[BC] A Vulgar Display of Power: OOC/Discussion Thread

[Necronaut]

@Mazer & Lysimachus: I'm looking at both of the character sheets you have sent over. I think I may do some work to hybridize the two, and to check for programming issues. Stay tuned.

[Trokair]

Well that's what I get for sleeping.

 

@Trokair, please consult the Black Crusade Errata (free download) at your leisure. And yes, I believe giving a human character an extra 500XP commensurate with the Astartes would be appropriate.

 

If I am understanding the FAQ on the last page of the errata document correctly, if you have starting talents that have prerequisites that you don’t meet you have to spend your initial experience to get the prerequisites.

 

So that 1500xp spent right there as there are two starting talents my character dose not meet the requisite for.

 

One of them is technically one out of an or choice, so I guess I could pick the other choice, but that is still 750 xp spent to meet starting talents.

[Necronaut]

Okay let me get back in front of my computer so I can find that rule and reread it. I am not a fan of punitive actions like that at character creation on the whole, so let me dig into that. Can you please send me a DM with your character's particulars and xp spend so I can review and provide you with a ruling?

[Lysimachus]

You're creating a Heretek Character, right? As far as I can see, the prerequisites for Armour-Monger are: Int35, Tech-Use and Trade(Armourer)?

 

So Int35 is fairly likely to be got from your starting Rolls? (Maybe if you rolled badly you might need a Simple Int increase at 250XP at Allied cost)

 

Tech-Use is included for free in your Starting Skills.

 

You would have to purchase Trade(Armourer) for 200XP (Known Skill at Allied cost)

 

Then you would be free to select Armour-Monger as one of your free Starting Talents?

 

 

...I think?

[Machine God]

 

 

Also page 355 is one to keep in mind

 

Ah, so you have discovered space Tinder, eh lad?

 

Well, I think it's time for the 'talk'.

 

Don't hold pincers with daemonettes - it leads to other things...

 

 

Daemonettes are p354, I was reffering to Juggernaut on the next page.

 

@Trokair - Maybe Mazer and you are using different mediums. Because on the pdf from the Necro p354 and p355 are Daemonettes of Slaanesh, whilst Juggernauts are on p356.

[Trokair]

You're creating a Heretek Character, right? As far as I can see, the prerequisites for Armour-Monger are: Int35, Tech-Use and Trade(Armourer)?

 

I am making a Renegade.

 

Jaded (Prerequisite Wp40) I have Wp30 and Hip Shooting (prerequisite BS40, AG40) I have Ag 31 that are the problematic. Hip Shooting is one out of a pair of choices, so I could choose the other choice if  had to.

 

The way I read the FAQ was that the same princpile aplies to any starting Talent that you don't meet the prereqauisit for, with Armour-Monger just beign an example.

 

 

snip...

 

@Trokair - Maybe Mazer and you are using different mediums. Because on the pdf from the Necro p354 and p355 are Daemonettes of Slaanesh, whilst Juggernauts are on p356.

Juggernaut is on p355 as per the page number at the pottom of the page. However I have now spotted that the PDF reader calls that page 356 when you go jump to page. Edited March 25, 2022 by Trokair

[Necronaut]

While I'm working on Trokair's request for a ruling, let's get a quick head-count here. If I'm not mistaken we have the following:

 

 

Mazer - CSM Forsaken

Lysimachus - CSM Champion

Machine God - CSM Sorcerer(?)

Trokair - Human Renegade

Xin - Something spiky? (I really hope you can spare just a little time to play with us; if you need/want your character to be more of a supporting character just let me know and I'll be happy to work with you in whatever regard suits you best)

Lord Ikka - CSM Chosen

 

 

... which puts us at six players(!!!). And here I had been led to believe that these boards were a bastion of moral rectitude and all that, when instead they're just riddled with Heresy! This is definitely a combat-slanted party, unsurprisingly, but bear in mind that the Screaming Vortex is semi-hostile territory for anyone trapped within its tides, so having the requisite social skills to navigate its ever-shifting patchwork of alliances will allow more of the party to contribute in role-playing scenarios as opposed to relying entirely upon a single face-man within the group. You have been so warned!

 

Since we have the (up to) six which I foolishly asked for, I'm going to close recruitment for now and eventually convert this thread over to being the OOC thread for the game. Please bear with me in the meantime: it has been quite a while since I last GM'ed a game (and I'm not the most experienced GM at that), so if I flub any of the rules or otherwise make mistakes with regard to the setting or how your character should be represented, please just send me a DM or drop a message in here. Let's keep things civil, if we can.

 

I think I will create the character index thread either later today or sometime this weekend, and probably combine it with the general campaign data-slate so as to cut down on the proliferation of threads to track on this forum. When I create said thread, please hold off on posting anything until I reserve all of my placeholder posts and give you the go-ahead.

 

Also, as this is a game with a focus on Chaos, and what will (likely) turn into your combined efforts to forge your own warband, I will not discourage PVP or intra-party conflict, particularly not if/when characters are tasked with pursuing objectives that may be at odds with their fellows. We're all grown-ups here, and this is a game, so I would respectfully request (again) that we keep things civil here in the OOC thread, and not immediately jump to conclusions or start accusing each other of being vindictive and the like. It is perfectly alright for characters to butt heads or be at each other's throats with the understanding that we, as players, are not doing this to be malicious towards one another. Black Crusade is one of those settings which can invite anti-social behavior in player characters (and often times its players), and I am fully prepared to intervene or let things play out as the circumstances require. I would certainly encourage your characters to find ways to work together to accomplish your goals, but this is not the Deathwatch, nor is it a cadre of professional pirate-mercenaries in the vein of the Iron Gods. At the end of the day, I'm not going to tell you how to play your characters, and I would prefer to avoid any hand-holding. I just want to have a bit of fun.

[Lysimachus]

I am making a Renegade.

Ah, sorry, I misunderstood!

 

And also, :cuss

 

I've just realised that I haven't taken Prerequisites into account and can't have my Tier 2 Minion yet... back to the drawing board!! :(

[Necronaut]

I messaged Trokair about this already, but for the rest of you: I am siding with the errata with regards to your characters needing to meet the requirements, irrespective of how arbitrary they may appear, to utilize the skills and talents at their disposal. I am not doing this to be punitive, and if you feel your character has been unnecessarily burdened at character creation, please shoot me a DM so we can discuss it in detail.

[Machine God]

While I'm working on Trokair's request for a ruling, let's get a quick head-count here. If I'm not mistaken we have the following:

 

 

Mazer - CSM Forsaken

Lysimachus - CSM Champion

Machine God - CSM Sorcerer(?)

Trokair - Human Renegade

Xin - Something spiky? (I really hope you can spare just a little time to play with us; if you need/want your character to be more of a supporting character just let me know and I'll be happy to work with you in whatever regard suits you best)

Lord Ikka - CSM Chosen

 

 

... which puts us at six players(!!!). And here I had been led to believe that these boards were a bastion of moral rectitude and all that, when instead they're just riddled with Heresy! This is definitely a combat-slanted party, unsurprisingly, but bear in mind that the Screaming Vortex is semi-hostile territory for anyone trapped within its tides, so having the requisite social skills to navigate its ever-shifting patchwork of alliances will allow more of the party to contribute in role-playing scenarios as opposed to relying entirely upon a single face-man within the group. You have been so warned!

 

Since we have the (up to) six which I foolishly asked for, I'm going to close recruitment for now and eventually convert this thread over to being the OOC thread for the game. Please bear with me in the meantime: it has been quite a while since I last GM'ed a game (and I'm not the most experienced GM at that), so if I flub any of the rules or otherwise make mistakes with regard to the setting or how your character should be represented, please just send me a DM or drop a message in here. Let's keep things civil, if we can.

@Necro - Yes I'm working on a CSM Sorcerer and I think I've got it mostly nailed down.

 

It's a good job that you didn't ask for Seven players, isn't that right Grandfather?

[Necronaut]

 

@Necro - Yes I'm working on a CSM Sorcerer and I think I've got it mostly nailed down.

 

It's a good job that you didn't ask for Seven players, isn't that right Grandfather?

 

My (foolish) request for six players should tell you where my true loyalties lie.

 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Necronaut

[Machine God]

I messaged Trokair about this already, but for the rest of you: I am siding with the errata with regards to your characters needing to meet the requirements, irrespective of how arbitrary they may appear, to utilize the skills and talents at their disposal. I am not doing this to be punitive, and if you feel your character has been unnecessarily burdened at character creation, please shoot me a DM so we can discuss it in detail.

 

So we have to have the Attribute Scores and / or traits necessary to have the Skills, Talents and Traits that we get from Race and Archetype?

 

Does this include Traits from Legon Power Armour?

 

I'll have a check through.

[Necronaut]

@MG that is a good question. My gut-feeling, knee-jerk reaction is no, that your character needs to have the inherent characteristic/skill/talent/trait sans Power Armor to qualify for whatever it is you're wanting to acquire or use, and I'm pretty sure this is supported by the rules (in spirit if now RAW), but I don't know where it's written exactly.

[Lysimachus]

Actually, now that I think more about it I'm not sure...

 

For example, Bulging Biceps is a Talent that all Space Marines just get, but the Prerequisite for it is Str 45.

 

But 15 is quite a good 2d10 roll, so not everyone is going to meet that requirement right off at Character creation.

 

I can't see logically that you don't get the benefit of it unless/until you've got your Str up to that required level?

 

 

Therefore, surely the Prerequisite is for Characters that don't get that Talent automatically as a starting ability? Like how in DW Starting Skills are given an XP cost (even though everyone already has them included for free) it's there to help stat up Characters that don't have it included?

[Necronaut]

Fair point with regard to bulging biceps. However, as a counter-point Astartes all inherently have the Unnatural Strength (4) trait which, I know, serves a separate mechanical purpose but allows some hand-waving with regard to their unique physiology. Additionally this is a talent granted by their race/species (Astartes) as opposed to their archetype (vocation/profession). It's a nature vs nurture issue here.

 

I will think on the matter some more, but I feel inclined to stick with my ruling for the time being. I'm not especially happy about it, but I need to draw a line somewhere.

 

My official ruling, in brief: skills/traits/talents granted by your character's race (at the time of creation) are exempt from having to meet all of the necessary requirements; the opposite applies with regard to your character's archetype, just so I'm being consistent (even though this does massively favor the Astartes).

 

Fear not: I may be a cruel and unfair master, but it's not like I'm out to get you.

 

Edit: @Lysimachus, I'm pretty sure this is why the character sheets for 40K rpg always differentiate between armoured and unarmoured stats? At least that's my interpretation.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Necronaut

[Xin Ceithan]

Thank you for the kind words! 

I am most certainly cooking  up something  spiky! :p

 

I‘d also very much love to contribute more / more reliably but I with things being what they are, I am both happy to contribute at all and that you guys still put with me :)

 

Therefore I‘d be totally ok with something that is in sort of more supportive role, especially since I enjoy the stories most and am looking forward to see how  things develop on the more warps side of the galaxy and how the characters are going to develop along the Path. Especially if it helps keeping the game in flow..

 

( In somewhat related news and as to the „den of heretics“, I just took the Legion for you test thingy on the new HH site and it assigned me to… the Dark Angels ?! Really ?! ) 

 

[Necronaut]

Is there anyone else well-versed in the 40K RPG rules lurking in here who would like to weigh in on the matter with regard to characters meeting minimum talent requirements at character creation? I'm open to any and all input.

[Machine God]

Well I just noticed that I have to spend XP to get the Psychic Power Talent and then more XP for the actual Psychic Power.

 

My character did however meet the pre-requisites for all of his Talents.

[Necronaut]

Well I just noticed that I have to spend XP to get the Psychic Power Talent and then more XP for the actual Psychic Power.

 

My character did however meet the pre-requisites for all of his Talents.

 

@MG please send me a DM with your character build thus far and we can go through all of it in detail. Additionally, the way purchasing psychic powers works in BC is, yes, they are talents, but they have a fixed cost which varies from power to power per the psychic power's description under the psychic powers chapter, which will further spell out all of the necessary requirements to manifest said power. The point being you don't get charged twice to purchase a psychic power.

 

To whit (see p130 under Chapter IV: Talents and Traits):

 

"PYCHIC POWER

Tier: 1

Prerequisite: Psyker

Either through training or natural development, the character has learned an additional Psychic Power. This power must be selected from one of the powers presented in Chapter VI: Psychic Powers. The experience cost and requirements for psychic powers are not the same as other Talents (as detailed on page 77) and can instead be found in Chapter VI: Psychic Powers. Characters must have the Psyker trait to take this talent."

 

 

Also, you start off with an extra 500XP (for free/hard-baked into the class) to spend only on psychic powers at character creation. It's my understanding that this bonus XP is use-it-or-lose-it.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Necronaut

[Machine God]

Will DM.

[Mazer Rackham]

[sNIP] as to the „den of heretics“, I just took the Legion for you test thingy on the new HH site and it assigned me to… the Dark Angels ?! Really ?! [sNIP]

 

You don't know just how much that makes sense.  :D

 

I took the same test and got Imperial Fists.

 

A True Son, is a True Son. ;)

 

Is there anyone else well-versed in the 40K RPG rules lurking in here who would like to weigh in on the matter with regard to characters meeting minimum talent requirements at character creation? I'm open to any and all input.

 

I saw a wise old man on a hill once...any help? 

 

The FAQ certainly gives the RAW appearance that each talent prerequisite should be bought to allow the correct pool of abilities and chain of construction.  I have a feeling that this is where the 7,000xp also comes in, and that something - somewhere in the book was removed or changed at the last minute.  I still stand by the fact I think this was for NPC's and character building for other books, custom specialties etc, etc.

 

If I may offer my advice, I would treat all the skills as part of a starting kit as included by either experience, genehancement, expertise, past atrocities or livelihoods.  ANYTHING outside that starter kit: XP please, otherwise it makes your choices quite meaningless, and runs the risk of characters starting without traits and talents they really should have.

 

My tuppence, add your salt.  ;)

[Necronaut]

Do you consider the "starter kit," as you put it, to be the character race + archetype or just the character race? That 7,000xp throw-away line is certainly quite frustrating because things don't map out quite correctly. Black Crusade is a good toolbox, but there are definitely severe gaps that even the errata does not properly cover.

 

Edit: The reason I bring this up is in Deathwatch, everyone starts off with an identical pool of skills, talents and traits due to being Astartes which are further differentiated depending on their class/archetype selection. BUT I have not actually checked against each of the classes to see if it's possible to somehow not qualify for something provided by your class if starting at 0 XP Rank 1.

 

I'm open to ignoring the RAW as presented in the errata, because yes it's not especially nice to penalize a player/character for an unlucky set of rolls at character creation, but it is sort of (in a way) fair, if a bit brutal and punitive. I just want to understand your argument better.

 

Edit 2: having re-read your post, Mazer, I understand your meaning. Let me chew on that for a bit; I may have been hasty in my initial ruling.

 

Edit 3: the example provided in the errata is actually a terrible example, as the Heretek in question should actually be able to meet any/all of the necessary requirements as spelled out. This is leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Necronaut

[Mazer Rackham]

1) Do you consider the "starter kit," as you put it, to be the character race + archetype or just the character race? 2) That 7,000xp throw-away line is certainly quite frustrating because things don't map out quite correctly. Black Crusade is a good toolbox, but there are definitely severe gaps that even the errata does not properly cover.

 

1) Yes, both.  To my mind, you can't have one without the other; the Race defines your standard abilities and traits, whereas the Archetype defines your Class.  The choices within the Kit define where your Character has walked, but keep you in scope of the Archetype.

 

Example:  You start with a Bolter.  Except now you have to pay XP for the pistol grip, barrel and trigger...

 

But yes, after the 'kit' XP, thank you come again.

 

2) Yes, I agree 100% - thankfully we have good GM's

Edited March 25, 2022 by Mazer Rackham

[Necronaut]

 

1) Do you consider the "starter kit," as you put it, to be the character race + archetype or just the character race? 2) That 7,000xp throw-away line is certainly quite frustrating because things don't map out quite correctly. Black Crusade is a good toolbox, but there are definitely severe gaps that even the errata does not properly cover.

 

1) Yes, both.  To my mind, you can't have one without the other; the Race defines your standard abilities and traits, whereas the Archetype defines your Class.  The choices within the Kit define where your Character has walked, but keep you in scope of the Archetype.

 

Example:  You start with a Bolter.  Except now you have to pay XP for the pistol grip, barrel and trigger...

 

After that, XP, thank you come again.

 

2) Yes, I agree 100% - thankfully we have good GM's

 

 

You make a compelling argument. FFG's ruling in the errata is actually quite unclear and extremely punitive RAW. To be fair, this has never come up as an issue in any previous game of Black Crusade I have ever played; I should have just stayed the course.

 

I really wonder sometimes what their game designers were thinking. And yet, I keep playing their RPGs... It must be some character flaw on my part.

 

@Trokair: I'm rescinding my previous ruling. Your character has what he has, by dint of courage, know-how or bloody-minded determination -- spend your starting XP as ye will.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Necronaut

[Trokair]

I seem to have opened a can of worm with my questions, I am so sorry, that was not my intent.

 

I guess I better go and reread what to do with the now available XP, aside from getting Weapon Training (Plasma).

 

 

I am having a little trouble getting my head around additional starting equipment as step 6 of character creation. I think it means I can get up to two things (as my infamy is 22) that are Rare (or more common than that). For additional weapons and equipment this makes sense. But for upgrades to starting equipment I am less sure.

Necronaut mention that there would be a guide, so I will await that post to see if that clears things up.