What have your Raven Guard done lately?

[MajorNese]

 

Mine are currently repainting their armor red and enlisting in the blood Angel's chapter.

...or just paint them red for fun. I'm currently doing a few red primaris to go alongside my AdMech/Knights, to get some distraction from the larger projects. Though I guess they're rather Iron Hands than bloodies.

 

[thewarriorhunter]

Really nice shading on that red!

[WickedApp]

really nice paint

[MajorNese]

Thank you. The process for the red-black gradients is the same as with the Raptors (flat brush wet blending), so nothing very time consuming while still giving a nice effect.

[thewarriorhunter]

I'm already looking forward to next week's 650 game. I will have 3 intercessors and two reivers for my kill team done so I'm going to run them as an intercessor squad for the game. I've normally been trying to go for the battalion detachment for the CP but this time I'm going to use a patrol and get an extra squad in vs. an HQ. Our stratagems are 'meh' and I don't have a lot that can take advantage of most of them right now.

 

++ Patrol Detachment (Imperium - Space Marines) [44 PL, 3CP, 647pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun, Storm of Fire, The Armour Indomitus, Warlord

 

+ Troops +

 

Intercessor Squad: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

 

Scout Squad: 7x Camo cloak

. Scout Sergeant: Boltgun, Sniper rifle

. 6x Scout w/Sniper Rifle: 6x Sniper rifle

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Assault Squad: Jump Pack

. 2x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Melta bombs, Plasma pistol

. Space Marine w/Special Weapon

. . Plasma Pistol & Chainsword: Plasma pistol

. Space Marine w/Special Weapon

. . Plasma Pistol & Chainsword: Plasma pistol

 

Inceptor Squad: Assault bolter, 2x Inceptor, Inceptor Sergeant

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Devastator Squad

. Space Marine Sergeant: Storm bolter

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

 

 

Since we normally play on a 4' x 4' board I'm going to try and get the devs into a prime position and the intercessors into a prim/sub-prime spot with the captain somewhere in between the two for his reroll buff.

 

Scouts can touch the entire board so I'm going to find a nice piece of terrain to get them into so they can put pressure on characters. I normally only take 5 so we'll see if squeezing in two more makes any difference. if it works out I'll turtle up all four of those units to get the rerolls and use my fast attack to be fast attacks.

 

ASM and Inceptors are my flex units. I usually decide do deploy/deep strike once I know what I'm playing. I'm leaning towards deploying my ASMs so they can possibly get a turn 1/2 charge off if I need to and deep striking the Inceptors. The inceptors suck in close combat so I'm ok with them dropping down and sitting. They put out 18 shots (sadly the don't get beta bolters) and that can usually do a good job of whittling down infantry. I had a few points to spend so I stuck meltas on the ASM sgt to see if he can't put the hurt on something.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I spent an irresponsible amount of time digging through lists on the BCP app to find Raven Guard lists from LVO

 

All 666 entrants

 

Spoiler: There were zero

 

Popularity Scale: Deathwatch, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Black Templar, Crimson Fists, Salamander (In that order, most to least)

 

Unplayed: Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, White Scars, Emperor's Spears

 

[duz_]

Well that's because or CT, strategem and Chapter Master are OP... oh wait :ermm:

 

 

That's a shame we didn't even get a showing!

[thewarriorhunter]

For as much whining as I read from BT players on these boards I'm surprised they showed up in a competitive event like LVO. If you only took what was read on these boards they're trash and GW hates them more and more with every Primaris release.

 

Back on topic sadly my game for this week is postponed to next week. I had to reschedule a couple things so I'll have to wait another week.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

For as much whining as I read from BT players on these boards I'm surprised they showed up in a competitive event like LVO. If you only took what was read on these boards they're trash and GW hates them more and more with every Primaris release.

 

Back on topic sadly my game for this week is postponed to next week. I had to reschedule a couple things so I'll have to wait another week.

 

Not that I want to justify the whining, but they aren't much better off. They are frequently included as a single model in a Supreme Command Detachment (Astartes) or a Patrol to unlock the deny the witch stratagem, that's all.

[mertbl]

Hi. We are back. Being in red armor didnt make us win at all so I'm going back to what I know and love.

[thewarriorhunter]

My Spectral Sicarii are getting ready for a game tomorrow. It's the 650 night. My original list that I was thinking of taking is a few posts above, or here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/332882-what-have-your-raven-guard-done-lately/?p=5248712

 

I was bored and lunch and wanted to play around with taking my Drop pod. I put this together and am not sure which one I want to take.

 

 

++ Patrol Detachment (Imperium - Space Marines) [44 PL, 650pts] ++

 

**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun, Storm of Fire, The Primarch's Wrath, Warlord

 

+ Troops +

 

Intercessor Squad: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword

 

Scout Squad

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. 3x Scout w/Boltgun

. Scout w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

 

Tactical Squad

. 7x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword

. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Meltagun

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Assault Squad: Jump Pack

. 4x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Plasma pistol

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Devastator Squad

. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Drop Pod: Storm bolter

 

 

The idea with this list is to make everyone go 'WOW' when they see a relic from 7th edition land on the table turn 2 or 3.

 

My scouts deploy forward to be annoying/area denial/objective cap. The assault squad and intercessors start on the table, hopefully in some cover. Intercessors can hopefully can camp a backfield objective and be annoying, the AGL gives me a little reach with something high STR. ASM will move up and try to pick off infantry. Devs do their thing and whittle down big things.

 

My relic drop pod will hold the tac squad and my captain. I'm hoping I can land it in a spot that inconveniences my opponents movement. The squad forms a bubble around my captain and goes for whatever is juicy. The melta gun is there to pop any tough armor that I may need to worry about.

 

One thing I'm not sure about is using a transport - are my marines considered to have 'moved' during the movement phase when they deploy for the beta bolter rule?

Nevermind, found it in the rules, they do count as having moved.

 

And given my two lists options... any thoughts on which one I should go with?

Edited February 18, 2019 by thewarriorhunter

[Race Bannon]

Woah woah ...

 

Tactical Marines?! Assault Marines?!?!

 

What is happening :P

[thewarriorhunter]

Woah woah ...

 

Tactical Marines?! Assault Marines?!?!

 

What is happening

 

I haven't finished painting all of my primaris marines? ;)

[Race Bannon]

Aww man :(

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Id cut the Plasma Cannons in the Devs for a ML/HB and add a Cherub, so you can take advantage of double Hellfire or Flakk missles.

 

If you prefer, you could easily cut one of the two non-tactical squads, then run 2 5-mans in the pod to maximize in a special weapons drop (2x or 4x counting Combis, if you have them for the sergeants).

 

You're also close a battalion if you go that route, so there are  a few options there.

[GreyCrow]

Raven Guard still on hold for the moment !

 

I’m building my new Primaris Chapter at a quick pace and still undecided about the main CT yet !

Although I will soon field a 1000 pts list of

Captain

10 Bolt Rifle Intercessors with Power Sword

2 x 5 Intercessors with Power Sword

9 Inceptors (1 squad of 5, 1 squad of 4) with Plasma Exterminators

 

Basically, drop down and melt stuff, then clear the way for the Intercessors to take objectives !

With Raven Guard Chapter Tactics and stratagems, this should be interesting !

 

Ideally, at 2000 pts, the goal would be to have :

Primaris Captain + Lieutenant

40 Intercessors with Bolt Rifle and Power Sword Sergeant

30 Reivers with combat knife and either grapnel or chutes

9 Plasma Inceptors

 

Playing sneaky with either the Reivers or the Inceptors, and reserving the other one for a flanking attack or a gank Squad.

Edited February 18, 2019 by GreyCrow

[thewarriorhunter]

Id cut the Plasma Cannons in the Devs for a ML/HB and add a Cherub, so you can take advantage of double Hellfire or Flakk missles.

I could do that if I drop swap the melta in my tac squad to a plasma. I haven't seen many vehicles at 650 so that might be something to consider.

 

If you prefer, you could easily cut one of the two non-tactical squads, then run 2 5-mans in the pod to maximize in a special weapons drop (2x or 4x counting Combis, if you have them for the sergeants).

 

I don't have the models to run that and I've already got more proxies in this list than I like. I've only got one completed tactical squad. I'm working on another in my new colors so soon I'll have options for a second.

 

You're also close a battalion if you go that route, so there are a few options there.

I realize that. I ran a battalion the last couple games but found myself wanting more bodies instead of CP and an HQ. This is something a little different for me so I'll see.

 

After taking forever to type this up on mobile and thinking about the devastator squad suggestion I think I might do that.

[thewarriorhunter]

Aww man

 

Don't be too upset. I'm working on a tactical squad right now and have more on deck. You see plenty of oldmarines from me yet.

[thewarriorhunter]

I got         rolled last night. I'm still upset, which is upsetting me even more that it's affecting me so much. It was such a miserable experience that I would have rather stayed home and ruined the paint job on a model than play that game again. To be clear my opponent was a good guy, but the game was horrible. I don't think either of us had fun. I did learn a few things and I've got a couple questions so I'm trying to take away the positives but man... what a miserable game.

 

First up - the armies. My opponent brought guard and was playing catachans. In his list he brought Pask, a wyvren, two primaris psykers, a company commander, three infantry squads and two heavy weapons squads with las. Pretty sure I lost the game right there.

 

You all saw my list, here's a picture of them pre-slaughter:

 

 

We rolled a mission out of CA:2018, it ended up being the one where HQs were worth intel points and there was a single objective in the middle of the board. I honestly think I lost the game right here. He was able to shield all of his HQs behind Pask and another 40 wounds of guardsman that I don't think I could have shot through if the game had gone 7 rounds.

 

Here's deployment (I have scouts in the blue ruins in the center of the table on the objective):

 

 

Gameplay, self-critique, and questions:

 

I deployed first and had first turn. I tried to spread out to take advantage of cover. I used STFS to move my devastators up. I was planning on putting them up in those ruins turn one so they had line of site on his army. The building in the center of the board really hurt my lanes of fire. Then he seized on me and proceeded to blow me off the table.

 

Turn 1 his wyvren wiped my devastator squad off the table. There went my anti tank, and he had two of them. My scouts soaked up a lot of fire but he was slowly picking off at them. On my turn I moved my ASM forward into the white ruins, my intercessors moved up to try and shoot some of his infantry.

 

Turn 2 he wipes my scouts and takes out a few of my ASMs. On my turn I move my scouts into the blue ruin at the top of the picture to try and work on his heavy weapons teams. Intercessors move up to try and contest the objective. My Drop Pod came down in his backfield and I dumped everything out hoping to tie up Pask in CC. I was able to make the charge against his psykers and consolidated into Pask to tie him up.

 

Turn 3 he finishes off my scouts, puts a unit of infantry on the objective and everything else counter charges the few marines I have left and surrounds them. I conceded at this point because there was no way I was pulling out a win.

 

I honestly feel bad because I don't think either of us were having fun. My dice were incredibly cold and his dice were incredibly hot. His wyvren was putting out ~12 shots a turn and pask had 20 at one point. I couldn't kill anything to save my life and failed to kill a single unit entirely. It was a very demoralizing game. I know I looked pissed the entire game and I think he felt bad. I wish I could have been a more gracious loser but for how the game went I could have just set my army up and let him shoot them off the table while I browsed around the store.

 

Here's a cool photo I got of my ASM before they missed every shot, failed a charge, and the got charged and wiped out by a squad of guardsman:

 

 

Takeaways:

 

• I need to quit splitting my army up. I'm hamstringing myself by trying these fancy pincer maneuvers and my reroll aura is not being used hardly at all. I need to start castling up and moving across the board as an army so my re roll bubble helps me out.
• I need more teeth in my army. Hopefully getting some hellbasters painted up will help, and eventually some aggressors.
• I was too aggressive with my devastators. I should have stuck them up in the building where my ASM were and used the to suppress anything advancing on the building.
• I am too aggressive in general with my marines. I tend to want to rush in and when I do I usually get punished for it. When I hang back I tend to do better.
• I should look at getting a psyker because I'm missing out on an entire phase of the game right now.

Questions:

 

• I was so upset I wasn't paying attention to his dice rolling. He was casting +1 to hit on Pask and then rolling to hit on 2+. I think he should have been 3+ since I was outside of 12 and you can't modify your hit better than 2+, right? (he was not degraded).
• I put my drop pod down outside of 9" and then disembarked my marines 3" so they only had a 6" charge, was that right? Or should my marines have been outside of 9" as well?
• What do I do next time I face a list like this?

Edited February 20, 2019 by thewarriorhunter

[MajorNese]

Damn, I know that feeling. Last game I was on the other side of that coin, not really fun either.

 

Sure it was Catachans? Painted as Cadians, and Pask is locked to Cadians. One of the nastiest gunline around...

 

 

I was so upset I wasn't paying attention to his dice rolling. He was casting +1 to hit on Pask and then rolling to hit on 2+. I think he should have been 3+ since I was outside of 12 and you can't modify your hit better than 2+, right? (he was not degraded).

All modifiers are added up. You inflict -1, he compensates with +1, and he's back on that 2+.

 

 

I put my drop pod down outside of 9" and then disembarked my marines 3" so they only had a 6" charge, was that right? Or should my marines have been outside of 9" as well?

The marines need to stay outside of 9" as well. There's a reason drop pods are currently considered as overpriced - they just enable a unit to deep strike at the usual terms, limit the deployment in terms of space (pod and marines >9", disembark distance limited), and cost quite a lot for that.

 

Otherwise, facing an army like that requires more long range AT. One such unit is a target, two or three are a strategy. More damage options with Hellfire/Flakk strat and cherub (5p for a free second Hellfire shell).

 

Degrading his BS to 5+ by keeping the distance and maximizing your own cover is the only way to migitate it somewhat. You already took the advantage of presenting just one target type (no vehicle, one would have just eaten every lascannon and died), but wyverns + punisher pask are definitely an issue, no way to kill/lock that many vehicles, and no way to just ignore them.

 

Last time I went against such an army, I survived by dropping a dozen primaris in CC, tying up as many units as possible and sticking to cover for when his units fell back. Primaris were the distinct advantage there - twice the wounds, twice the attacks, basically 5 primaris are 10 regular marines in CC. Without deployment option though, those might not get there. Grav CC reivers would be an option - hit like 15 marines instead, and have their deployment option for 2ppm. One other thing that IG hates is massed heavy bolter - min units of inceptors, dropping into cover and annihilating a guardsmen squad per round (or decimate far enough for morale to do the rest). Round after dropping, move, wipe out another unit, charge something. That way, his chaff/objective campers/glasscannons die in droves, leaving you free to charge characters and vehicles.

[duz_]

Diito what Major said

 

Looks and sounds like Cadians

Pask hits on a 2+ with his base profile, he can order himself to re-roll 1's too and Leman Russes can move less than 1/2 distance and double fire their main cannon, and never take the penalty to hit on it for moving.

In front of the Level 

 

And yes thats why drop pods suck...
You must disembark within 3" of the drop pod, the unit and drop pod must be at least 9" away from enemy models

Removing that restriction on the disembarking troops would actually make them worth while! 

 

Sounds like a crummy game, maybe you shoulda finished early or asked to re-roll the mission? 
Lopsided games are rarely enjoyable for anyone... 

 

At least your army looks awesome on the table :) 
 

[thewarriorhunter]

Thanks for the input.

 

It was probably Cadians then. And thanks for explaining the modifiers. I thought there was an order of operations but really they just get summed up. And yes, there were re-rolls everywhere. I honestly think half the game was him just rolling dice.

 

I don't think I really have anything to deal with that type of list right now and if I had to play him again I'd probably decline, not because he was a bad guy but I just don't think I can compete. I'm not sure if that was a nasty list to show up to a 650 game with.

 

I think if I'd have taken my other list I would fared better. The inceptors would have put in work on the infantry. My snipers could have targetted his company commander and then tried to picked off the psykers. A lot of the rest would have been the same but those few changes and having more board presence right away could have made a difference. I still don't think I could have pulled out a win since I got seized on but it may have been a closer game.

[Dracos]

Saved: I would like to share some tactical and army list ideas that I hope will help when I get off work this afternoon.

[duz_]

Unfortunately based your list and what you've said of yours you came to have different games

 

Guard can be brutal at low point games especially with how much T8 heavy guns they can bring

[MajorNese]

And thanks for explaining the modifiers. I thought there was an order of operations but really they just get summed up. And yes, there were re-rolls everywhere. I honestly think half the game was him just rolling dice.

There is an order:

First apply rerolls.

Then apply modifiers.

 

Sounds easy, but there's a detail most people missed (including me, until a guy on a tournament made me aware of it), which comes into play when negative hit modifiers and "reroll failed to hit" meet up:

You reroll failed hit rolls, before applying modifiers. Rerolling 1s is not a problem, natural 1s always fail. But everything that (not counting modifiers) hits and later gets modified to fail cannot be rerolled, as before modifiers, is not a failed to hit roll.

 

In this case - Cadians with order Take Aim can reroll every failed hit roll. At BS4+, that's 1-3, so they are rerolled. Then apply -1 to hit modifier for RG (and maybe for moving a heavy weapon), and the 4s don't hit. But rerolls are over, so the 4, while failed, cannot be rerolled.

A decreasing profile on the other hand modifies the ballistic skill, so hitting worse can be rerolled.

 

Which turns really confusing, when your Raptors with Issodon face Girlyman, Flyers/Leviathan, Tiggy and the near untargetable assassin - rerollable and not rerollable modifications everywhere. Hard to hit flyers, moving heavy weapons, decreasing profile, Tiggy cheese, RG camo, only-6s-hit and so on. We ended up just rolling first, then agreeing on what hits and what can be rerolled, and then starting to touch dice again. Much confusion was had that day...