With an eye to the past I look try to divine the future.

[Zodd1888]

Blood Angels WC 5 ability is a better version of Warptime. Hopefully TSons will get some of that.

[Skallagoose]

Blood Angels WC 5 ability is a better version of Warptime. Hopefully TSons will get some of that.

Its only a single model (the caster). Its not better, its different and more restrictive. Great on a dred but not particularly great overall

[Zodd1888]

Oh? Neat. Maybe TSons will be the Daemon Engine legion with some funky buffs.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

If you need character sniping, you better look elsewhere because the odds of firestorm sniping even the weakest characters is practically non-existent.

By itself, yes. However, it's another sniping tool that can choose a target, combined with Infernal Gaze, Gift of Chaos, and whatever Daemon powers you can bring via other detachments or summoning, and if you spam Sorcerers like some of us do, you end up with redundant spells sometimes.

 

Yes, Sniper Marauders are the most consistent character killers we have access to, but this one doesn't require you to build around it.

[Sonoftherubric21]

If you need character sniping, you better look elsewhere because the odds of firestorm sniping even the weakest characters is practically non-existent.

 

Meh I disagree. 

 

Ill gladly toss it especially since my average is 3 sorcerers in a game ive got plenty of extra spell slots since one slot is *always* Ahriman.  Ill gladly toss that + infernal at a 4 wounder character such as a lieutenant...... you roll above average and you just nailed an opposing force multiplier either over 1 or 2 turns. average being 1.5 for both spells then even on stat averages you deal 3 wounds, even a hair above average on one of those spells and youve made it back. 

[BoomWolf]

The problem is, it only works if you are within 18" of said force multiplier, and even then you need to go through multiple spell casting, hoping none gets denied AND that you roll above average for damage.

 

Its simply an irrational bet. why bother with an astronomically low chance to snipe someone (who you have to get close to to even try), rather than going for pure kill power of throwing more smites around and killing the things that are in your path to just murdering the multiplier the old fashioned way? (or killing the things he multiplies. a multiplier without anything to multiply does not do much)

 

Too many hoops, too many cases of failure, too little gain.

Its a bad spell, period. there is no imaginable scenario where simple gaze isn't an outright better spell, and gaze in itself is a mediocre spell at best.

These are NOT sniping tools, as you can't realistically snipe with them. sniping only matters if you got a reasonable chance to pull it off, this is NOT a reasonable chance.

 

The only reason to ever take this spell, is if rubrics/scarabs can make the replacement as well (depends on how it is worded), because for them at least it beats the watered down smite. might be harder to cast, but at least the expected result is slightly better.

[Khannis]

@BoomWolf: I agree completely.

[Paladin777]

Actually, at .94 wounds Per cast the watered down smite is still dealing more damage over time then firestorm... however, the ability to pick your target might give it a little edge. So in the unlikely event that you can exchange The watered down smite for fire storm, I think I will still opt for the smite for any serious games. Though in a friendly game throwing that many D6 us in a psychic phase might be fun!

[Sonoftherubric21]

Thats fair boomwolf; but I also dont play competition games. So ill take that bet lol. 

My Meta is semi-competitive at worst. Usually someone who is "win at all cost" type of gamer is driven out of my meta pretty quickly (and I am referring to people who are petulant children when you play a game and get lucky)  

 

Killing something the old fashioned way can be hard depending on the army in question, I still think there are some possibilities with it that could make for some fun shenanigans if given the right circumstances, and ill probably make use of it a fair bit.  I usually have about 7-9 spell slots in a given army at 2000 points, and thats not including Magnus if i take him so I can certainly toss it on one sorcerer and see where it goes. 

Note; I have used infernal gaze to snipe out a character over 2 turns or so, having a "directed mortal wound" is great IMHO, but again I am abnormally lucky in my games so I can usually make things work others wouldn't bother to try through sure luck if nothing else. 

[Raven1]

Aa long as GW doesnt go with the "fun" high risk high reward gimmick that is this power and use it as a general design theme like in the last chaos space marine codex it should still be good.

[Khannis]

Aa long as GW doesnt go with the "fun" high risk high reward gimmick that is this power and use it as a general design theme like in the last chaos space marine codex it should still be good.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think "high risk - high reward" really fits the bill here. I mean, if it was a WC9 power that did mortal wounds on a 4+ on 9 dice and automatically peril'd on a fail, then I'd get it. But this is just high risk - almost no reward, and you could cast just about any other powers with a better chance to have an impact on the game.

 

High risk - high reward is something professional gamblers do. And they don't play the Roulette for a reason.

[Zodd1888]

That's a power I'd take. Hell, it'd be further balanced by making it reasonably difficult to cast for all but the most potent Psychers. It would, of course, just so happen to be that those Psykers are Thousand Sons.

[Sonoftherubric21]

random side note that just occured to me; the Thousand Sons daemon princes will have a 4++ invul save when the codex drops. 

[Archaeinox]

Just so you know, psykers can't exchange smite for Tz Firestorm, only another power they know. I saw it on the TS page in C.A. and it specifically mentions that.

 

The power is garbage and GW needs to hear it.

[Paladin777]

Agreed!!! If The watered down smite is out-doing it in expected damage, there’s something wrong!!!

[Khannis]

We have to hope for a FAQ in a couple weeks at this point. I just don't understand how this comes to pass with their purported "extensive playtesting" in 8th ed.

[Ahzek451]

The more you speak up on the Facebook posts the better. That’s how they hear things. Make sure you tag “warhammer 40,000” in your post and say something! I chimed in and mentioned the weakness of Tzeentch’s firestorm on a chapter approved post. Speak up an say something if it is bothersome.

[Archaeinox]

You're going to get blocked. 

 

I got blocked by asking about Mortarion and Thousand Sons codex.

 

I will live vicariously through you all, though, and hope that changes are made. 

[Ahzek451]

Meh, I’ve chimed in a lot since the start. So far no block. I also had one of my questions answered for the first 8th edition video upon their return to social media and the world. I think it’s how you go about making the comment that determines block or not.

[Archaeinox]

I was more than amiable, because I wanted info. lmao

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

We have to hope for a FAQ in a couple weeks at this point. I just don't understand how this comes to pass with their purported "extensive playtesting" in 8th ed.

Having been a playtester for RPG's and working on UAT for computer systems projects....I can totally see it. Something about the methodology is off or somebody reported something incorrectly when it was time to turn everything in.

 

Example: Reece from Frontline Gaming mentioned that Guilliman's power level was missed during playtest because he didn't seem that far off when being tested.

 

However, Reece has also separately mentioned many times on video that they got to play with ALL of the Codexes....and he specifically mentioned Drukhari being the most powerful.

 

That threw up a red flag as soon as I heard it.

 

This suggests to me that Guilliman was tested in a meta with all Codexes at once and not the partial release we have now. There are likely mechanics still lurking out there that would restrict him further, possibly disrupting aura abilities and such.

 

Also, maybe there were new units with rules that totally shut him down that didn't make it into the current Codexes because their models' release schedule got shuffled.

 

Or....there could be a situation that I like to refer to as an attack by "Wordcount Dracula." In this situation, which was hilariously common at companies like White Wolf, a mechanic would be playtested (for those game lines where the schedule allowed it) and fine tuned and then some person in editing or layout would truncate it so that the book wouldn't go over wordcount or so that a mandated piece of art would fit and the page count wouldn't be off. Being editors and not game designers, they'd take their best stab at preserving their interpretation of the English of the sentences in question....often with disastrous consequences for gameplay.

 

No one would bother to tell the rules folks. Seriously.

 

So yeah, I can see all kinds of reasons why extensive playtesting can fail.

[Archaeinox]

 

We have to hope for a FAQ in a couple weeks at this point. I just don't understand how this comes to pass with their purported "extensive playtesting" in 8th ed.

Having been a playtester for RPG's and working on UAT for computer systems projects....I can totally see it. Something about the methodology is off or somebody reported something incorrectly when it was time to turn everything in.

 

Example: Reece from Frontline Gaming mentioned that Guilliman's power level was missed during playtest because he didn't seem that far off when being tested.

 

However, Reece has also separately mentioned many times on video that they got to play with ALL of the Codexes....and he specifically mentioned Drukhari being the most powerful.

 

That threw up a red flag as soon as I heard it.

 

This suggests to me that Guilliman was tested in a meta with all Codexes at once and not the partial release we have now. There are likely mechanics still lurking out there that would restrict him further, possibly disrupting aura abilities and such.

 

Also, maybe there were new units with rules that totally shut him down that didn't make it into the current Codexes because their models' release schedule got shuffled.

 

Or....there could be a situation that I like to refer to as an attack by "Wordcount Dracula." In this situation, which was hilariously common at companies like White Wolf, a mechanic would be playtested (for those game lines where the schedule allowed it) and fine tuned and then some person in editing or layout would truncate it so that the book wouldn't go over wordcount or so that a mandated piece of art would fit and the page count wouldn't be off. Being editors and not game designers, they'd take their best stab at preserving their interpretation of the English of the sentences in question....often with disastrous consequences for gameplay.

 

No one would bother to tell the rules folks. Seriously.

 

So yeah, I can see all kinds of reasons why extensive playtesting can fail.

 

 

That's a lot of things to consider, thanks for that analysis from your experience

[The Yncarne]

It could be that or it could be that GW game designers need to learn probabilities or basic statistics.

 

Why throw nine dice and have success with 6s when smite appears to cause more wounds on average? Maybe something to do with a “sacred number” that only oldtards like myself might recognize?

 

And if FLG did play test with all codexes at the same time why expect releases that come out one or two years later to not have any changes, especially if an annual fix is planned?

 

I’m getting bitter again at feeling like I’ve been sold something in bad faith. That’s not productive so I’ll end it here.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Many developers not having a good grasp on probability is a known issue with many game lines, GW included. The old anecdotes about someone having to walk Phil Kelly through the "Indestructible Falcon Grav Tank" problem in 4th Edition over drinks come to mind.

 

There's also Lawrence Baker's recent comments about how he took Guilliman/Razorbacks to Heat 1 of the Grand Tournament partly so that he could sit folks down and show them what was wrong...what they hadn't been quite understanding in all the forum posts and social media comments.

 

This is probably something they hope to fix with community engagement and the living ruleset. They just need to be more careful about the number and clarity of updates and their comprehension of what's being asked by the fans.

 

They also really need to get project managers with software or engineering backgrounds that know how project testing and release can fail. They also need a good statistician and a technical writer who can help them avoid all of the colloquialisms that they use which obscure or distort RAI when it's expressed in RAW.

 

No excuse not to, given that a healthy chunk of their fanbase actually works in those fields or related ones.

[The Yncarne]

Yep. I agree that project management and marketing seem to be opportunities as well.

 

I wish each faction had a studio champion or the studio had to play multiple armies for better perspective.