Wh40k 10th Edition Space Marine Index

[DemonGSides]

1 minute ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I agree. Laying it out in a PDF like this makes the faction look ridiculous. 

 

I'm fully in favour of simply dropping all Firstborn units at this point (with a few exceptions) in the interest of this being an approachable faction and streamlining it for the benefit of the game.

 

Imagine a new player approaching this army, it's staggering and overwhelming, but not in a positive way.

 

Of course not everyone agrees with this, but the negatives are there for all to see.

 

Good lord you are a brave man. Hope your storm hatches are battened down because you're in for a tsunami of anger any second now. 

[CL_Mission]

2 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I agree. Laying it out in a PDF like this makes the faction look ridiculous. 

 

I'm fully in favour of simply dropping all Firstborn units at this point (with a few exceptions) in the interest of this being an approachable faction and streamlining it for the benefit of the game.

 

Imagine a new player approaching this army, it's staggering and overwhelming, but not in a positive way.

 

Of course not everyone agrees with this, but the negatives are there for all to see.

 They certainly need to do something. Even as someone who has been collecting Space Marines for a long time I feel overwhelmed. I'm not sure I would go so far as to drop all Firstborn units but there's certainly some that could be trimmed. 

 

[Kallas]

1 minute ago, CL_Mission said:

They certainly need to do something.

It would have helped if they didn't expand the number of datasheets present (eg, Land Speeders being split instead of consolidated); and things like Primaris Captains and Captains being separate, instead of just being one sheet. There are so many datasheets that could be consolidated easily.

[Squark]

1 hour ago, redmapa said:

I couldn't find the Venerable Dread sheet, does anyone know the page number for it?.

 

1 hour ago, Malekor said:

To add salt to the wound, they added an announced unit going to legends (The standard dread) and even gave it an interesting aura

They had previously said the Venerable Dreadnought kit should be used as the main Firstborn Dreadnought. They never said it was going to legends to my knowledge.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Squark

[CL_Mission]

9 minutes ago, Kallas said:

It would have helped if they didn't expand the number of datasheets present (eg, Land Speeders being split instead of consolidated); and things like Primaris Captains and Captains being separate, instead of just being one sheet. There are so many datasheets that could be consolidated easily.

That's a good point. Speeders old and new could certainly be consolidated, though I imagine the old ones will be up on the chopping bock soon enough. Gladiator too could be one profile and probably the predator as well.

[Arkangilos]

Overall I am pleased with this. 
The only things I know I'll house rule off the bat:

* Rhinos will be able to take Tacticus an Phobos equipped units.
* Combat Squads.

[Scribe]

41 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I agree. Laying it out in a PDF like this makes the faction look ridiculous. 

 

I'm fully in favour of simply dropping all Firstborn units at this point (with a few exceptions) in the interest of this being an approachable faction and streamlining it for the benefit of the game.

 

Imagine a new player approaching this army, it's staggering and overwhelming, but not in a positive way.

 

Of course not everyone agrees with this, but the negatives are there for all to see.

 

Next edition.

[Rain]

Or they could release Firstborn Space Marines as their own book, with FB using HH kits pulling double duty. I might actually start a Space Marine army if this ever happened, but it won't because it would be "confusing to new players" or somesuch nonsense. That said, I agree that it's getting a bit silly trying to force two armies into 1 book, with most units being direct replacements/overlaps.

[crimsondave]

22 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Overall I am pleased with this. 
The only things I know I'll house rule off the bat:

* Rhinos will be able to take Tacticus an Phobos equipped units.
* Combat Squads.

I’m just going to house rule Rhinos can take any unit that counts as 1 model in a transport.  As is, the rule feels sales driven anyway.

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

overall reaction: meh.

Really annoyed they dropped Lt. With Jump Pack (given I have a couple I enjoy using), and also that Phobos captains can join Scout units but no other phobos characters can (I've been hoping and dreaming for Phobos Librarian w/ Scouts, and now... no.). 

 

Land Speeders being split up instead of consolidated as weapon options is an Interesting Choice from a 'streamlining' perspective. 

 

Some stuff looks interesting, but outside of Boarding Action and maybe a mechanized list I don't see myself playing marines much this edition. Which is a shame, cos I only played them the once this last edition. (edit: and mainly because I have a squad that will actually work as on-foot assault marines, and a good number of terminators to throw at the problem also.)

 

Guess I'll just have to wait til the Necrons index to roll around to see if I'm happy with that, otherwise quite honestly I'm going to be looking at maybe 3rd or 6th edition instead.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch

[Marshal Reinhard]

Like emperor allmighty this document is THICC. Guess it would be when theres 8 different captains. As many chaplains, lieutenants etc. Some sheets like assault marines were also split to two, with and without jump packs.

 

Honestly feel like the distinction between tacitus and classic marine characters shoulda been dropped. Just have any differences be in gear options only.

 

But yeah. Gonna take a while to take it in

Edited June 9, 2023 by Marshal Reinhard

[Kilamandaros]

Gah have to decide who to leave out of the Bladeguard between captain, lieutenant & ancient, wish you could take all 3 so bad...what a doom squad that would be charging out of a Land Raider...

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Its odd that any build of Primaris Lieutenant can join a Bladeguard unit, but the Primaris Captain has to have the relic shield?

[Blurf]

1 hour ago, Slips said:

For GW saying they were going to be reducing the amount of re-rolls across the board, Space Marines sure do have a lot of rules that let them re-roll.

Keep in mind that, in 9th, competitive armies had 100% of every unit that was expected to do meaningful damage to the enemy rerolling AT LEAST hits and wound rolls of 1 for the first 3 turns of the game.

Going from 100% rerolls all the time to 80% rerolls sometimes is still a big change.

8 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Like emperor allmighty this document is THICC. Guess it would be when theres 8 different captains. As many chaplains, lieutenants etc. Some sheets like assault marines were also split to two, with and without jump packs.

 

Honestly feel like the distinction between tacitus and classic marine characters shoulda been dropped. Just have any differences be in gear options only.

 

But yeah. Gonna take a while to take it in

They should have had 3 data sheets. The basic Captain, The basic Librarian, The basic support character.

'This is a Chaplain." You mean support character? 'He's on a bike' hmmm...I don't think he is...nope, don't see it.

[tinpact]

You know, I've always said I don't think we have enough land speeder profiles.

 

VanVets went from being one of the best units in the codex by a long shot to just sort of "eh," especially compared to assault squads, which are actually looking pretty good now.

 

The character and Leader options are just kind of mystifying

 

Overall, it looks like there aren't a lot of situations where you're shooting yourself in the foot by taking a certain unit, which is nice.

[Cruor Vault]

3 hours ago, OrkPlayer137 said:

Sicarius and Cassius can be added to Sternguard squads! I think that's the only case I've found of mixing Firstborn characters and Primaris units.

You can add Phobos Captains to scout squads. 

[Arkhanist]

There's still gaps - no equivalent of assault marines or vanguard veterans for example, or several of the devastator options. (and the primaris missile guys are urgggh). And BA death company and sanguinary guard - the total backbone of the faction in 9th - are firstborn only still.

 

There's plenty of consolidation they could do with the current datasheets though, and even combine a bunch of firstborn and primaris units ala sternguard* under one datasheet. But stuff like bikes, land speeders, captains, lieutenants, apothecaries, chaplains could all share sheets with just the back having the appropriate loadout options - it's not like there's not space, and just ditch the firstborn/primaris split in most cases AND the 'this kit has THIS datasheet, and that kit with slightly differentoptions gets THAT sheet'. You could even do the same for most of the dreadnoughts. People can play with old models with current datasheets if they want to (just as you can currently play with the ancient, tiny RTB01 marines) or use their bigger cousins if they prefer the proportions. Block rhinos from taking gravis and terminators, sure, but why can they not take phobos and tacitus when land raiders can? It's stupid.

 

Hell, even for primaris you could probably combine stuff like hellblasters and infernus into one sheet, and it's mad to have so many different damn phobos lieutentants.

 

Sure some base sizes might be different, but they didn't care about when they did the bump to 32mm for firstborn (and 40mm for terminators) and base size has never been consistent in the official rules. But they are working SOO hard to make everyone buy a new army of primaris even if they don't want to, without wanting to deal with the backlash that dropping firstborn entirely would rightly engender, so this monstrosity of a list is the result.

 

* obviously without doing the whole combi-weapons thing.

[Ammonius]

I think the only thing that I'm dissatisfied about is the Razorback transport quandry, mainly because I have two in the works that I think will look cool.

 

I suppose that (depending on the points costs) a couple of empty Razorbacks with Twin Assault Cannons are still probably okay to support advancing infantry, or go into strategic reserves to arrive on a board edge in later turns. Time will tell.

[sandrorect]

1 hour ago, Kallas said:

It would have helped if they didn't expand the number of datasheets present (eg, Land Speeders being split instead of consolidated); and things like Primaris Captains and Captains being separate, instead of just being one sheet. There are so many datasheets that could be consolidated easily.

 

The reason beacause is 2 diferent capitans or chapalin is because there is 2 different models with diferent wargear options.

 

And remenber the old model is the model with most options now, so GW can´t consolidate in the one datasheet with more options. 

 

For landspeeders (or predators, or landraider crusader and reddemer)... GW wants that they will be different units.

[Khornestar]

Wowsers. After having some time to digest, this is a pretty sweet army list. Certainly some head scratchers and things I’d rather they didn’t change, but so be it, the good outweighs the bad for me by a wide margin.

 

OH THOSE POOR VANGUARD VETS! Done so dirty.  Glad I never got around to building any, though I suppose I’d still consider it if there isn’t going to be a tacticus remake.

 

I really hope the contemptors stick around and don’t end up as legends. 
 

Loving gravis. Loving gladiators, at least the lancer and reaper. Loving a lot of things. I hope the supplement-having chapters are able to have characters join the appropriate units.

[Bouargh]

Some iteresting stuff I saw without going into too much details:

• Intercessor sergeant can get 2 astartes chainswords - does it makes him 10 attacks or did I miss something in the HtH rules?
• Same with some charaters that can get 2 thunder hammers. It is eventually Ouchh...
• Devastators can get heavy flammers - up to 4 - yet I will wait before thinking into converting an unit... (see bellow my Index vs. Codex syndrom)
• ATV added to outriders. but ATV alone is 1 model only per unit. makes the Attack bike mor interesting.

My concern is that all named characters are now Epic Heroes. So it is a lot of buddies that compete for the only slot we have in the army organization chart... Some will become probably  anecdoticals while in mid and large sized games the Character Delivery Unit system favoured by the leader rules will favour a standardized roller compressor unit.... 

 

And as far as Legends and the units rumoured to be moved to this section is concerned, the fact that the ones listed by rumour mongers are still here does not necesarily means that the rumours are all wrong: last time GW gave us such an index system at a new Ed launch (and these indexes  were anythiing but free), index entries were strongly revised and revamped when the codex was released a few weeks after - and Legends appeared at this moment (Am I right, it was so long ago?). Next SM codex may be the moment when these models suposed to be marked by fate will be sent in the back of the classroom.... Or rumours were false and when I will get it for certain I will be very happy.

 

Yet based on what we saw and other stuffs all of you guies reported and commented already, as I have been affected  last time an index was released by a kind of conversion/refurbishing fever that has prooved to be a little bit over optimistic, I will remain cautious. I have been at least morally impacted last time and I developped a kind of "Index while waiting for a Codex" paranoia syndrom: so I will be more cautious this time and will not intent buying bitz too soon to convert Marines with flamers pistols, HFlammers Devastators or Red Butcher like Intercessor sergeants.... But the latter if I didn´t missed a key rule is damned tempting.

 

Edited: somes changes included looks quite logical if we consider that the detachment can be used by any chapter... It balances the overall without requiring dropping whole units - for example the 2 special weapons on tactical marines helps fielding grey hunters mini in this detachment playing them as marines-painted-like-SW-but-without-SW-keyword...

Edited June 9, 2023 by Bouargh
Last minute comment

[Arkhanist]

4 minutes ago, Bouargh said:

My concern is that all named characters are now Epic Heroes. So it is a lot of buddies that compete for the only slot we have in the army organization chart...

 

You can  only take one of a specific Epic Hero, but no restriction on taking multiple different ones. E.g. you can't take 2 Calgars, but Calgar and Guilliman is fine.

[Kallas]

11 minutes ago, sandrorect said:

The reason beacause is 2 diferent capitans or chapalin is because there is 2 different models with diferent wargear options.

And remenber the old model is the model with most options now, so GW can´t consolidate in the one datasheet with more options

Yes, I'm well aware of the differences in wargear. That is a crap argument - this isn't a "can't" situation, this is GW won't do it because it forces the divide more. Allowing people to model their Primaris characters with Thunder Hammers? Oh no, what a terrible idea, right?! Primaris have upgrade kits with Thunder Hammers, so it's not a matter of availability - this is literally just because GW wants to press the Primaris/Firstborn issue after they've had 6 years to wear down the community - like how we've got Orange Knight persistently lobbying for the removal of Firstborn units, GW wants that but they don't want the backlash.

 

So they won't consolidate the units, even though it's super easy for them to do, and would have made the Index less bloated.

 

11 minutes ago, sandrorect said:

For landspeeders (or predators, or landraider crusader and reddemer)... GW wants that they will be different units.

Sure, they want that, even though it changes how those units have worked (eg, Land Speeders have been a squadron for how long? 20 years? More, likely) and adds bloat which people complained about, and still have issues with - and, again, people like Orange Knight want to remove Firstborn stuff to cut down on bloat, and the only reason the bloat exists is because GW are stuffing the line with needless units: not even going into my opinions on Primaris, but by splitting Land Speeders out into three separate units, they're including 6 pages in the Index, when they could have easily made it into a single unit of 1-3 Land Speeders (like, y'know, the past 20+ years!) with 2 pages. And that's a single example.

 

If the Index is not new player friendly, there is only one place to aim the blame, and that is at GW's design team.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Kallas
Reworded a sentence for clarity

[Nephaston]

4 minutes ago, Bouargh said:

Intercessor sergeant can get 2 astartes chainswords - does it makes him 10 attacks or did I miss something in the HtH rules?

A model can only pick one melee weapon to make attacks, unless any additional weapons have [Extra Attacks].

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, Brother Quinn said:

I'm looking at what to add to bladeguard and at first I thought the Chaplain would be good for the +1 wound.  Then I realized it would be better to add in a Lieutenant for the lethal hits because higher chance to get auto wounds > +1 wound I think.  Combine that with the Captain and his ability and it's less and less likely I use the Chaplain.  I was wondering, looking at the interaction between attaching Captain, Lt., and Ancients.  Can I only attach two at most or can I possibly do all 3 to a bladeguard unit?

 

Judiciar and Primaris Company Champion turn a BGV squad into something terrifying. The Champion grants HI for 0 CPs, even if you have already used it and the Judiciar gives you first strike. This means the squad will hit before Chargers.

 

Or is there a limit on how many Characters you can attach to a unit?