8th Edition Rumours

[Skerr]

Man the marine profile seems so long ago I had forgotten that. Thanks for the reminder.

 

And in just got some 1000 sons rhino doors a month ago but passed on the LR doors...

 

Looks like i need to place a FW order, heh heh

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm now anxious to see what the reaper's profile is going to be like.  If it's a straight conversion -- say, 36" S7 AP-1 Heavy 4 -- it becomes a pretty impressive weapon.

[adreal]

New termie kit?? We just one with betrayal at Calth.. .

 

I kid, I know we don't have rules for cataphractii, but it's still such a good looking armour you can use it without rules, and it's dead easy to convert them to have combi melta/plasma/flamer

[Kilofix]

Mmmmm.... Chaos Terminator Combi-Melta / Combi-Plasma / Reaper AC. I feel the warp overtaking me.....

[Prot]

Actually I use the Cataphractii for my Thousand Sons Sorc models. You end up with enough bits from Scarab Occult Termies to kit bash with the BoP ones. It does make me very curious about changing weapons on the ICs to Combi weapons now with the good news.

 

I think Termies are going to be good, but not great. Don't forget a simple Heavy Bolter Razorback might take care of a terminator easier now. I think the whole game seems to be moving towards a very high damage model and I think this will balance out the Termie rules we see as 'survivable' with our own 7 ed background

 

I wish I knew more of the invulnerable saves and costs. Combis sound so good though it feels like the Termies will actually be capable of suiting almost any role. How crazy is that?

[Vanger]

I think Chaos Terminators will be pretty durable and versatile in this edition. Deep Strike being mor reliable, 2 wounds having access to twin linked bolters. And I think all their melee options will make sense too once we get a peek at those rules. I mean with charging units hitting first and insted of AP we get a save reduction, they will be choppy as well.

 

Heavy weapon will still blast them to bits, but that's what it's supposed to do :D

[Vanger]

I'm kinda iffy on the ordinance. The problem I get from it is that if I understand it correctly, you either hit one unit, or no units. Which is basically bad for artillery. If I remember templates correctly, you could hit multiple units at the same time, but only the models that were "under" the template were affected. Now, you roll to hit the one unit you targeted, and then you roll to see how many hits you land? Or something like that. But no matter how many hits/wounds you generate, they only go against the one unit.

 

We haven't seen any rules on artillery specificaly. My guess is that they will have entirely seperate rules from regular cannons (indirect fire, no cover save, barrage, etc).

 

And with the new rules, I like the idea of a Defiler, with it's battle cannon and TL Lascannon. Or even with a TL Reaper autocannon.

[ChazSexington]

I'm generally positive, but with the reintroduction of armour save modifiers, Terminators are never gonna be rolling on a 2+. 2 Wounds help, but I have at least some faith in the playtesters!

[Panzer]

I'm generally positive, but with the reintroduction of armour save modifiers, Terminators are never gonna be rolling on a 2+. 2 Wounds help, but I have at least some faith in the playtesters!

That's simply not true.

Every former AP5 or worse weapon we've seen so far has AP- in 8th. On the plus side former AP2 weapons are only AP-3 leaving them still with a 5+ armor save. And don't forget that cover improves the armor save as well.

[HeresyBeliever]

 

I'm generally positive, but with the reintroduction of armour save modifiers, Terminators are never gonna be rolling on a 2+. 2 Wounds help, but I have at least some faith in the playtesters!

That's simply not true.

Every former AP5 or worse weapon we've seen so far has AP- in 8th. On the plus side former AP2 weapons are only AP-3 leaving them still with a 5+ armor save. And don't forget that cover improves the armor save as well.

 

We don't know how cover will work. my guess is cover will effect the to hit rule. which in theory it should as its harder to hit someone in cover. 

[Panzer]

 

 

I'm generally positive, but with the reintroduction of armour save modifiers, Terminators are never gonna be rolling on a 2+. 2 Wounds help, but I have at least some faith in the playtesters!

That's simply not true.

Every former AP5 or worse weapon we've seen so far has AP- in 8th. On the plus side former AP2 weapons are only AP-3 leaving them still with a 5+ armor save. And don't forget that cover improves the armor save as well.

 

We don't know how cover will work. my guess is cover will effect the to hit rule. which in theory it should as its harder to hit someone in cover. 

 

We do know how cover works. They already confirmed that cover improves the armor save. There are things that give a to-hit modifier like smoke screens but ordinary cover improves the armor save.

[WarriorFish]

This is good news, as aside from Termies needing some love I plan to get use a few :P But as mentioned all can easily be for nought if the point costs are amiss, so save the party poppers until then ;)

[ChazSexington]

 

I'm generally positive, but with the reintroduction of armour save modifiers, Terminators are never gonna be rolling on a 2+. 2 Wounds help, but I have at least some faith in the playtesters!

That's simply not true.

Every former AP5 or worse weapon we've seen so far has AP- in 8th. On the plus side former AP2 weapons are only AP-3 leaving them still with a 5+ armor save. And don't forget that cover improves the armor save as well.

 

 

Alright, if you decide to fire at termies with lasguns, yes. But nobody did that before, and certainly won't now. You carpet bombed them with AP2 in 7th, and due to most special weapons having some Armour Save modifier and everyone having access to split fire, you won't be rolling 2+ (unless your opponent is desperate). 

 

It's the 2 Wounds that I think makes them tougher this edition, and although the changes to armour saves and weapons help, all non-AP2 weapons with AP suddenly got a lot more effective at murdering termies. They're stronger (because let's face it, they were awful), but they're hardly 3+ on 2D6, which is what I think should be done to give them that feel of invulnerability.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

In case it not already said.  40k facebook page, point out Tanks also split fire.

 

Pretty much, just give me 8th ed rule now.  Like everything I've seen so far & if we can assault out tanks, this is going to be the perefect version Warhammer 40,000 for me.

[Panzer]

I'm generally positive, but with the reintroduction of armour save modifiers, Terminators are never gonna be rolling on a 2+. 2 Wounds help, but I have at least some faith in the playtesters!

That's simply not true.

Every former AP5 or worse weapon we've seen so far has AP- in 8th. On the plus side former AP2 weapons are only AP-3 leaving them still with a 5+ armor save. And don't forget that cover improves the armor save as well.

Alright, if you decide to fire at termies with lasguns, yes. But nobody did that before, and certainly won't now. You carpet bombed them with AP2 in 7th, and due to most special weapons having some Armour Save modifier and everyone having access to split fire, you won't be rolling 2+ (unless your opponent is desperate).

It's the 2 Wounds that I think makes them tougher this edition, and although the changes to armour saves and weapons help, all non-AP2 weapons with AP suddenly got a lot more effective at murdering termies. They're stronger (because let's face it, they were awful), but they're hardly 3+ on 2D6, which is what I think should be done to give them that feel of invulnerability.

"nobody did that" ... yeah sure. Because weight of fire was never a viable way of getting rid of Termis.

And you completely ignored the Cover thing. So yeah while they are slightly less durable against former AP3-4 weapons on a pure AP basis, they will be more durable against former AP2 weapons. Plus keep in mind that Plasma etc. will wound them on 3+ instead of 2+ in 8th.

The 2 wounds are a big deal for sure but the other factors play into their new improved durability as well.

Would make a 3+ on 2d6 them more durable? Heck yes. Would that be a viable mechanic in regular 40k? No, it would be a pain in the to roll just like a unit full of mastercrafted weapons in the current edition. The 3+ on 2d6 works in small skirmish games like SW:A but not in regular 40k.

[Vanger]

 

 

I'm generally positive, but with the reintroduction of armour save modifiers, Terminators are never gonna be rolling on a 2+. 2 Wounds help, but I have at least some faith in the playtesters!

That's simply not true.

Every former AP5 or worse weapon we've seen so far has AP- in 8th. On the plus side former AP2 weapons are only AP-3 leaving them still with a 5+ armor save. And don't forget that cover improves the armor save as well.

 

 

Alright, if you decide to fire at termies with lasguns, yes. But nobody did that before, and certainly won't now. You carpet bombed them with AP2 in 7th, and due to most special weapons having some Armour Save modifier and everyone having access to split fire, you won't be rolling 2+ (unless your opponent is desperate). 

 

It's the 2 Wounds that I think makes them tougher this edition, and although the changes to armour saves and weapons help, all non-AP2 weapons with AP suddenly got a lot more effective at murdering termies. They're stronger (because let's face it, they were awful), but they're hardly 3+ on 2D6, which is what I think should be done to give them that feel of invulnerability.

 

 

Your post gives me the impression as if terminators often had the opportunity to use their armour save :D Spamming AP2 weapons was the norm since 3rd edition. Or volume of fire, to force failed saves. And grav in 7th. But let's not forget the new to wound rules, that most weapons (plasme, scatter laser, etc) now only wound them on a 3+ instead of 2+. Also most heavy weapons fire with -1BS on the move, termies have 2 wounds now and we don't have any info on how invulnerable saves are supposed to work or how those interact with cover.

 

Anyway my impression is that they gained more than they lost.

[ChazSexington]

I'm generally positive, but with the reintroduction of armour save modifiers, Terminators are never gonna be rolling on a 2+. 2 Wounds help, but I have at least some faith in the playtesters!

That's simply not true.

Every former AP5 or worse weapon we've seen so far has AP- in 8th. On the plus side former AP2 weapons are only AP-3 leaving them still with a 5+ armor save. And don't forget that cover improves the armor save as well.

Alright, if you decide to fire at termies with lasguns, yes. But nobody did that before, and certainly won't now. You carpet bombed them with AP2 in 7th, and due to most special weapons having some Armour Save modifier and everyone having access to split fire, you won't be rolling 2+ (unless your opponent is desperate).

It's the 2 Wounds that I think makes them tougher this edition, and although the changes to armour saves and weapons help, all non-AP2 weapons with AP suddenly got a lot more effective at murdering termies. They're stronger (because let's face it, they were awful), but they're hardly 3+ on 2D6, which is what I think should be done to give them that feel of invulnerability.

"nobody did that" ... yeah sure. Because weight of fire was never a viable way of getting rid of Termis.

And you completely ignored the Cover thing. So yeah while they are slightly less durable against former AP3-4 weapons on a pure AP basis, they will be more durable against former AP2 weapons. Plus keep in mind that Plasma etc. will wound them on 3+ instead of 2+ in 8th.

The 2 wounds are a big deal for sure but the other factors play into their new improved durability as well.

Would make a 3+ on 2d6 them more durable? Heck yes. Would that be a viable mechanic in regular 40k? No, it would be a pain in the to roll just like a unit full of mastercrafted weapons in the current edition. The 3+ on 2d6 works in small skirmish games like SW:A but not in regular 40k.

Lasgun fire to get rid of termies was/is incredibly inefficient. On average, 36 shots per dead termie. That's ~175 points of Guardsmen to nail a single terminator.

Yes, cover will help, but then you're footslogging or Deep Striking them into difficult terrain. Dakka termies are better now, granted.

The 3+ on 2D6 is old wh40k, not SW:A. 2+ is not a terribly reliable save once it gets modified. Even a single point difference doubles the amount of dead termies.

But again, I have some faith in the playtesters. I hope they've given them the invulnerable feel, and not just balanced them for a specific point cost.

Your post gives me the impression as if terminators often had the opportunity to use their armour save Spamming AP2 weapons was the norm since 3rd edition. Or volume of fire, to force failed saves. And grav in 7th. But let's not forget the new to wound rules, that most weapons (plasme, scatter laser, etc) now only wound them on a 3+ instead of 2+. Also most heavy weapons fire with -1BS on the move, termies have 2 wounds now and we don't have any info on how invulnerable saves are supposed to work or how those interact with cover.

Anyway my impression is that they gained more than they lost.

I must be unclear - Termies never got to use armour saves in my area! And I definitely agree with them gaining more than they lost, just that the 2 wounds is the major upside.

[Panzer]

I'm generally positive, but with the reintroduction of armour save modifiers, Terminators are never gonna be rolling on a 2+. 2 Wounds help, but I have at least some faith in the playtesters!

That's simply not true.

Every former AP5 or worse weapon we've seen so far has AP- in 8th. On the plus side former AP2 weapons are only AP-3 leaving them still with a 5+ armor save. And don't forget that cover improves the armor save as well.

Alright, if you decide to fire at termies with lasguns, yes. But nobody did that before, and certainly won't now. You carpet bombed them with AP2 in 7th, and due to most special weapons having some Armour Save modifier and everyone having access to split fire, you won't be rolling 2+ (unless your opponent is desperate).

It's the 2 Wounds that I think makes them tougher this edition, and although the changes to armour saves and weapons help, all non-AP2 weapons with AP suddenly got a lot more effective at murdering termies. They're stronger (because let's face it, they were awful), but they're hardly 3+ on 2D6, which is what I think should be done to give them that feel of invulnerability.

"nobody did that" ... yeah sure. Because weight of fire was never a viable way of getting rid of Termis.

And you completely ignored the Cover thing. So yeah while they are slightly less durable against former AP3-4 weapons on a pure AP basis, they will be more durable against former AP2 weapons. Plus keep in mind that Plasma etc. will wound them on 3+ instead of 2+ in 8th.

The 2 wounds are a big deal for sure but the other factors play into their new improved durability as well.

Would make a 3+ on 2d6 them more durable? Heck yes. Would that be a viable mechanic in regular 40k? No, it would be a pain in the to roll just like a unit full of mastercrafted weapons in the current edition. The 3+ on 2d6 works in small skirmish games like SW:A but not in regular 40k.

Lasgun fire to get rid of termies was/is incredibly inefficient. On average, 36 shots per dead termie. That's ~175 points of Guardsmen to nail a single terminator.

Yes, cover will help, but then you're footslogging or Deep Striking them into difficult terrain. Dakka termies are better now, granted.

The 3+ on 2D6 is old wh40k, not SW:A. 2+ is not a terribly reliable save once it gets modified. Even a single point difference doubles the amount of dead termies.

But again, I have some faith in the playtesters. I hope they've given them the invulnerable feel, and not just balanced them for a specific point cost.

I'm not necessarily talking about Lasgun fire but if you want to stick to just that example for a basic weapon then sure go ahead. It's inefficient yes, but efficient enough to make Terminators mostly unviable currently. Yes the amount of AP2 weapons increased a lot but they were never needed to deal with Terminators in the long run.

I know 3+ on 2d6 is old wh40k. That's where Necromunda and SW:A got their rules from. And it was as bad back then as it would be now. It's a bad mechanic that shouldn't ever come back for large scale games no matter how durable it would make them.

[ChazSexington]

I'm generally positive, but with the reintroduction of armour save modifiers, Terminators are never gonna be rolling on a 2+. 2 Wounds help, but I have at least some faith in the playtesters!

That's simply not true.

Every former AP5 or worse weapon we've seen so far has AP- in 8th. On the plus side former AP2 weapons are only AP-3 leaving them still with a 5+ armor save. And don't forget that cover improves the armor save as well.

Alright, if you decide to fire at termies with lasguns, yes. But nobody did that before, and certainly won't now. You carpet bombed them with AP2 in 7th, and due to most special weapons having some Armour Save modifier and everyone having access to split fire, you won't be rolling 2+ (unless your opponent is desperate).

It's the 2 Wounds that I think makes them tougher this edition, and although the changes to armour saves and weapons help, all non-AP2 weapons with AP suddenly got a lot more effective at murdering termies. They're stronger (because let's face it, they were awful), but they're hardly 3+ on 2D6, which is what I think should be done to give them that feel of invulnerability.

"nobody did that" ... yeah sure. Because weight of fire was never a viable way of getting rid of Termis.

And you completely ignored the Cover thing. So yeah while they are slightly less durable against former AP3-4 weapons on a pure AP basis, they will be more durable against former AP2 weapons. Plus keep in mind that Plasma etc. will wound them on 3+ instead of 2+ in 8th.

The 2 wounds are a big deal for sure but the other factors play into their new improved durability as well.

Would make a 3+ on 2d6 them more durable? Heck yes. Would that be a viable mechanic in regular 40k? No, it would be a pain in the to roll just like a unit full of mastercrafted weapons in the current edition. The 3+ on 2d6 works in small skirmish games like SW:A but not in regular 40k.

Lasgun fire to get rid of termies was/is incredibly inefficient. On average, 36 shots per dead termie. That's ~175 points of Guardsmen to nail a single terminator.

Yes, cover will help, but then you're footslogging or Deep Striking them into difficult terrain. Dakka termies are better now, granted.

The 3+ on 2D6 is old wh40k, not SW:A. 2+ is not a terribly reliable save once it gets modified. Even a single point difference doubles the amount of dead termies.

But again, I have some faith in the playtesters. I hope they've given them the invulnerable feel, and not just balanced them for a specific point cost.

I'm not necessarily talking about Lasgun fire but if you want to stick to just that example for a basic weapon then sure go ahead. It's inefficient yes, but efficient enough to make Terminators mostly unviable currently. Yes the amount of AP2 weapons increased a lot but they were never needed to deal with Terminators in the long run.

I know 3+ on 2d6 is old wh40k. That's where Necromunda and SW:A got their rules from. And it was as bad back then as it would be now. It's a bad mechanic that shouldn't ever come back for large scale games no matter how durable it would make them.

Alright, Space Marine bolter fire. 18 bolter shots, on average. ~252 points of SM, on average.

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

 

And Occult Termis getting 2 shots per guy with up to 4 shots when in RFR seems very nice. Now they might actually kill something in the shooting phase! Here's to hoping that their close combat weapons won't suck...!

 

I mean looking at it logically you are sitting at combi-bolters with a good rend value, missile and reapers with currently unknown statlines, and power swords which we can presume are -2 to saves. 

 

And now that Scarab Occult are 2 wounds each (sargent value is unknown as he is 2 wounds in 7th) we can assume they will be overall better then 8th, and the sargent isnt just a fancy battery anymore.  Lookin good for us even *if* the point costs dont change much. 

 

This is of course low-balling my estimation so I can hopefully be gob-smackingly surprised when they turn out awesome :p 

 

Gw is aware of Rubrics, so we shall find out very soon just what this awareness means to us on the table.......

[Sonoftherubric21]

We also dont know whats going on with terminator armor in the new edition beyond 2 wounds. Theres a TON of unknowns at the moment. 

[Panzer]

I'm generally positive, but with the reintroduction of armour save modifiers, Terminators are never gonna be rolling on a 2+. 2 Wounds help, but I have at least some faith in the playtesters!

That's simply not true.

Every former AP5 or worse weapon we've seen so far has AP- in 8th. On the plus side former AP2 weapons are only AP-3 leaving them still with a 5+ armor save. And don't forget that cover improves the armor save as well.

Alright, if you decide to fire at termies with lasguns, yes. But nobody did that before, and certainly won't now. You carpet bombed them with AP2 in 7th, and due to most special weapons having some Armour Save modifier and everyone having access to split fire, you won't be rolling 2+ (unless your opponent is desperate).

It's the 2 Wounds that I think makes them tougher this edition, and although the changes to armour saves and weapons help, all non-AP2 weapons with AP suddenly got a lot more effective at murdering termies. They're stronger (because let's face it, they were awful), but they're hardly 3+ on 2D6, which is what I think should be done to give them that feel of invulnerability.

"nobody did that" ... yeah sure. Because weight of fire was never a viable way of getting rid of Termis.

And you completely ignored the Cover thing. So yeah while they are slightly less durable against former AP3-4 weapons on a pure AP basis, they will be more durable against former AP2 weapons. Plus keep in mind that Plasma etc. will wound them on 3+ instead of 2+ in 8th.

The 2 wounds are a big deal for sure but the other factors play into their new improved durability as well.

Would make a 3+ on 2d6 them more durable? Heck yes. Would that be a viable mechanic in regular 40k? No, it would be a pain in the to roll just like a unit full of mastercrafted weapons in the current edition. The 3+ on 2d6 works in small skirmish games like SW:A but not in regular 40k.

Lasgun fire to get rid of termies was/is incredibly inefficient. On average, 36 shots per dead termie. That's ~175 points of Guardsmen to nail a single terminator.

Yes, cover will help, but then you're footslogging or Deep Striking them into difficult terrain. Dakka termies are better now, granted.

The 3+ on 2D6 is old wh40k, not SW:A. 2+ is not a terribly reliable save once it gets modified. Even a single point difference doubles the amount of dead termies.

But again, I have some faith in the playtesters. I hope they've given them the invulnerable feel, and not just balanced them for a specific point cost.

I'm not necessarily talking about Lasgun fire but if you want to stick to just that example for a basic weapon then sure go ahead. It's inefficient yes, but efficient enough to make Terminators mostly unviable currently. Yes the amount of AP2 weapons increased a lot but they were never needed to deal with Terminators in the long run.

I know 3+ on 2d6 is old wh40k. That's where Necromunda and SW:A got their rules from. And it was as bad back then as it would be now. It's a bad mechanic that shouldn't ever come back for large scale games no matter how durable it would make them.

Alright, Space Marine bolter fire. 18 bolter shots, on average. 252 points of ~SM, on average.

And about 50-80 points cheaper for actual shooty units with just their basic weaponry. I never said it's ideal, but it was viable. Basic weaponry is nothing special as the name says. You have it because it's just there. It has no special task in your army. So unless there is a more juicy target (mean special weapon in a tac squad, rear armor of some vehicle, a unit on an objective) it was perfectly fine to chipp away on a Terminator unit with those.

Then we have medium weapons where most will have a -1 modifier and some a -2 modifier. The former will be easily dealt with by being in cover (which is not hard at all if it's similar to the current rules) and the latter would still be on a 3+. There we notice the first time they might not have a 2+ save unless they are out in the open.

Heavy weapons are a whole different topic. Plasma and Lascannons reduce them to an armor save that equals their current invul save. 4+ if they are in cover. 3+ if there's something like hard cover in 8th, so perfect for shooty Terminators.

However Lascannons will have a whole different target priority in 8th due their multi-damage profile and the increased wound pool of MCs and vehicles i assume.

I mean I don't disagree with you that 2 wounds is the best thing that happened for Termiantors. It was long overdue. But saying they will never have a 2+ save is just wrong. Overall we can say that the survivability of Terminators doubled with those changes unless they get shot at with the most devastating weapons.

We also dont know whats going on with terminator armor in the new edition beyond 2 wounds. Theres a TON of unknowns at the moment.

And the 2+ armor. The only really interesting thing that's left to know is whether they keep their invul save and how it'll work in 8th. ;)

[ChazSexington]

I'm generally positive, but with the reintroduction of armour save modifiers, Terminators are never gonna be rolling on a 2+. 2 Wounds help, but I have at least some faith in the playtesters!

That's simply not true.

Every former AP5 or worse weapon we've seen so far has AP- in 8th. On the plus side former AP2 weapons are only AP-3 leaving them still with a 5+ armor save. And don't forget that cover improves the armor save as well.

Alright, if you decide to fire at termies with lasguns, yes. But nobody did that before, and certainly won't now. You carpet bombed them with AP2 in 7th, and due to most special weapons having some Armour Save modifier and everyone having access to split fire, you won't be rolling 2+ (unless your opponent is desperate).

It's the 2 Wounds that I think makes them tougher this edition, and although the changes to armour saves and weapons help, all non-AP2 weapons with AP suddenly got a lot more effective at murdering termies. They're stronger (because let's face it, they were awful), but they're hardly 3+ on 2D6, which is what I think should be done to give them that feel of invulnerability.

"nobody did that" ... yeah sure. Because weight of fire was never a viable way of getting rid of Termis.

And you completely ignored the Cover thing. So yeah while they are slightly less durable against former AP3-4 weapons on a pure AP basis, they will be more durable against former AP2 weapons. Plus keep in mind that Plasma etc. will wound them on 3+ instead of 2+ in 8th.

The 2 wounds are a big deal for sure but the other factors play into their new improved durability as well.

Would make a 3+ on 2d6 them more durable? Heck yes. Would that be a viable mechanic in regular 40k? No, it would be a pain in the to roll just like a unit full of mastercrafted weapons in the current edition. The 3+ on 2d6 works in small skirmish games like SW:A but not in regular 40k.

Lasgun fire to get rid of termies was/is incredibly inefficient. On average, 36 shots per dead termie. That's ~175 points of Guardsmen to nail a single terminator.

Yes, cover will help, but then you're footslogging or Deep Striking them into difficult terrain. Dakka termies are better now, granted.

The 3+ on 2D6 is old wh40k, not SW:A. 2+ is not a terribly reliable save once it gets modified. Even a single point difference doubles the amount of dead termies.

But again, I have some faith in the playtesters. I hope they've given them the invulnerable feel, and not just balanced them for a specific point cost.

I'm not necessarily talking about Lasgun fire but if you want to stick to just that example for a basic weapon then sure go ahead. It's inefficient yes, but efficient enough to make Terminators mostly unviable currently. Yes the amount of AP2 weapons increased a lot but they were never needed to deal with Terminators in the long run.

I know 3+ on 2d6 is old wh40k. That's where Necromunda and SW:A got their rules from. And it was as bad back then as it would be now. It's a bad mechanic that shouldn't ever come back for large scale games no matter how durable it would make them.

Alright, Space Marine bolter fire. 18 bolter shots, on average. 252 points of ~SM, on average.

And about 50-80 points cheaper for actual shooty units with just their basic weaponry. I never said it's ideal, but it was viable. Basic weaponry is nothing special as the name says. You have it because it's just there. It has no special task in your army. So unless there is a more juicy target (mean special weapon in a tac squad, rear armor of some vehicle, a unit on an objective) it was perfectly fine to chipp away on a Terminator unit with those.

Then we have medium weapons where most will have a -1 modifier and some a -2 modifier. The former will be easily dealt with by being in cover (which is not hard at all if it's similar to the current rules) and the latter would still be on a 3+. There we notice the first time they might not have a 2+ save unless they are out in the open.

Heavy weapons are a whole different topic. Plasma and Lascannons reduce them to an armor save that equals their current invul save. 4+ if they are in cover. 3+ if there's something like hard cover in 8th, so perfect for shooty Terminators.

However Lascannons will have a whole different target priority in 8th due their multi-damage profile and the increased wound pool of MCs and vehicles i assume.

I mean I don't disagree with you that 2 wounds is the best thing that happened for Termiantors. It was long overdue. But saying they will never have a 2+ save is just wrong. Overall we can say that the survivability of Terminators doubled with those changes unless they get shot at with the most devastating weapons.

Dude, seriously. Small arms fire (and non-AP2) was the one thing Terminators could reliably withstand in 7th. 2+ armour save. Opening fire with 4 platoons of Guardsmen or 2 squads of SMs to kill a single one is terrible target priority. By changing targets to someone in power armour will double the casualties.

I'm not discussing heavy weapons - AP2, which was rampant in 7th, shredded them, which lead to Storm Shield Terminators being the only non-Termicide unit even slightly viable. I'm stating small arms fire against Terminators was a waste of time in 7th edition, and I highly doubt you're going to be rolling many 2+ armour saves in 8th due to how ineffective small arms fire will still be. Especially after Split Fire for everyone and changes to AP for weapons. Cover is going to be of limited use, because it'll slow your charge or potentially wreck your Deep Strike (not seen rules for either yet, so going by how things have worked so far). Dakka terminators will be able to use it, which I already stated.

[Panzer]

*shrug* if you think so.

They were simply too expensive for the rather small amount of small arms fire they could deal with in my experience.

[HeresyBeliever]

*shrug* if you think so.

They were simply too expensive for the rather small amount of small arms fire they could deal with in my experience.

agreed with this! plus anyone I played which did use them i used to flood with dice from my smaller guns. all my big AP2 stuff went on tanks not terminators. The boys will flood them to death.

 

get a lot of ork boys / cultists / renegades vs 5 terminators