Loesh Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 This is however, the Chaos Gods we are talking about. One issue I take with that interpretation is that it's....too clean. Chaos Marines are still Chaos Marines, in my mind it makes more logical sense for Abaddon to try and control the infighting in a way that's beneficial rather then stamp it out entirely. That's impossible, and would probably displease the Gods of the warp anyway. Rather use it as a way to cultivate strength, to weed out the weak, to facilitate the ascendance of Champions, and to covertly purge dissidents. Abaddon is not omniscient nor omnipotent, he can't be on every one of his thousand worlds in the Eye, so rather then curb what just comes naturally to Chaos it's better to set up a system that controls it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4571917 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 This is however, the Chaos Gods we are talking about. One issue I take with that interpretation is that it's....too clean. Chaos Marines are still Chaos Marines, in my mind it makes more logical sense for Abaddon to try and control the infighting in a way that's beneficial rather then stamp it out entirely. That's impossible, and would probably displease the Gods of the warp anyway. Rather use it as a way to cultivate strength, to weed out the weak, to facilitate the ascendance of Champions, and to covertly purge dissidents. Abaddon is not omniscient nor omnipotent, he can't be on every one of his thousand worlds in the Eye, so rather then curb what just comes naturally to Chaos it's better to set up a system that controls it. What I'm saying doesn't cancel any of that out, either. I'm talking about specifically removing the trope of moustache twirling evil for evils sake the studio falls back on. Everything you've described has happened plenty in human history and none of it needs silly magic gods to make it work. Chaos is best when it functions without the magic parts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4571932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 Debatable really, Chaos for me functions best when people aren't screaming "FOR SLAANESH!" and are instead screaming "For Fulgrim!" or "For Lucius!" or "For Shornaal/Slaa Neth/one of it's other billion names!" or simply screaming nothing at all but they feel something else take hold. When Chaos is treated less like a physical coherent entity telling you to slice your brothers throat, and instead is a sudden an unexplained impulse. When it's not a warpstorm devouring the sky, and instead one of the shopkeepers in an Agri World seemingly having all the wrong angles. The former is what leads to the mustache twirling, what Chaos really needs is actually more Chaos but done with a subtle touch. I would actually love to see that in the Black Legion series, a Chaos that doesn't speak to you, doesn't have a true name, but is instead the sins written on your flesh and on your soul. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4571944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 I loved how Abnett handled Chaos in PB Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4572571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
grailkeeper Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 Read a quote today by Aliester Crowley “Magic is the Science and Art of Causing Change in Conformity with Will.” That approach to me reflects ADBs take, and the Horus Heresy era writers take on Pyschic Powers and Chaos. In particular it reminds me of the Word Bearers and Khayon's approach. Demonic incantations being the sound of 666 people drowning simultaneously or the wails of mothers whose children were killed in front of them. Mutations warping your physical form to match your inner hungers. Much better than "Everyone gets tentacles lol". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4572689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Read a quote today by Aliester Crowley “Magic is the Science and Art of Causing Change in Conformity with Will.” That approach to me reflects ADBs take, and the Horus Heresy era writers take on Pyschic Powers and Chaos. In particular it reminds me of the Word Bearers and Khayon's approach. Demonic incantations being the sound of 666 people drowning simultaneously or the wails of mothers whose children were killed in front of them. Mutations warping your physical form to match your inner hungers. Much better than "Everyone gets tentacles lol". Amazing quote and great comparison to Khayon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4575404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 For all it's many flaws, I love the Emperors Children book series because of this. Over those books Slaanesh is mentioned maybe five times in total, the corruption doesn't come from the avatars of gods sauntering down to offer mortals deals and instead from their own deprivation being amplified to higher extremes. There is no morphogenetic field that somehow gives the Legion communal knowledge of what Slaanesh is or what it's about, why would there be? Only Fulgrim at the very top gets a name, and even then he can only kind of grasp the edges of what Slaanesh represents as a concept until after Reflection Crack'd. What they are is unclear even in the Eye of Terror and so the quickest was to suck me out of the immersion is to have a swarm of marines yelling about Tzeentch being the master of fate or Nurgle claiming all life on a world, because my immediate thought is how do you all even know what that is? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4575542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 For all it's many flaws, I love the Emperors Children book series because of this. Over those books Slaanesh is mentioned maybe five times in total, the corruption doesn't come from the avatars of gods sauntering down to offer mortals deals and instead from their own deprivation being amplified to higher extremes. There is no morphogenetic field that somehow gives the Legion communal knowledge of what Slaanesh is or what it's about, why would there be? Only Fulgrim at the very top gets a name, and even then he can only kind of grasp the edges of what Slaanesh represents as a concept until after Reflection Crack'd. What they are is unclear even in the Eye of Terror and so the quickest was to suck me out of the immersion is to have a swarm of marines yelling about Tzeentch being the master of fate or Nurgle claiming all life on a world, because my immediate thought is how do you all even know what that is? True. Kairosean and Lucius and Fabius are definitely for you. With incoming Fabius Bile Primogenitor and Lucius novel we had a lot of interesting tidbits ahead :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4576591 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Definitely a placeholder, guys and gals. I saw Raye Harrison at Black Library Live - she's the cover director these days (and a great writer in her own right, by the by) - and although I forgot to ask about the BL cover, I'd already passed on my request to editorial a while back, so I reckon it's all good. Goooddddd :) In general can't wait for your next awesome book (Abaddon for the warmaster ;) ). Hope you are not mad at me or angry. I hope we clarified that at Nottingham. I did cleared my account from other angry 'people' so hope to have a constructive dialog with you in the future. Without silly questions from 'my' side Promise. P.S. Still my opinion on Kyme will never change. Sorry Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4576604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 For all it's many flaws, I love the Emperors Children book series because of this. Over those books Slaanesh is mentioned maybe five times in total, the corruption doesn't come from the avatars of gods sauntering down to offer mortals deals and instead from their own deprivation being amplified to higher extremes. There is no morphogenetic field that somehow gives the Legion communal knowledge of what Slaanesh is or what it's about, why would there be? Only Fulgrim at the very top gets a name, and even then he can only kind of grasp the edges of what Slaanesh represents as a concept until after Reflection Crack'd. What they are is unclear even in the Eye of Terror and so the quickest was to suck me out of the immersion is to have a swarm of marines yelling about Tzeentch being the master of fate or Nurgle claiming all life on a world, because my immediate thought is how do you all even know what that is? It's that uncanny feeling, yeah. There is something worthwhile, though, to having a character scream chaotic nonsense and then later get the chills when they realise that they themselves had no reasonable way of getting that knowledge. It can be handled well or handled badly, and I agree that 'naming names' can break the illusion a bit. The only example off the top of my head is Khârn screaming about the eightfold path at Istvaan, getting a dozer blade to the chest, and then having little to no memory of it later on but for what his brothers tell him. That's a mild one though, because it wasn't "praise Khorne, he who gives us counter attack!". He's not hitting on the one true reader's-eye truth but something vaguer, something more in-universe (and perhaps unfortunately buddhist...). Khârn didn't know what he was saying or where that was coming from. There's no real plausible deniability that it's something weird, because he is covered in blood, but that feeling of something unsettling and warp-related is worth chasing, I think. Maybe another comparison would be Khayon in the little Wonderworker story, where he's trying to figure out what exactly the Emperor did to Horus. We know it was obliteration in the warp/material world beacuse we have that from the old background. Khayon can pretty much name it but he's butting up against the limits of his knowledge and has no idea about what it entails. In-universe, yeah, that's unnerving. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4576629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Now I want to know how Abby got his grubby hands on his daemon sword. And will he face Sigismund with Draychen or a regular sword? I'm ok if Siggy goes down to draychen after the latest developments. Quick off topic question, would the Custodes in 40k still not trust the Astarte's? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4576642 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Now I want to know how Abby got his grubby hands on his daemon sword. And will he face Sigismund with Draychen or a regular sword? I'm ok if Siggy goes down to draychen after the latest developments. Quick off topic question, would the Custodes in 40k still not trust the Astarte's? You mean after MoM? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4576706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted November 29, 2016 Author Share Posted November 29, 2016 Oh, and big news guys, AD-B stated we should be able to get our hands on The Black Legion next august. Still plenty of time, many things can happen, but it's safe to say mid 2017 should be the time. Rejoice ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4576710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Now I want to know how Abby got his grubby hands on his daemon sword. And will he face Sigismund with Draychen or a regular sword? I'm ok if Siggy goes down to draychen after the latest developments. Quick off topic question, would the Custodes in 40k still not trust the Astarte's? You mean after MoM? :)Yep. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4576711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Even after ten thousand years, the Imperial population still does not trust the Astartes. Why would the Custodes? I wouldn't even say they would be wrong for not. A Legion of them bearing the Emperors personal insignia rampaged across Terra murdering, crushing, and pillaging every piece of infrastructure on the planet and melting down vast amounts of the population into combat stims, then murdering so many more the Imperium doesn't have an accurate headcount. Meanwhile another Legion which was considered by the Emperor to be his best and brightest laid siege to it's walls, killed their brothers and set the Emperors works aflame, then mortally wounded the Emperor himself and led to the death of Malcedor before retreating and leaving a trail of destruction back to the literal gates of hell. If the Emperor's Children and Son's of Horus could turn, why wouldn't any of the others? Space Marines are a dangerous, almost autonomous, faction that was responsible for casting all the Emperors hopes and dreams into ruin while ravaging the world they were sworn to protect. I'd hold a grudge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4576852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 And it's not as if Marines have never fallen to Chaos since the heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4576893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 ADB has really gone the extra mile by knocking out two books in two years. That's an insanely productive two years. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4576936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Quick question too ADB, is there going to be a collectors edition as with ToH? It's lonely in it's daemonic embossed splendour right now Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4576943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 They'd be crazy not to make one, ToH was one of the (very) few BL limited editions to actually be in high demand and sell out quickly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4577216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skarn Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 I'd love if Siggy kills Abby 1v1, then picks up abbys sword and is possessed and assumes his identity. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4577475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 I'd love if Siggy kills Abby 1v1, then picks up abbys sword and is possessed and assumes his identity. Someone get's too much love with Lucius it seems Quick question too ADB, is there going to be a collectors edition as with ToH? It's lonely in it's daemonic embossed splendour right now Where should be one for sure - ToH limited was glories. It was a joy to have it your hands. Where should be some continuity. ADB has really gone the extra mile by knocking out two books in two years. That's an insanely productive two years. Shocked myself with him being a dad and with his love for 'deadlines' And it's not as if Marines have never fallen to Chaos since the heresy. Even A D-B liked it. So I'm with ya Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4577604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 ADB has really gone the extra mile by knocking out two books in two years. That's an insanely productive two years. HAHAHAHAHAdon'tmockmypainyoumeanie. Although, if we're being on the level, um... They, uh, sometimes release my stuff closer together so it looks like I'm faster than I am. Smoke! Mirrors! Illusions! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4577617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 ADB has really gone the extra mile by knocking out two books in two years. That's an insanely productive two years. HAHAHAHAHAdon'tmockmypainyoumeanie. Although, if we're being on the level, um... They, uh, sometimes release my stuff closer together so it looks like I'm faster than I am. Smoke! Mirrors! Illusions! Tzeentch is happy with you Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4577639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted November 30, 2016 Author Share Posted November 30, 2016 After reading TMoM, I'm more than impatient to get my hands on The Black Legion. I want to know why Drach'nyen reacts the way it does to Abaddon and Abaddon only. I want to know who is that mysterious golden skinned guide that leads Abaddon and his men to Uralan. Is that another manifestation of the Astronomican, some avatar of Drach'nyen itself, an emissary of the gods or the husk of a long dead custodian ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4578025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 The golden skinned guide is gonna definitely be connected to the custodian in some way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/13/#findComment-4578034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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