The Primaris Space Marines and the Space Wolves

[Jarl Caldersson]

Where does that post discuss the scale of the models?

 

 

Took the liberty to very roughly guess the size of these things.

 

http://imgur.com/WAKQvbl

 

Block 1 shows a Current Space Marine Captain, Japanese Marines, and Primaris if they all had the same base size. Its pretty obvious the Space Marine Captain is smaller than the others. Meanwhile the Primaris is just slightly taller.

 

Block 2 shows a breakdown of big to small.

 

This is by no ways accurate but uses a best guess on these things size. 

 

 

It is a one off, limited edition, only available in Japan set of collectibles. That is hardly indicative of no model phase out in the works.

 

At this point how does GW shoehorn in all models suddenly becoming Primaris sized? Primaris are the size they are by design and reflected in stat increase. I don't think we can honestly expect all Marine armies to get the stat increase if GW phases in the new size. GH with 2 wounds, an extra attack, access to bolt rifles and plasma rifles, along with their current gear options and rules would be super overpowered.

 

Seems like a catch-22

 

GW said that there were more model releases, they just showed the grav-predator that wasn't in the book and wasn't showed before. There may new models for old marines. The Japan Marine appears to be ever slightly smaller. *shrug* who knows though.

Where does that post discuss the scale of the models?

 

 

Took the liberty to very roughly guess the size of these things.

 

http://imgur.com/WAKQvbl

 

Block 1 shows a Current Space Marine Captain, Japanese Marines, and Primaris if they all had the same base size. Its pretty obvious the Space Marine Captain is smaller than the others. Meanwhile the Primaris is just slightly taller.

 

Block 2 shows a breakdown of big to small.

 

This is by no ways accurate but uses a best guess on these things size. 

[Wolf Guard Dan]

I already pointed out Dan that the Terran Marines were brought into the final led by our primarch and under our primarch taken to war with the Fenrisians to have them bond. In addition the Terran Wolves adopted the fighting style of Russ and his Fenrisians. Russ isn't back yet to lead this bonding and theee Primaris Marines are bringing in RG method, tactics, and weaponry.

 

Huge difference from the angle in which Terran Wolves were brought in and how Primaris Marines are being forced upon us.

With so many boards I forget that we may have already had this debate. My bad. And it may be a circuitous debate in the end. Hopefully Logan can integrate them. And it may be a moot point if like CaptainStabby says we may just be getting the tech. Just using the tech solves the culture problem in my book.

 

We may have to wait for the SW codex to really learn how/why we use these guys.

 

Filius, I've got a train to catch otherwise I'd figure out how to spoiler tag the Battle of Fang reason for no successors. I kinda think its in depth. One of our loremasters may be better at explaining it.

[Grimtooth]

They could go a long way to solving this mess if the tech was just handed off. The idea that Cawl and RG just created a ton of Primaris Marines with tithed geneseed does not sit well with me at all. But I could accept that a portion of Fenrisian aspirants or new Blood Claws were selected to undergo the Primaris process and actually become REAL Primaris SW. I could accept that wholeheartedly!

 

Then it is just a matter of having to cast my gaze in the abortion which will be mismatched model scales on the tabletop between normal Marines and Primaris. That one might not be possible for me to get over.

[Lord Blackwood]

Watching people effectively say 

" I  would rather watch my chapter die than accept a sensible reinforcement option!" 

has been one of the saddest most pathetic things I have seen on these boards in quite some time. 

Maybe its because ive read War of the Beast and I have effectively experienced the death of a chapter I played ( and their Resurrection ) that my perspective on this is different.  It really just sounds like a storm of whining and fussing.

What makes it worse is a lot of the crying is coming from folks I respected , then you toss  in  the normal snide TWC shade being thrown and this thread has not been pleasant to read at all.  

[Jarl Caldersson]

Watching people effectively say 

 

" I  would rather watch my chapter die than accept a sensible reinforcement option!" 

 

has been one of the saddest most pathetic things I have seen on these boards in quite some time. 

 

Maybe its because ive read War of the Beast and I have effectively experienced the death of a chapter I played ( and their Resurrection ) that my perspective on this is different.  It really just sounds like a storm of whining and fussing.

 

What makes it worse is a lot of the crying is coming from folks I respected , then you toss  in  the normal snide TWC shade being thrown and this thread has not been pleasant to read at all.  

 

It's people fearing that this is the first step into making us into codex-chapter, or the first step of diluting the SW individuality. We require the lore and to see if these primaris are truely SW's or are they UM in wolf skin as many people have repeated. 

 

When I first started I had two options I wanted to go to Sallies and SW's. I chose SW's because they were unique and not simply "green-UM's". I am not a fan of TWC, but that is personal taste is all. But if Primaris Marines take over and suddenly no GH/BC/TWC etc. and we get the basic Primaris Marine formations with the same Primaris Marine units with the same Primaris Marine culture are we still wolves?

 

Point is we need to lore to know what the future of these SW actions are. If we are simply taking proper SW's and upgrading them, then that is a great step for us, the next is will we have unique Primaris to fit our SW style? I've given a uneasy pause on the Primaris for now, I wish for the best for us. For now though I think it is best to wait and see what GW gives us. 

[crd26a]

Agreed with the tech handoff going a long way to help the acceptance into the fluff for the SW chapters.  Part of solving it also goes into how we reestablish our lost companies, which part of this will also have to go to do.

 

I'd like to see Logan call for the remaining chapters to help refound the lost chapters.  Looking for each chapter to provide 10-20 members across units, getting the forces back into a ~100 units per new Wolf Lord.  Pack leaders that had exemplified themselves would be selected to be the Primaris units, with Skyclaws going to Inceptors, Long Fangs to Hellblasters & GH to Interceptors (assuming I got the new names right).  As the new WL have drawn down the strength of the existing companies, the key function of these companies are support of the other 10.  This allows the Primaris to show up as support roles and to allow the WL to see the benefits of the Primaris changes for themselves, to embrace or reject accordingly.  Any straggling survivors of the Ironwolves / Bloodhowlers could also come across.  The packs can use their kneepads to symbolize the former WL symbol they came from, building in some solid modeling opportunities with that.  Could even use the right shoulder pad to be the former WL they served.  Def. some options.

 

As the new units need WL, I'd greedily say Logan has to make one of the ultimate sacrifices and have Arjac become a WL.  He doesn't want to lead, but his reputation would help rally one of the companies to strength.  He was at home in front of the Forge, which allows the loss of the Ironwolves to have someone come lead a company focused upon the crafting / support of the armor while still wanting to get up in their face with their tactics.  He's an existing model that would allow someone to build around w/o GW having to come up with someone new.  Given the mandate of the new companies to support the others, Logan can instantly call upon his company to provide support as his champion, but must still think of his full group as a leader.

 

Just some ideas, maybe not the best, but liking the idea on my side.

[CaptainStabby]

Watching people effectively say 

 

" I  would rather watch my chapter die than accept a sensible reinforcement option!" 

 

has been one of the saddest most pathetic things I have seen on these boards in quite some time. 

 

Maybe its because ive read War of the Beast and I have effectively experienced the death of a chapter I played ( and their Resurrection ) that my perspective on this is different.  It really just sounds like a storm of whining and fussing.

 

What makes it worse is a lot of the crying is coming from folks I respected , then you toss  in  the normal snide TWC shade being thrown and this thread has not been pleasant to read at all.  

I just want a good in universe reason aside from "Cawl is magic", because I really do like the Primaris models but crappy worldbuilding aggravates the hell out of me. GW's "everything is canon and nothing is canon" is a really terrible handwave and it always has been.

 

If the answer is "Cawl is magic". Then just come out and tell us that all the Primaris are, are a way to get marine players to buy entirely new armies. *shrug*

[Grimtooth]

Watching people effectively say

 

" I would rather watch my chapter die than accept a sensible reinforcement option!"

 

has been one of the saddest most pathetic things I have seen on these boards in quite some time.

 

Maybe its because ive read War of the Beast and I have effectively experienced the death of a chapter I played ( and their Resurrection ) that my perspective on this is different. It really just sounds like a storm of whining and fussing.

 

What makes it worse is a lot of the crying is coming from folks I respected , then you toss in the normal snide TWC shade being thrown and this thread has not been pleasant to read at all.

You can't say that what drew you to the Wolves is their uniqueness and flavor in one breath and then accept this crap lore of just having SW Primaris delivered to our doorstep by RG and Cawl. That is just disengenous and makes you a hypocrite.

 

Size differences aside, which is literally rusty nails covered in lime juice slowly pushed in my eyeballs, I could have 100000% happily run my normal Space Wolves army with a couple of UM painted Primaris units seconded to my Wolves as support in a time of high casualties and dire circumstances. I would not even have batted an eye if the UM were getting new stuff from Guilliaman because he is the damn primarch of the UM and he does is introducing this founding. The caveat being that the technology would be passed along to the individual chapters/successors to implement or choose not to implement upon their own recruits/aspirants.

 

But instead, GW has RG and Cawl just crank out chapters and successors using tithed genestock, where absolutely none of those walking out of their labs have no connection to their namesake other than in some DNA. And then send them off to integrate into their father chapters as complete outsiders with tactics and gear absolutely foreign to their "brethren".

 

So like I said, if you had one iota of respect about the lore prior to this release, then you have every right and in fact duty to reject this lore and raise hell because of it.

 

Sadly, I can shoehorn in the use of Primaris UM into my Wolves army as mentioned above and even shoehorn Primaris SW by saying that these were new Blood Claws selected to take the Primaris upgrade, but the scale difference drives me insane.

[Yoyo ninja]

Sorry Ramses but if your really that salty about it just don't buy any, no one is making you. And if you can't stand to even see them on the table then leave the hobby. There are other cool games to play.

We haven't even seen the fluff yet, other than the small teaser saying ultima crusade is about RG and Cawl bringing the stuff to make primaris marines to chapter homeworlds.

Your aloud to not like what you have seen so far but you can't give other people grief for liking it.

[Wispy]

I've found Ramses way about this especially overbearing. Primaris-shaming players who like them going to be a thing? I hope not. Let's nip that in the bud here and now.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Wispy

[Kelborn]

Totally agree with Wispy and Yoyo Ninja.

 

We all realized that you're disliking the released BITS OF FLUFF.

 

We all accept every opinion in here but it's enough.

 

Don't disregard someone only fir the fact that he likes the new stuff.

 

Guess what? I'm working on a Liber article about a Primaris SW successor.

 

Got a heart attack?

 

No? GOOD! See, you're still alive. I still love and respect my favorite chapter's & legion's lore. Like everyone in here. So stop that crap right now.

 

If you can't bear with it, take a break or whatever might help. But please stop this salty rage!

[Grimtooth]

Hahaha, so my saty rage has been countered by the salty rage of those that like the Primaris fluff or just choose to give it a nod and wave despite being so serious in the past about the established SW lore.

 

Liking the models is one thing. I like them and hope that I can field an entire SW army with just the larger models if GW or third party companies have the bits. Despising the lore is another thing all together. But to for those that were lore "police" prior to the Primaris debacle should probably not comment about people disliking how these have been implemented in this crap lore.

 

As for your Primaris Successor, I am sure you can expect some to applaud you and rub your tummy for writing such an article. At the same time however, also be prepared to be scoffed at by the same people that scoffed at thise that have tried for decades to claim SW successor chapters being legit despite the lore saying it was not.

[Valerian]

Just a suggestion, but why don't we put the discussion of the lore on the Primaris Marines integration into the Space Wolves Chapter on hold for a bit until, you know, we actually have the lore on the integration of the Primaris Marines into the Space Wolves?  There's really not much point in discussing it either way right now, since we haven't actually seen any of it.  Can we all agree to just set it aside until it has actually been written?  Then, once it's available, and we've had time to digest it, we can open a new thread, or necro this one, and we can all come back and opine about whether they did a good job of writing an acceptable fluff-justification of the whole thing, or not.

 

Who's with me?

[Kelborn]

 

@Valerian: I'm with you. Imho, there are good ways of implementing the Primaris in a reasonable way. But for now, these are just speculations and suggestions. We just don't know yet of how they will do it. Therefore, let's wait and have a tea, shall we?

Edited June 2, 2017 by Wolf Lord Kieran
removed reply to nonconstructive post

[Yoyo ninja]

Just a suggestion, but why don't we put the discussion of the lore on the Primaris Marines integration into the Space Wolves Chapter on hold for a bit until, you know, we actually have the lore on the integration of the Primaris Marines into the Space Wolves? There's really not much point in discussing it either way right now, since we haven't actually seen any of it. Can we all agree to just set it aside until it has actually been written? Then, once it's available, and we've had time to digest it, we can open a new thread, or necro this one, and we can all come back and opine about whether they did a good job of writing an acceptable fluff-justification of the whole thing, or not.

 

Who's with me?

All of this. I like the models, the new tank looks awesome and I hope the fluff is as awesome.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

I've found Ramses way about this especially overbearing. Primaris-shaming players who like them going to be a thing? I hope not. Let's nip that in the bud here and now.

 

Hopefully repeat offenders will be banned.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Alright brothers, I had to actually hide a slew of posts for the first time in forever. 

I dont like doing that and I bet people dont like their posts being hidden.

 

So let's remember something important here: You dont have to like a release or point of view in order to discuss it in a friendly manner. 

 

If you dont like something, you can simply state that and why, but you dont have insult those that do. If the behavior is something ongoing, I urge you all to either message a moderator (myself, RPR or Lord Rags here in the Fang) or use the Report function.

 

And if you dont have anything constructive to say, then simply move on to another thread.

 

Cheers everybody,

 

Wolf Lord Kieran

===B&C Mod Team===

Edited June 2, 2017 by Wolf Lord Kieran

[Jarl Caldersson]

If I can suggest something. Maybe it is best we drop this discussion until we have the lore out. We dont have the full picture and we seem to be fighting in the dark over something we will find out soon. So lets pick this up when we have facts and not hazy short blurbs. Then we can discuss these primaris, their creation, their place, their future.

[Nuriel-666]

I really hope that GW take some ideas from Norse mythology here and present Primaris as the Vanir for the "standard" Space Wolves's Aesir (at least in terminology). 

[Wolf_Lord_Hardrada]

That would be cool, but even if they don't I'm going to :P Like the lore or not, these bigger marines have more space for painting runes and squiggly Anglo-Scandinavian art on :D

[Lord Blackwood]

So come to find out that some of the primarus marines made by cawl were plucked from  Fenris back when he started the project. 

They were deemed suitable candidates to join the Legions but then Cawl's boys stepped in, transferred them to the Primaris project and put them on ice for up to 10,000 years

So these are blood of our world. 

Also Theres mention of atleast 1 successor chapter called the Wolfspear 

 

[Jarl Caldersson]

So come to find out that some of the primarus marines made by cawl were plucked from  Fenris back when he started the project. 

They were deemed suitable candidates to join the Legions but then Cawl's boys stepped in, transferred them to the Primaris project and put them on ice for up to 10,000 years

So these are blood of our world. 

Also Theres mention of atleast 1 successor chapter called the Wolfspear

 

Gotta source for this?

 

Also in the N&R section there was a blurb from Lady Atia that Guilliman think Primaris are an abomination or something. So it seems Primaris are all Cawls doing and not Guillimans. So Guilliman is using them as a necessity not as he wants. Which means he may not be forcing chapters to use them, thus not replacing original marines.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Gotta source for this?

 

Dark Imperium. I've been reading the book and giving him updates as I go along.

 

One of the Primaris Marines in the novel is a bloke called Bjarni Arvisson, naturally of Russ' stock. He's a native Fenrisian and acts every bit the prototypical Space Wolf - he even has the Fenrisian tribal tattoos to prove it - and speaks of the Vlka Fenryka and the Rout in those terms. It's never explicitly stated when he was attached to the Primaris project but there certainly are Primaris Marines in the novel who have memories of their early lives from not long after the Heresy. A new Primaris Chapter by the name of the Wolfspear is created during the novel which is set to be made up entirely of Primaris Marines from Russ' stock.

[Wispy]

That sounds :cussing rad if for real.

 

I want Space Wolves succesors so bad.

[Lord Blackwood]

Its real , its in  the book.