Black Templar Teaser and Rumors

[Bradeh]

So are hand flamers called pyre pistols now or is that something new?

New variant most likely, akin to the blaster.

[Vardus]

So are hand flamers called pyre pistols now or is that something new?

 

Something new? Maybe along the lines of the SoB flamers being renamed?

[9x19 Parabellum]

ok so Suffer Not the Unclean to Live pretty much guaranteed will never be used as is.

 

It is now the previously underwhelming Knights of Sigismund Superdoctrine, but made even worse by an absolutely horrendously egregious drawback.  If you ever played Warhammer Fantasy with units that had the old Frenzy rules where you had to charge the closest enemy, well, you'll remember how easy it is for your opponent to control your army's movement/charges.  

 

I'm shaking my head in disbelief at how bad this is.  Good grief.

Edited October 8, 2021 by 9x19 Parabellum

[L30n1d4s]

Sigusmund's Seal on a unit of 10 Hammernators, combined with a Bike Chaplain and the +2" charge Litany, makes for a very powerful "Primarch killer" unit... full rerolls to hit and wound with 30 x S8 AP-2 Dmg3 attacks (negate the -1 to hit with the "Fury of the First Strat) should take down Mortarion reliably in one round of melee, especially if you have the "Suffer Not the Unclean to Live" Vow active for 6s to hit auto wounding.

[BitsHammer]

 

So are hand flamers called pyre pistols now or is that something new?

 

Something new? Maybe along the lines of the SoB flamers being renamed?

 

That's my guess. New name means it can have a new statline. Guessing longer range and maybe S4.

ok so Suffer Not the Unclean to Live pretty much guaranteed will never be used as is.

 

It is now the previously underwhelming Knights of Sigismund Superdoctrine, but made even worse by an absolutely horrendously egregious drawback.  If you ever played Warhammer Fantasy with units that had the old Frenzy rules where you had to charge the closest enemy, well, you'll remember how easy it is for your opponent to control your army's movement/charges.  

 

I'm shaking my head in disbelief at how bad this is.  Good grief.

Nah, it's fine. It's not "competetive" but some people like having an excuse to turn your brain off and just charge all the time.

 

Just ask Duncan Rhodes.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Fulkes

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

ok so Suffer Not the Unclean to Live pretty much guaranteed will never be used as is.

 

It is now the previously underwhelming Knights of Sigismund Superdoctrine, but made even worse by an absolutely horrendously egregious drawback.  If you ever played Warhammer Fantasy with units that had the old Frenzy rules where you had to charge the closest enemy, well, you'll remember how easy it is for your opponent to control your army's movement/charges.  

 

I'm shaking my head in disbelief at how bad this is.  Good grief.

Nah, it's fine. It's not "competetive" but some people like having an excuse to turn your brain off and just charge all the time.

 

Just ask Duncan Rhodes.

 

 

Land Raiders are "not competitive".

 

This is way, waaaay worse than "not competitive". Any rule that gives your opponent control over your army's movement is a HUGE drawback, especially when's it's dressed up in the guise of being a 'perk'.   This particular vow's drawback far exceeds the benefit.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

There were always vows you never took, this is just another one of them.

[9x19 Parabellum]

There were always vows you never took, this is just another one of them.

 

There is a difference between some selections being better than others, and "let's take a Drax style famously-huge-turd right in the middle of the Black Templar's new codex and hope they don't notice".

[Banjulhu]

Am I just being thick, or does Devout Push not actually let you do what their description says it should?

 

If I'm not within engagement range, I can only make a normal move, which means I can't finish within engagement range, so no fighting.

If I am already within engagement range, I can pile in, but, couldn't I do that anyway when I fight?

That seems to be the correct interpretation but not necessarily the intent.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I think the intent behind the rule is pretty clear, if it wasn't, that was a God awful way to draft it.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

ok so Suffer Not the Unclean to Live pretty much guaranteed will never be used as is.

 

It is now the previously underwhelming Knights of Sigismund Superdoctrine, but made even worse by an absolutely horrendously egregious drawback.  If you ever played Warhammer Fantasy with units that had the old Frenzy rules where you had to charge the closest enemy, well, you'll remember how easy it is for your opponent to control your army's movement/charges.  

 

I'm shaking my head in disbelief at how bad this is.  Good grief.

Nah, it's fine. It's not "competetive" but some people like having an excuse to turn your brain off and just charge all the time.

 

Just ask Duncan Rhodes.

 

 

Land Raiders are "not competitive".

 

This is way, waaaay worse than "not competitive". Any rule that gives your opponent control over your army's movement is a HUGE drawback, especially when's it's dressed up in the guise of being a 'perk'.   This particular vow's drawback far exceeds the benefit.

 

Eh, it's on brand for the Templars. Fluffy rules aren't always good. If anything it may be a good choice for playing newer players and you only have one army list.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Also am I wrong or is Devout Push also completely neutered now?

 

"...make a Normal Move of up to 3"    This would suggest you can no longer use Devout Push to get into combat as it specifies the additional movement as a "Normal Move".  You can use it to get onto objectives, but that was always available anyway.  And in fact this new restricted movement means you might not be able to use Devout Push in other clever ways, such as to get a unit into cover/out of LOS, or get a unit into a table quarter for Engage All Fronts, etc.  No matter how you slice it, this is a profound nerf.

or

"If that unit is within Engagement Range of any enemy units, make a pile-in move with that unit".   So this stipulates you're already in combat (engagement), which is to say, you've successfully charged.  About the only utility I can see for this is to take large units of Crusader squads and make sure as many of the models in it as possible can fight.  (I assume this is essentially a 2nd pile-in move in addition to the normal pile-in you'd be allowed when you select that unit to actually fight.)

 

I am incredulous at the neutering.

Edited October 8, 2021 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Also am I wrong or is Devout Push also completely neutered now?

 

"...make a Normal Move of up to 3" This would suggest you can no longer use Devout Push to get into combat as it specifies the additional as a "Normal Move". You can use it to get onto objectives.

or

"If that unit is within Engagement Range of any enemy units, make a pile-in move with that unit". So this stipulates you're already in combat (engagement), which is to say, you've successfully charged. About the only utility I can see for this is to take large units of Crusader squads and make sure as many of the models in it as possible can fight.

 

I am incredulous at the neutering.

Oh, at least you found one use for the double pile in. I was struggling!

 

Yep, it's now only useful to move closer to an objective.

This is what I mean when I say War Com's description of it doesn't make sense:

 

"Devout Push enables one unit that’s run out of heretics to stay on the front foot by moving back into Engagement Range and keep the momentum going."

 

It literally does the opposite.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Brother Adelard

[Blindhamster]

Also am I wrong or is Devout Push also completely neutered now?

 

"...make a Normal Move of up to 3"    This would suggest you can no longer use Devout Push to get into combat as it specifies the additional movement as a "Normal Move".  You can use it to get onto objectives, but that was always available anyway.  And in fact this new restricted movement means you might not be able to use Devout Push in other clever ways, such as to get a unit into cover/out of LOS, or get a unit into a table quarter for Engage All Fronts, etc.  No matter how you slice it, this is a profound nerf.

or

"If that unit is within Engagement Range of any enemy units, make a pile-in move with that unit".   So this stipulates you're already in combat (engagement), which is to say, you've successfully charged.  About the only utility I can see for this is to take large units of Crusader squads and make sure as many of the models in it as possible can fight.  (I assume this is essentially a 2nd pile-in move in addition to the normal pile-in you'd be allowed when you select that unit to actually fight.)

 

I am incredulous at the neutering.

honestly seems like thats exactly the intent - to make the huge crusader squads able to make the most of their numbers.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Its almost as if there was something behind Laeroths "we will have to rethink" whenever rules discussions started rdvolving around DP

[9x19 Parabellum]

Its almost as if there was something behind Laeroths "we will have to rethink" whenever rules discussions started rdvolving around DP

 

Here is what I'm "rethinking".

Buy BT models.

Paint them black.

Call them "counts as Blood Angels"

 

:-D

[Banjulhu]

The thinking now being "Why would I ever bother thinking about using Devout Push?“.

[Trignama]

I believe DP is now worded to work as intended. 

Basically we get to double pile in, this can be A LOT of movement when combined with Canticles of Hate (Increases pile ins to 6" movements). 

Before, since the move you were granted by DB was strictly a pile in move, you ALWAYS had to move towards the nearest enemy model, so yes, now that it is a normal move it does mean we can no longer use it to skirt a charge but still get into combat, HOWEVER, we can now be more flexible in it's direction if we need to hold on to an obj. 

So, it isn't AS GOOD, no, but it is no where near being bad, especially the extra pile in, that can swing games. 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Trignama

[Marshal Reinhard]

The thinking now being "Why would I ever bother thinking about using Devout Push?“.

Again, almost as if he had given non-subtle hints to that effect for months now

Edited October 8, 2021 by Reinhard

[9x19 Parabellum]

Large Crusader squads will not live long enough to see use of their design intent, which is to get into combat as a big group and clog everything up with Devout Push, slowly grinding the grist of war to attrition and victory.

 

I'm fairly certain the Primaris "Scouts" (ie, neophytes) will be losing their smokescreen key word.

I also have a sneaking suspicion we are going to get screwed with using Transhuman.  They are either going to fart around with the keywords, thus preventing us from using it, or they are going to charge us more than the standard 2 CP to use it. 

If they also kill our 5+ FnP littany, then it's GG for Crusader Squad.

 

Crusader Squads are a trap.

 

Go 3x5 MSU on Troops.

The best plan is the same as it has been. Bladeguard Veterans.

Only difference now is you don't have to spend 130 points for an impulsor since the Devout Push bomb is DoA.

Edited October 8, 2021 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Banjulhu]

At least the non character relics look fun.

 

Its just a shame that so far most of the rules that have been shown off feel like sidegrades or downgrades.

[Trignama]

Large Crusader squads will not live long enough to see use of their design intent, which is to get into combat as a big group and clog everything up with Devout Push, slowly grinding the grist of war to attrition and victory.

 

I'm fairly certain the Primaris "Scouts" (ie, neophytes) will be losing their smokescreen key word.

I also have a sneaking suspicion we are going to get screwed with using Transhuman.  They are either going to fart around with the keywords, thus preventing us from using it, or they are going to charge us more than the standard 2 CP to use it. 

If they also kill our 5+ FnP littany, then it's GG for Crusader Squad.

 

Crusader Squads are a trap.

 

Go 3x5 MSU on Troops.

The best plan is the same as it has been. Bladeguard Veterans.

Only difference now is you don't have to spend 130 points for an impulsor since the Devout Push bomb is DoA.

I'm going to laugh when this is completely and utterly wrong lol. 

 

There is nothing to suggest our FNP litany is gone, and nothing to suggest that a primaris unit won't get to use xhuman for 2cp as it works now. We are close enough to release that I think we would have caught wind of that. 

 

I also highly doubt that GW is going to make a brand new space marine core unit for a brand new release, bad. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

While not Core, have you seen any Gladiators around since their release...?

[Trignama]

While not Core, have you seen any Gladiators around since their release...?

Actually, I use one personally, and it doesn't perform half bad. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

<snip>

I'm going to laugh when this is completely and utterly wrong lol. 

 

There is nothing to suggest our FNP litany is gone, and nothing to suggest that a primaris unit won't get to use xhuman for 2cp as it works now. We are close enough to release that I think we would have caught wind of that. 

 

I also highly doubt that GW is going to make a brand new space marine core unit for a brand new release, bad. 

 

 

What exactly do you think I'm wrong about?

 

A big crusader squad is going to be minimum 400 pts. probably more with guns and upgrades.  A unit that big will be the focal point for support, so all the HQ characters will be built around supporting it.  Add in that character support and you're looking at an all-in of ~700 points based around this unit.

 

It can't go into LCC anymore because <PRIMARIS>, which means it's foot-slogging.  I suppose you could "Outflank" it (stratagem), but at 20 CP it will cost 3 CP. 

It's going to be a VERY big  footprint, which means keeping it out of LOS is not possible.  YWhile you should be able to get soft cover, the LOS issue means literally your opponent's entire army will focus on it.

 

-There is nothing in the Neophyte modeling to suggest smokescreen, nor is that a fluffy tactic for BT.  I will bet my next paycheck that they are losing <SMOKESCREEN>

-While I admit to a bit of "sky is falling" regarding the 5+ FnP littany, so far it seems they have been hitting all our best stuff from 8th edition with the nerf bat, either lightly or heavily, but hitting it with the nerf bat nonetheless.

-Re: Transhuman....what are you on about??  The Stratagem literally specifies 1 CP for 5 models, and 2 CP for up to 10. The only reason it didn't go beyond that is because when it was written, there was no paradigm for Primaris units ever having more than 10 models.  You really think they are going to let us off with a 20 MAN unit, and not modify the CP expenditure for it? 

As for your last bit:

 

I also highly doubt that GW is going to make a brand new space marine core unit for a brand new release, bad. 

 

You're just really not watching GW's releases if you think this is true.  There is virtually no corollary between "new stuff" and being "good".  Reivers are still garbage 3 years after they came out.  Gladiators are garbage.  The SoB Castigator is garbage.  SoB Paragon Warsuits are...not garbage but certainly overpriced.  Sometimes stuff is good, sometimes it's not.  

Edited October 8, 2021 by 9x19 Parabellum