The Black Legion

[Mellow]

Well that's what I'm getting at. He has gene seed but he doesn't carry the extra organs, or does he? Is He super natural by nature or did he genetically engineer himself? Or was He altered by someone/thing else?

[Vesper]

Dudes, Black Legion topic. Emperor's seed and other proto-sexual topics should be discussed elsewhere.

[bluntblade]

Moving swiftly on, I have a soft spot for little gestures and stuff that are unique to a Legion (seems to be something AD-B's fond of himself), so things like that Cthonian triple-tap over the heart always make me happy.

[Vesper]

Moving swiftly on, I have a soft spot for little gestures and stuff that are unique to a Legion (seems to be something AD-B's fond of himself), so things like that Cthonian triple-tap over the heart always make me happy.

Oh yeah. That's really part of a Legion's identity. And the Black Legion's identity seems to be mostly chtonic in origin. Probably with other stuff brought from other sources we havn't seen yet.

[Sandlemad]

 

Moving swiftly on, I have a soft spot for little gestures and stuff that are unique to a Legion (seems to be something AD-B's fond of himself), so things like that Cthonian triple-tap over the heart always make me happy.

Oh yeah. That's really part of a Legion's identity. And the Black Legion's identity seems to be mostly chtonic in origin. Probably with other stuff brought from other sources we havn't seen yet.

 

 

Really enjoyed the way Khayon explains how little the XVI legion and Cthonia means to the BL identity but then he, a Prosperine, has picked that up. Feels like one of those intricate national identity-style things that is ridiculously complicated to explain to an outsider.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

Moving swiftly on, I have a soft spot for little gestures and stuff that are unique to a Legion (seems to be something AD-B's fond of himself), so things like that Cthonian triple-tap over the heart always make me happy.

Oh yeah. That's really part of a Legion's identity. And the Black Legion's identity seems to be mostly chtonic in origin. Probably with other stuff brought from other sources we havn't seen yet.

Really enjoyed the way Khayon explains how little the XVI legion and Cthonia means to the BL identity but then he, a Prosperine, has picked that up. Feels like one of those intricate national identity-style things that is ridiculously complicated to explain to an outsider.

It's going to be one of those cases where Abaddon in Cthonian and has mannerisms and speaks like a Cthonian, but his men adopt those traits not because they identify with or want to be Cthonian, but because they want to be more like their leader. Equivalent to how Americans might learn French because Grandma was French, or might eat Mexican cuisine as a family but your families been from California since the War with Mexico. Melting pot identities like the Black Legion's only work when the identity supersedes the one before it, even if the new identity is nebulous and undefined. If you had a bunch of World Eaters trying to preach the gospel of Khorne and lobotomize everyone with the nails and paint their armor white the Black Legion would no longer be the Black Legion. Abaddon would have to stop that behavior or marginalize it if he needs the berzerkers but not the baggage that comes with the nails.

[bluntblade]

I've adopted some Kiwi mannerisms in the fourteen months I've been out here; it's easily done

[Hellath]

The Warhammer Community page has unveiled the (still not final) cover for Black Legion.

 

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/11/23/what-we-learned-at-black-library-live/

 

I can't wait to read this one.

[Loesh]

That's the Eternal Crusade artwork for Abaddon.

 

Granted, it's really good artwork.

[Vesper]

I can't stand it.

Raymond Swanland to the rescue !

[Marshal Loss]

Not a fan at all of that artwork.

[Runefyre]

Not a fan at all of that artwork.

Nor I, that better not be the finalized artwork.

[Marshal Rohr]

Gross

[veterannoob]

The one book has several nice pages of cool color schemes for TSons. Like the battletomes which could be considered more "cartoony" instead of a "How to paint" or paint splatter. Apparently the WD has a paint section. I don't have my WD yet. 

[bluntblade]

I can't stand it.

Raymond Swanland to the rescue !

Do it. Neon pink will never suit Abaddon

[Hellath]

It says the artwork is not final, but I sincerely hope it means it's only placeholder. I don't like it enough for what it will undoubtly be an awesome book. 

In any case, I hope Black Library produces a First Edition, like they did with The Talon of Horus, with a similar cover. 

 

[A D-B]

Definitely a placeholder, guys and gals. 

 

I saw Raye Harrison at Black Library Live - she's the cover director these days (and a great writer in her own right, by the by) - and although I forgot to ask about the BL cover, I'd already passed on my request to editorial a while back, so I reckon it's all good. 

[grailkeeper]

Nah that is the actual cover. "Cover not final" is just the tag line and refers to  Sigismund failing the cover save he gets from his throne.

[Loesh]

 

 

 

Moving swiftly on, I have a soft spot for little gestures and stuff that are unique to a Legion (seems to be something AD-B's fond of himself), so things like that Cthonian triple-tap over the heart always make me happy.

Oh yeah. That's really part of a Legion's identity. And the Black Legion's identity seems to be mostly chtonic in origin. Probably with other stuff brought from other sources we havn't seen yet.

Really enjoyed the way Khayon explains how little the XVI legion and Cthonia means to the BL identity but then he, a Prosperine, has picked that up. Feels like one of those intricate national identity-style things that is ridiculously complicated to explain to an outsider.

It's going to be one of those cases where Abaddon in Cthonian and has mannerisms and speaks like a Cthonian, but his men adopt those traits not because they identify with or want to be Cthonian, but because they want to be more like their leader. Equivalent to how Americans might learn French because Grandma was French, or might eat Mexican cuisine as a family but your families been from California since the War with Mexico. Melting pot identities like the Black Legion's only work when the identity supersedes the one before it, even if the new identity is nebulous and undefined. If you had a bunch of World Eaters trying to preach the gospel of Khorne and lobotomize everyone with the nails and paint their armor white the Black Legion would no longer be the Black Legion. Abaddon would have to stop that behavior or marginalize it if he needs the berzerkers but not the baggage that comes with the nails.

 

 

Something that would take a ridiculous amount of time to detail, but I think would be awesome to detail in the series, is to emphasize the 'melting pot' aspect of the Black Legion. Not simply something as simple as 'Abaddon's Cthonian so we're all taking Cthonian customs' but how that mixes in with eight other Legions and countless renegade chapters. Back in my Homeland we have a lot of things that we absorbed from Americans during Vietnam, a lot of divides created over long years of war. Not just between North and South, but even central Vietnam who have such a radically different tongue that it's hard for someone to understand from either dialect to understand, nevermind if you're a foreigner.

 

What happens when you take a microcosm of a thousand different cultures and blend them together with tens of thousands of marines and countless human servants over ten thousand years of warfare? what kind of army does that breed and how strange would that look even to the other traitor legions? When Cthonian mixes with Prosperine culture or the relatively fast and vicious spearhead tactics of the Sons bleed into the grinding slow warfare of the Iron Warriors? Or hell, not even that but when they start to bleed in with each other. When the Hounds of Abaddon and Children of Torment are fighting shoulder to shoulder over thirteen Black Crusades how strange would it be for Chemosian tradition to mix with Angrons more primal Nucian traditions?

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

 

Moving swiftly on, I have a soft spot for little gestures and stuff that are unique to a Legion (seems to be something AD-B's fond of himself), so things like that Cthonian triple-tap over the heart always make me happy.

Oh yeah. That's really part of a Legion's identity. And the Black Legion's identity seems to be mostly chtonic in origin. Probably with other stuff brought from other sources we havn't seen yet.

Really enjoyed the way Khayon explains how little the XVI legion and Cthonia means to the BL identity but then he, a Prosperine, has picked that up. Feels like one of those intricate national identity-style things that is ridiculously complicated to explain to an outsider.

It's going to be one of those cases where Abaddon in Cthonian and has mannerisms and speaks like a Cthonian, but his men adopt those traits not because they identify with or want to be Cthonian, but because they want to be more like their leader. Equivalent to how Americans might learn French because Grandma was French, or might eat Mexican cuisine as a family but your families been from California since the War with Mexico. Melting pot identities like the Black Legion's only work when the identity supersedes the one before it, even if the new identity is nebulous and undefined. If you had a bunch of World Eaters trying to preach the gospel of Khorne and lobotomize everyone with the nails and paint their armor white the Black Legion would no longer be the Black Legion. Abaddon would have to stop that behavior or marginalize it if he needs the berzerkers but not the baggage that comes with the nails.

Something that would take a ridiculous amount of time to detail, but I think would be awesome to detail in the series, is to emphasize the 'melting pot' aspect of the Black Legion. Not simply something as simple as 'Abaddon's Cthonian so we're all taking Cthonian customs' but how that mixes in with eight other Legions and countless renegade chapters. Back in my Homeland we have a lot of things that we absorbed from Americans during Vietnam, a lot of divides created over long years of war. Not just between North and South, but even central Vietnam who have such a radically different tongue that it's hard for someone to understand from either dialect to understand, nevermind if you're a foreigner.

 

What happens when you take a microcosm of a thousand different cultures and blend them together with tens of thousands of marines and countless human servants over ten thousand years of warfare? what kind of army does that breed and how strange would that look even to the other traitor legions? When Cthonian mixes with Prosperine culture or the relatively fast and vicious spearhead tactics of the Sons bleed into the grinding slow warfare of the Iron Warriors? Or hell, not even that but when they start to bleed in with each other. When the Hounds of Abaddon and Children of Torment are fighting shoulder to shoulder over thirteen Black Crusades how strange would it be for Chemosian tradition to mix with Angrons more primal Nucian traditions?

Militaries, from a sociology standpoint, are fascinating studies in indentity because the nature of life or death experiences forces people to bond in a way that supersedes other prejudices. You saw it in the US when segregated troops were forced to fight with white troops during WWII and fully integrated units in Vietnam ended up forming bonds between white and black soldiers who couldn't eat in the same part of the restaurant at home. Europeans had African, Asian, and Middle Eastern colonial troops did the same thing with their white counterparts every single time they fought together over extended campaigns. Because the Black Legion is primarily, at its most basic level, a warband led by a warlord, it would function more like a military than a government though it would naturally have internecine politics of leadership because it has to govern territories. That would, over time, almost ensure the erasure of any underlying culture and build a new identity based on shared hardship and shed blood. One of the reasons ADBs 'new' take on the black legion appeals to me so much, because you have to join the black legion and leave your old self behind. That makes the trope of chaos turning on itself impossible.

 

Think about it. You've got an EC and. WE fighting together in the same squad and at the beginning they may hate each other for Skallathrax, but the first time the WE drags that wounded EC to cover and beats some loyalists to death with his bare hands until the Medic can fix the EC, Skallathrax is out the window and that EC and WE will have an unshakable bond. Take that and spread it into a hundred thousand black clad terror machines, and of course Abaddon and his legion are the lords of the end times. How could they not be?

[Chapter Master Valrak]

 

The Warhammer Community page has unveiled the (still not final) cover for Black Legion.

 

 

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/11/23/what-we-learned-at-black-library-live/

 

I can't wait to read this one.

 

 

Just a heads up, I know ADB stated this was a placeholder but that art piece is from Eternal Crusade. One was made for each faction leader by this chap:

 

http://ukitakumuki.deviantart.com/art/Eternal-Crusade-Promo-Art-Abaddon-The-Despoiler-533382001

[Marshal Loss]

That's a huge relief - was worried because sometimes I've seen the 'cover not final' art actually turning out to be the cover.

 

All good. I concur with the other gent(s) hoping for another first edition anyway, I'm still in love with my ToH one.

[HeritorA]

Definitely a placeholder, guys and gals. 

 

I saw Raye Harrison at Black Library Live - she's the cover director these days (and a great writer in her own right, by the by) - and although I forgot to ask about the BL cover, I'd already passed on my request to editorial a while back, so I reckon it's all good. 

Yessss! Ty A D-B!

 

Plus we all know that novel itself would be awesome even if you will chop it in to two and finish first book before the first crusade (it's a little cheat but we will forgive you). Cause - it will have more Khayon and his amazing set of cards; it has 'believable' Abby character; it has Delvarus (Hussah!); it has zealots (BT); it has ancient kings; void onslaught and much much much more.

 

It's already number one in my 'to read' list!

[Loesh]

 

 

 

 

 

Moving swiftly on, I have a soft spot for little gestures and stuff that are unique to a Legion (seems to be something AD-B's fond of himself), so things like that Cthonian triple-tap over the heart always make me happy.

Oh yeah. That's really part of a Legion's identity. And the Black Legion's identity seems to be mostly chtonic in origin. Probably with other stuff brought from other sources we havn't seen yet.

Really enjoyed the way Khayon explains how little the XVI legion and Cthonia means to the BL identity but then he, a Prosperine, has picked that up. Feels like one of those intricate national identity-style things that is ridiculously complicated to explain to an outsider.

It's going to be one of those cases where Abaddon in Cthonian and has mannerisms and speaks like a Cthonian, but his men adopt those traits not because they identify with or want to be Cthonian, but because they want to be more like their leader. Equivalent to how Americans might learn French because Grandma was French, or might eat Mexican cuisine as a family but your families been from California since the War with Mexico. Melting pot identities like the Black Legion's only work when the identity supersedes the one before it, even if the new identity is nebulous and undefined. If you had a bunch of World Eaters trying to preach the gospel of Khorne and lobotomize everyone with the nails and paint their armor white the Black Legion would no longer be the Black Legion. Abaddon would have to stop that behavior or marginalize it if he needs the berzerkers but not the baggage that comes with the nails.

Something that would take a ridiculous amount of time to detail, but I think would be awesome to detail in the series, is to emphasize the 'melting pot' aspect of the Black Legion. Not simply something as simple as 'Abaddon's Cthonian so we're all taking Cthonian customs' but how that mixes in with eight other Legions and countless renegade chapters. Back in my Homeland we have a lot of things that we absorbed from Americans during Vietnam, a lot of divides created over long years of war. Not just between North and South, but even central Vietnam who have such a radically different tongue that it's hard for someone to understand from either dialect to understand, nevermind if you're a foreigner.

 

What happens when you take a microcosm of a thousand different cultures and blend them together with tens of thousands of marines and countless human servants over ten thousand years of warfare? what kind of army does that breed and how strange would that look even to the other traitor legions? When Cthonian mixes with Prosperine culture or the relatively fast and vicious spearhead tactics of the Sons bleed into the grinding slow warfare of the Iron Warriors? Or hell, not even that but when they start to bleed in with each other. When the Hounds of Abaddon and Children of Torment are fighting shoulder to shoulder over thirteen Black Crusades how strange would it be for Chemosian tradition to mix with Angrons more primal Nucian traditions?

Militaries, from a sociology standpoint, are fascinating studies in indentity because the nature of life or death experiences forces people to bond in a way that supersedes other prejudices. You saw it in the US when segregated troops were forced to fight with white troops during WWII and fully integrated units in Vietnam ended up forming bonds between white and black soldiers who couldn't eat in the same part of the restaurant at home. Europeans had African, Asian, and Middle Eastern colonial troops did the same thing with their white counterparts every single time they fought together over extended campaigns. Because the Black Legion is primarily, at its most basic level, a warband led by a warlord, it would function more like a military than a government though it would naturally have internecine politics of leadership because it has to govern territories. That would, over time, almost ensure the erasure of any underlying culture and build a new identity based on shared hardship and shed blood. One of the reasons ADBs 'new' take on the black legion appeals to me so much, because you have to join the black legion and leave your old self behind. That makes the trope of chaos turning on itself impossible.

 

Think about it. You've got an EC and. WE fighting together in the same squad and at the beginning they may hate each other for Skallathrax, but the first time the WE drags that wounded EC to cover and beats some loyalists to death with his bare hands until the Medic can fix the EC, Skallathrax is out the window and that EC and WE will have an unshakable bond. Take that and spread it into a hundred thousand black clad terror machines, and of course Abaddon and his legion are the lords of the end times. How could they not be?

 

 

 

Took me a bit to respond because of Thanksgiving, but what I wanted to say is I don't think either interpretation is mutually exclusive. In fact, I like both but I tend to see it as more of a melting pot because of this:

 

They are, after all, a collection of ten thousand year old post humans with their own agenda's and goals with their own beliefs and ideologies. Some of them will embrace that brotherhood, others will reject it, some will even go so far as to actually infight at times as is the nature of not just Chaos but humanity in general. Sure there's brotherhoods to share, battles to be fought together, but it is almost impossible to strip yourself of your former identity. Indeed to me the Black Legion is strong because of where they came from, even if they do not acknowledge it as such. Because while they all have rejected the Great Game in favor of the Long War unlike so many of their brothers, it's still their unique talents and backgrounds that make them strong. It is not strictly nature vs nurture, though rather hilariously i'm sure plenty of individuals in that setting see it as being that black and white.

 

What makes the Black Legion strong is that they are the past transformed through the future, they are the Nine Legions and countless renegades who are looking forward but doing so with the skills and tools their fathers gifted to them. One could argue the Nine Legions were complete failures because the Black LEgion overcame all to lead against Terra, but I perceive it differently: The Black Legion is proof of the Nine Legions success, it is the transcendance  of their own nations and loyalties towards a worthy cause, but one that doesn't sacrifice their identity in the process. After all i'm sure countless Chaos Space Marine warbands have chosen to simply forget their past, but if it was so simple as stripping your identity...then why aren't any of them marching on Terra in the Black Legions place?

 

Another part of that is that even on it's most basic level I don't see the Black Legion as just a warband with a warlord, it is not as simple as thousands of marines owing fealty, or at least lip service, to Abaddon the Despoiler. It is more akin to the Mongolian empire, with several nations and states technically ruled by one government but with a level of autonomy within themselves.  Not every Slaaneshi is a Child of Torment, nor every Khornite a Hound of Abaddon, nor do they all particularly like Abaddon,  those are simply the largest groups and it's likely countless leaders have a seat at the table and varying levels of say when Abaddon holds court. Because the Black Legion is countless warbands, countless mechanicus, countless cultists  spread over countless spinning worlds in and out of the Great Eye that are all feeding resources into the machine called the Long War. All these places have their own cultures, customs, and beliefs amplified by the fact that while they share bonds of brotherhood.  several Black Legion warbands might not even see each other between crusades, they might even fight and kill each other inbetween as is the nature of the Chaos Gods, but Abaddon keeps it from getting out of hand and ensures all those resources are still going to the Long War when it's done.

 

These marines and their servants don't all see Abaddon or their respective leaders as some Messiah to bring down the imperium, but they all have something Abaddon wants, or they all have their own reasons to pitch in a war against the Materium. After ten thousand years of warfare, construction, and trade(For however the hell trade works in the Eye of Terror.) cultures would have started to bleed into each other both on and off the Black Crusades, or entirely new cultures would be raised up away from the mainstream Black Legion but with a Cthonian twist or some sample of where that cultures master came from. But despite the infighting that might cause at times, it's what gives Abaddon such a wide array of tools, though he doesn't have the numbers of nine Great Crusade Legions, he has all their tactics and skills to draw upon honed through the millennia of veterancy under their belt.

 

Why I like this is because it makes the trope of Chaos turning on itself a strength rather then a weakness, it's the clashing conquests and desires of various warlords with agendas cultivated within a larger group to make something strong and independent but also purposeful. I do not think the Black Legion never infight, in fact i'd say they probably infight more then most, but in a controlled setting where they do not annihilate each other completely and where the spoils taken by whoever wins is still ultimately pushing towards the Long War and the overall bodies objective.

[Marshal Rohr]

While none of that is wrong, I think the idea of holding multiple identities with mutually exclusive ideologies causes more division than success. If you worship Khorne and believe it doesn't matter where the skulls come from and you start killing competent and loyal auxilia Abaddon will take issue with you and make you stop. Think of it like freedom of religion. Sacrifice all the slaves you want, hold honor duels, build skull pyramids of conquered foes but don't do any of those things to your own team.