awesome he is
• From a narrative arc angle, Sanguinius "has" to be shown taking on (and beating?) other Primarchs. This sets up the significance of the events on the walls of the Imperial Palace and his showdown with Horus. By defeating other Primarchs, it shows both why Horus had to lower his void shields in order to lure Sanguinius/Emperor/Dorn away from the palace as well as show just how -ing powerful Horus had become, infused with the powers of all 4 chaos gods. "If the very best of us, who defeated x, y, z, a, b, and c in singular combat, could manage but a single chink in the armor of the arch-traitor, what hope do any of us have?"

-In terms of which primarchs Sang can fight....

• Sanguinius vs Angron: this is one that everyone would want to see. Angron is sort of the measuring post for how bad- a Primarch is, even if Angron kind of gets the Worf treatment. Even still, the "battle of the angry red angels" would be quite interesting. It would play into the whole decapitation strike thing too: Horus literally points to Maccrage and tells newly-ascended Daemon Angron to bring back Sanguinius's head. But then how would Angron get back in time for the siege of the palace?
• Sanguinius vs Horus, p1: this would be really interesting. The precursor to the final showdown. Not sure how it would logistically make sense or how I would feel about that.
• Sanguinius vs Fulgrim: the only other one that "naturally" leaps to mind. They both have a lot of similiarities in being the "pretty boy" charismatic ones with high-initiative, not to mention they both seem to have been Horus's closest confidantes. Fulgrim also has a confirmed primarch kill (and one of the toughest ones at that) so it would make a lot of narrative sense if Sang knocked the hair gel and cologne out of him...again, to make Horus's defeat of Sang that much more potent
• One thing I think everyone can agree on is that FW has done a great job with unpredictable matchups. We all knew Russ vs Magnus, Fulgrim vs Ferrus Manus and the like would happen, but things like Khan vs Mortarion, Dorn vs Alpharius, Curze vs the Lion AND Guilliman, etc....have been some of the best parts of the series. In that vain:
• Sanguinius vs Mortarion: this one would be interesting and perhaps explain a lot about Mortarion. Mortarion is sent to stop Sanguinius (if he's not on the other side of the galaxy already messing with Khan still). We've been shown just how unkillable Mortarion is, so narratively speaking, having Sang wipe the floor with him would be the "oh, SNAP!" moment Big S has rightfully deserved all this time. Mortarion than gets so pissed off at what happens, he reaches out to the warp to race back to Terra in time...and that's when the whole Nurgle thing happens. (I may be confusing timelines here, but this is all speculation and theory so bear with me)
• Sanguinius vs Perturabo?
• Curze is not an option (spoiler below)
• Lorgar and Alpharius/Omegon kind of have reputations as not being in the top end of the individual combatant spectrum (whether fair or not), so that would in some ways defeat the narrative purpose of the fights.
• I have a lot of trouble seeing Sanguinius and Magnus going at it....partially because how would they fight? Psychic powers? and partially because I feel that they would kind of take pity on each other

 

-Blood Angels vs other legions: basically everything I mentioned above about Sanguinius, but expanded into the IX Legion. The Blood Angels have been seen shockingly few times in the entire 40+ book HH series so far. We need to see in glorious detail how exactly they fight when determined and the nature of their character.

 

Granted, the Siege of Terra will provide plenty of opportunity for the BA/Sang to shine, but it is frankly too big of a deal to focus on on the BA. There has to be some pages dedicated to the IF, WS, Custodes, Malcador, Titans, Navy, and maybe just maybe a few normal 'umies holding the line as well. So for that reason alone "Passage" needs to be the love song to the BA.

 

 

Spoiler from Pharos alluded to:

Apparently even in Pharos he as the opportunity to fight Curze mano-e-mano, but both decline. Curze, because he knows he can't beat Big S. Sanguinius because he has pity on Curze and knows he's going to get killed anyways....which is kind of awesome, mind you, but again it's being told rather than being shown

 

Note: I have ordered Pharos but not actually read it for myself yet

 

 

#snowdayspeculation #sanguiniustimetoshine

Edited February 9, 2017 by Indefragable

[b1soul]

About Curze vs. Sang...Curze thinks he's better at combat.

 

The opinion of a madman...but it still kinda undercuts Sang's supposedly special awesomeness.

 

The battle ends in a draw because of each side's precognition...but it's worth noting that Curze is power armoured whereas IIRC, Sanguinius is essentially in his underwear

[Urriak Urruk]

I'd definitely like to see Sanguinius fight another Primarch en route to Terra. Has Perturabo ever fought another Primarch face-to-face?

[Black Cohort]

I would think the dark angels would get a unique sword armed terminator unit, some kind of elite bike/ jetbike unit and a unit with a bunch of weird rare wargear that only the first legion ever got. Blood angels should have sanguinary guard and a couple other units, but so little has been said about 30k blood angels that it is hard to say what else.

[Plaguecaster]

A Blood Angels vs Daemons box would be crazy good for me. I'll take 3 please.

I'd take 10 :D

[Indefragable]

About Curze vs. Sang...Curze thinks he's better at combat.

 

The opinion of a madman...but it still kinda undercuts Sang's supposedly special awesomeness.

 

The battle ends in a draw because of each side's precognition...but it's worth noting that Curze is power armoured whereas IIRC, Sanguinius is essentially in his underwear

Ah ok. Thanks for the corrections. From what I heard of that scene it was my motivation to get the book!

 

And not trying to Mary Sue Sanguinius too much. Rather, from a narrative standpoint--and the fact they seem to have deliberately held him back quite a bit--he pretty much has to kick major :cuss otherwise....whats the point?

[Arkangilos]

Yeah, Sanguinius has been given a steep reputation to live up to, and we haven't even seen anything other than, "this Primarch that can see the future somehow managed to fight Sanguinius as an equal because he can see the future, but cannot fight off any of the other loyalists Primarchs." So are you saying to me that his precognition only works against Sang?

 

I will say that I do love the dialogue between them, though.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Arkangilos