Wh40k 10th Edition Space Marine Index

[Lord_Valorion]

What have they done to Vanguard Vets?????!!!! :cuss:

[Indy Techwisp]

I note the only Khan in the Index (RIP Khan on a Bike) gives [Lance] to the units he leads.

What does [Lance] do exactly?

[LostTemplar]

Dreadnoughts are still there.

 

I find it wierd that captains can now have bolt pistol, power fist and MW bolt rifle.

 

And the MW bolt rifle is inferior to a regular bolt rifle.

 

What am I missing?

[TrawlingCleaner]

3 minutes ago, Lord_Valorion said:

What have they done to Vanguard Vets?????!!!!

 

 

(I loved the Accursed Weapons change)

[Kallas]

25 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

So they chose to remove the Primaris keyword from only some but left it on others? Strange choice.

Yeah, this Index is an inconsistent mess.

 

Primaris Captains and Captains are identical, except in the wargear options and what units they can go on. Why can't a Captain join a unit of Sternguard? Why can't a Primaris Captain join a Tactical Squad? It's baffling and utterly stupid: it's clearly not a balancing issue about their buffs, because they're identical, and their available wargear options that are equivalent are also identical - if someone wants to give their Primaris Captain a Thunder Hammer, bloody let them and just consolidate the two datasheets! Similarly, we've got all Primaris/Firstborn characters being almost perfectly identical...except the Techmarines, who have different Wounds, why?

 

This isn't an anti-Primaris rant, this is GW making an absolute mess of things when they could have made it actually streamlined: instead there are units that can be joined by one Captain with Plasma Pistol and Power Fist , but an otherwise identical Primaris Captain with Plasma Pistol and Power Fist (and the exact same abilities) cannot join them - it's completely stupid. Further to this, we have the Chaplain on Bike and Captain on Bike: the Chaplain has the Primaris keyword, but can join Firstborn units; and vice versa for the Captain, so it's completely inconsistent!

 

For reducing bloat, we now have more units split out into separate datasheets: Land Speeders are now three different datasheets of 1 speeder, instead of one single datasheet of 1-3 speeders. I know it's so they can give them different abilities, but they really didn't need to. Same for the Assault Squad: JP and non-JP have a different ability and Movement, but they could literally put that under the Wargear Abilities section ("If this unit has Jump Packs, it has the Hammer of Wrath ability and Mv12", otherwise it has Chainsword Doctrine and Mv6""). It's insane that they claimed that they were making the game 'simplified but not simple' and then they go and clutter it up with even more guff.

 

Oh, and I guess  you any Firstborn players who wanted to use Sternguard, now only Primaris characters get to go with them. And Vanguard get utterly gutted, even more so than Tyranid Warriors (Warrior weapons were at least relatively similar, even if they still had a different purpose between them; Thunder Hammers and Chainswords are not). Then, as someone has pointed out: Tactical Squads must be 10-strong. Why?! Because it's 10 models in the box?  sake, this is so stupid. 

 

Honestly, this Index is a mess and I hate it. That's not to say it's weak, it's just inconsistent and poorly thought out.

[Morovir]

It's to cater for the Dark Angels Company Master model I'd guess.

 

EDIT - apologies, answering LostTemplar's question about the power fist/bolt rifle combo.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Morovir

[Arkhanist]

30 minutes ago, ruralguardhipcat said:

Minor thing, but looks like Devestator marine have gained ability to take Heavy Flamers. I think that is new 

 

Blood Angels had that as an option for some years, including in 9th. It was because the BA tactical squad came with a heavy flamer option IIRC. So now BA use the same datasheets as standard marines I guess it got included for everybody now; same way the storm raven,  brutalis (upscaled furioso) and gladiator reaper (floaty Baal predator) are now chapter agnostic.

[Dark Legionnare]

6 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Yeah, this Index is an inconsistent mess.

 

Primaris Captains and Captains are identical, except in the wargear options and what units they can go on. Why can't a Captain join a unit of Sternguard? Why can't a Primaris Captain join a Tactical Squad? It's baffling and utterly stupid: it's clearly not a balancing issue about their buffs, because they're identical, and their available wargear options that are equivalent are also identical - if someone wants to give their Primaris Captain a Thunder Hammer, bloody let them and just consolidate the two datasheets! Similarly, we've got all Primaris/Firstborn characters being almost perfectly identical...except the Techmarines, who have different Wounds, why?

 

This isn't an anti-Primaris rant, this is GW making an absolute mess of things when they could have made it actually streamlined: instead there are units that can be joined by one Captain with Plasma Pistol and Power Fist , but an otherwise identical Primaris Captain with Plasma Pistol and Power Fist (and the exact same abilities) cannot join them - it's completely stupid. Further to this, we have the Chaplain on Bike and Captain on Bike: the Chaplain has the Primaris keyword, but can join Firstborn units; and vice versa for the Captain, so it's completely inconsistent!

 

For reducing bloat, we now have more units split out into separate datasheets: Land Speeders are now three different datasheets of 1 speeder, instead of one single datasheet of 1-3 speeders. I know it's so they can give them different abilities, but they really didn't need to. Same for the Assault Squad: JP and non-JP have a different ability and Movement, but they could literally put that under the Wargear Abilities section ("If this unit has Jump Packs, it has the Hammer of Wrath ability and Mv12", otherwise it has Chainsword Doctrine and Mv6""). It's insane that they claimed that they were making the game 'simplified but not simple' and then they go and clutter it up with even more guff.

 

Oh, and I guess  you any Firstborn players who wanted to use Sternguard, now only Primaris characters get to go with them. And Vanguard get utterly gutted, even more so than Tyranid Warriors (Warrior weapons were at least relatively similar, even if they still had a different purpose between them; Thunder Hammers and Chainswords are not). Then, as someone has pointed out: Tactical Squads must be 10-strong. Why?! Because it's 10 models in the box?  sake, this is so stupid. 

 

Honestly, this Index is a mess and I hate it. That's not to say it's weak, it's just inconsistent and poorly thought out.

The sternguard was the first thing I noticed. My Rynn's World era Crimson fists with two 10-man Sterns are sad about the character front.  I'm more confused about the combi-weapons...

I guess I missed any hullabaloo about the combi changes that a quick search here on B&C shows plenty of folks grumbling about.

That is a bit..., frankly, "dumb", to me. Like, why not an "anti-armor" combi weapon and "Anti-infantry" one to cover the mixture of melta & grav (armor) or plas & flamer (infantry) options? Baby bathwater moment to me I guess...

Edited June 9, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[Bradeh]

Just now, Kallas said:

Yeah, this Index is an inconsistent mess.

 

Primaris Captains and Captains are identical, except in the wargear options and what units they can go on. Why can't a Captain join a unit of Sternguard? Why can't a Primaris Captain join a Tactical Squad? It's baffling and utterly stupid: it's clearly not a balancing issue about their buffs, because they're identical, and their available wargear options that are equivalent are also identical - if someone wants to give their Primaris Captain a Thunder Hammer, bloody let them and just consolidate the two datasheets! Similarly, we've got all Primaris/Firstborn characters being almost perfectly identical...except the Techmarines, who have different Wounds, why?

 

This isn't an anti-Primaris rant, this is GW making an absolute mess of things when they could have made it actually streamlined: instead there are units that can be joined by one Captain with Plasma Pistol and Power Fist , but an otherwise identical Primaris Captain with Plasma Pistol and Power Fist (and the exact same abilities) cannot join them - it's completely stupid. Further to this, we have the Chaplain on Bike and Captain on Bike: the Chaplain has the Primaris keyword, but can join Firstborn units; and vice versa for the Captain, so it's completely inconsistent!

 

For reducing bloat, we now have more units split out into separate datasheets: Land Speeders are now three different datasheets of 1 speeder, instead of one single datasheet of 1-3 speeders. I know it's so they can give them different abilities, but they really didn't need to. Same for the Assault Squad: JP and non-JP have a different ability and Movement, but they could literally put that under the Wargear Abilities section ("If this unit has Jump Packs, it has the Hammer of Wrath ability and Mv12", otherwise it has Chainsword Doctrine and Mv6""). It's insane that they claimed that they were making the game 'simplified but not simple' and then they go and clutter it up with even more guff.

 

Oh, and I guess  you any Firstborn players who wanted to use Sternguard, now only Primaris characters get to go with them. And Vanguard get utterly gutted, even more so than Tyranid Warriors (Warrior weapons were at least relatively similar, even if they still had a different purpose between them; Thunder Hammers and Chainswords are not). Then, as someone has pointed out: Tactical Squads must be 10-strong. Why?! Because it's 10 models in the box?  sake, this is so stupid. 

 

Honestly, this Index is a mess and I hate it. That's not to say it's weak, it's just inconsistent and poorly thought out.

 

The Primaris/Firstborn being one is out the window when they released that article saying Rhinos can't take Primaris. Tacticus/Phobos is just the more subtle way of saying Primaris now. Sternguard are basically Primaris. I think GW wanted to protect certain sculpts/units like Terminators/Land Raiders so they made it seem like Firstborn is back. Nothing has changed though if you look at any marketing or artwork in books it's all Primaris + certain protected sculpts like new Terminators, etc. 

[Subtleknife]

Can't say I like many of these changes. 10th seems to be overly restrictive. Psychic powers are dumbed down, I can only decide to join characters to certain units.

 

There are some great changes in 10th don't get me wrong, but it feels like 1 step forward 2 steps back in a way.

[ruralguardhipcat]

3 minutes ago, Arkhanist said:

 

Blood Angels had that as an option for some years, including in 9th. It was because the BA tactical squad came with a heavy flamer option IIRC. So now BA use the same datasheets as standard marines I guess it got included for everybody now; same way the storm raven,  brutalis (upscaled furioso) and gladiator reaper (floaty Baal predator) are now chapter agnostic.

Well, as a Salamander player suits me nicely. I've got four Heavy Flamers for Sternguard squads that have just disappeared as an option, but can transfer happily to a Heavy Flamer Devestator squad!

[MadEdric]

So with Tactical and scouts being 10 man squads, how does the razorback and speeder transports work?  Both have a transport of 6. I see no mention of being able to combat squad units.

[Firedrake Cordova]

I'm slightly surprised there's no venerable dreadnought profile, unless I missed it  

 

I'm also a little surprised that composition of the command squad is limited, so you have to have a company champion and ancient, unless I'm misreading it (I've always just had a sergeant, apothecary, and 3 marines).

 

Also, Tactical Squads have lost their combat squad party trick, which means that Razorbacks are somewhat limited? (I'm also surprised that the Razorback kept the twin assault cannon option)

[Kallas]

1 minute ago, MadEdric said:

So with Tactical and scouts being 10 man squads, how does the razorback and speeder transports work?

It doesn't. Tactical Squads can't use them until they've lost 4 models now. It's ridiculous.

1 minute ago, Firedrake Cordova said:

I'm slightly surprised there's no venerable dreadnought profile, unless I missed it  

Yeah, you're right, no Venerable Dreadnought option. Just the regular Dread, which we know is going to Legends.

[Kilamandaros]

Weird how executioners can take FirstBorn but Impulsors can't...

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

My Ultima Founding Successor Chapter are happy. I can see why it must be frustrating for Firstborn players though. On a lot of legends being present, these are their legends 10th datasheets, correct? Those legends units won't get an update in 10th following this?

[Dark Legionnare]

5 minutes ago, Bradeh said:

 

The Primaris/Firstborn being one is out the window when they released that article saying Rhinos can't take Primaris. Tacticus/Phobos is just the more subtle way of saying Primaris now. Sternguard are basically Primaris. I think GW wanted to protect certain sculpts/units like Terminators/Land Raiders so they made it seem like Firstborn is back. Nothing has changed though if you look at any marketing or artwork in books it's all Primaris + certain protected sculpts like new Terminators, etc. 

Oh man, I just went back and read that 'Tacitus' on the sternguard when you mentioned it.

Welp, that's our first hard house-rule right out of the gate before the edition is already out. :cuss: GW.  Across the 8 marine armies in our playgroup, at least 5 (my own crimson fists included) have sternguard that love sailing around in rhinos and razorbacks.

[ruralguardhipcat]

I think Veteran Intercessors have also gone (although easy to run as regular Intercessors)

[Orange Knight]

Gravis Captain with Artificer armour is extremely durable and also more threatening offensively than any other Captain. Will probably be a staple unit.

 

The Apothecary will be useful in a squad of Hellblasters as he can bring them back after they blow themselves up from turn to turn.

 

Heavy Intercessors will probably outlast any other Battleline unit. Custodian Guard don't have battleline, unless I'm mistaken?

 

Landraider is probably the best tank and transport. The Repulsors are also really good as is the Gladiator. The Rhino chassis is too restrictive.

 

The Leader ability is super restrictive. Certain characters can't even join units unless they have the correct wargear. A Captain can't join Hellblasters unless he has a Plasma Pistol!?

 

The Redemptor Chassis Dreadnoughts are all great. Brutalis weapon options seem more well balanced.

 

[Arkhanist]

At least they consolidated down all the repulsor diddy weapons (anything under a heavy bolter) into a single 'defensive array' with 10A. I might take one now I don't need to waste 10 minutes every time it shoots!

[Bradeh]

 

Heavy Intercessors, Hellblasters and Eradicators all have one weapon profile now, 

[OrkPlayer137]

A few things I noticed:

• Tactical squads can now take two special weapons instead of one special + one heavy!
• Firstborn Apothecaries can swap for a different type of pistol, not just bolt pistol.
• Rhino no longer has an option for second storm bolter.
• Marneus Calgar must be taken with bodyguard - not good for anyone with the older model, or anyone who built extra Victrix Guard models.
• Inferno pistols and hand flamers available to a lot of firstborn units (not restricted to Blood Angels as they sometimes were before).
• Bike squads have maximum size 6 (used to be 10, or maybe it changed in 9th edition and I forgot)
• Tyrannic War Veterans have minimum squad size 5 (used to be 4, as only 4 models available).
• Old Ultramarines Honour Guard unit not included - surprising when they only went out of production very recently, and Tyrannic War Veterans and other Ultramarines characters are included.
• Firstborn Lieutenant and Captain on Bike datasheets have grav pistol and thunder hammer entries, yet do not actually have those options available!
• Firstborn Lieutenant cannot take boltgun with power weapon, but can take boltgun with other melee weapons. Seems an odd restriction.
• Contemptor Dreadnoughts are included, but only with the basic weapon options from the old plastic kit.
   

Edited June 9, 2023 by OrkPlayer137

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

2 minutes ago, ruralguardhipcat said:

I think Veteran Intercessors have also gone (although easy to run as regular Intercessors)

 

You can also run the Bolt Rifle Veteran Intercessors as Sternguard using the "Sternguard Bolt Rifle" profile. Doesn't work for the Assault variant though.

[Kilamandaros]

Am I missing something anyone see the Bladeguard captain & lieutenant? Or are they just considered part of the Bladeguard squad now somehow?

[Bradeh]

3 minutes ago, Lord Nord said:

 

You can also run the Bolt Rifle Veteran Intercessors as Sternguard using the "Sternguard Bolt Rifle" profile. Doesn't work for the Assault variant though.

 

I'm sure the updated Vanguard Veterans will be one of the new releases, Chainsword will probably be an option, the jump pack or not who knows. 

 

Just now, Kilamandaros said:

Am I missing something anyone see the Bladeguard captain & lieutenant? Or are they just considered part of the Bladeguard squad now somehow?

 

 

They are just wargear options for Primaris Captains and Lieutenants. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Bradeh