Black Templars Index

[Sir Clausel]

I really dont like we have to pay a premium for the multimelta on our tanks. Since we have to take otherwise its just more expensive but not better. But sometimes you just dont want it or need to save some points. 

If we just had the option to not take it for the same cost as the normal ones it would be just fine

Edited June 17, 2023 by Sir Clausel

[Kilamandaros]

6 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Multi meltas are trash? Maybe if you're a faction where they're the only real source of anti tank, like sisters of battle.

 

But they're a great supplemental weapon to the dedicated things like the laser destroyer. In fact, against lander Raiders and other t12 vehicles, the MM averages more damage than the lascannon...without being in melta range, and barely falls behind against t10-11. Against their oath target they surpass lascannons into t10-11, still without counting the melta bonus.

 

Idk, i feel selfish saying i want a multimelta and a 6fnp over every other marine version for free. Maybe I'm out of touch with modern marine players.

 

Are you looking at the same weapon profile? I don't think you are. Lascannons have 48" range, wound the majority of vehicles on 3s and deals more damage unless you're basically point blank. The MM has a terrible 18" range and wounds vehicles on 5s. It's not even close, MM have been nerfed to trash in this edition.

 

Being forced to pay extra points for a trash weapon when upgrades are free for literally every other model in the game is terrible and is another example of poorly thought out rules in a new edition that otherwise was showing great potential. GW really knows how to kill everyone's hype. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

I.... don't actually mind the weird 11 model max for sword brethren. I have a lot of sb's and a lot of castellans.

 

Still its a little odd to say the least

 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

3 hours ago, Kilamandaros said:

 

Are you looking at the same weapon profile? I don't think you are. Lascannons have 48" range, wound the majority of vehicles on 3s and deals more damage unless you're basically point blank. The MM has a terrible 18" range and wounds vehicles on 5s. It's not even close, MM have been nerfed to trash in this edition.

 

Being forced to pay extra points for a trash weapon when upgrades are free for literally every other model in the game is terrible and is another example of poorly thought out rules in a new edition that otherwise was showing great potential. GW really knows how to kill everyone's hype. 

 

If the game was played on 6x4s, there wasn't tons of stuff that blocked los, and the weapons were mounted on infantry then the range would matter. Multi meltas dominated the game for all of 9th, so we know that having a shorter range than a lascannon isn't a big deal. 

 

Sure, the lascannon wounds most big things on 3s. But just leaving it there and making claims is childish:

 

Lascannon against t12 3+

• 0.66 hits
• 0.33 wounds
• 0.27 unsaved wounds
• 1.23 damage (using the average roll of 3.5+1)

Lascannon against t11-7 3+:

• 0.66 hits
• 0.43 wounds
• 0.36 unsaved wounds
• 1.63 damage (using the average roll of 3.5+1)

Multi melta against t10+ 3+ (out of melta range)

• 1.32 hits
• 0.43 wounds
• 0.43 unsaved wounds
• 1.52 damage (using the average roll of 3.5)

Multi melta against t9 3+ (out of melta range)

• 1.32 hits 
• 0.66 wounds
• 0.66 unsaved wounds
• 2.31 damage (using the average roll of 3.5)

Multi melta against t8-5 3+ (out of melta range)

• 1.32 hits
• 0.87 wounds
• 0.87 unsaved wounds 
• 3.05 damage (using the average roll of 3.5)

 

Look at that. The multi melta is basically the same or better against every toughness band and a 3+ save, without ever applying the melta bonus. If the multi melta is trash, then what does that make every other weapon in its class? Do you want a main vehicle weapon up there on the pintle mount like a macro plasma, las Talon, or laser destroyer? 

 

And upgrades aren't quite "free". Were playing Power, so it's assuming maximum upgrade potential on the unit; you're always paying for the special weapons. Adding an extra additional special weapon to that upgrade potential changes it; it's why adding the multi melta for templars increased the Power rating in 9th. 

 

So to bring it back around. We know that multi meltas have historically excelled on the smaller, terrain dense boards. We know the multi melta in its current state is a better weapon than a lascannon. You don't think it's entitled to say "give me a bonus multi melta on a bunch of tank destroyers, and also a 6+FNP, for free"?

 

@Lord_Ikka 

 

Lascannon on oath against t10-11 3+:

• 0.88 hits
• 0.77 wounds
• 0.64 unsaved wounds 
• 2.89 damage (using the average roll of 3.5+1)

 

Multi melta on oath against t10+ 3+ (out of melta range):

• 1.76 hits
• 0.97 wounds 
• 0.97 unsaved wounds 
• 3.39 damage (using the average roll of 3.5)

 

Having more shots and better AP basically overcomes the strength and damage deficiency.

Edited June 17, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Medjugorje]

You always just calculate on 3+ save. But all "good" things will have an invul so the big bonus of AP will not be that strong. 

But you are correct in that way... I do not have excpect this ... and with melta and wound rerolls it will be much better. 

So against vehicles its a good weapon - far better then i have expected.

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

The invul completely depends on the faction, so ya, i calculated against the baseline "normal vehicle" defensive stats.

 

Against a t10-11 3+/5++ a las cannon does 1.29 damage while a multimelta (with no melta) does 1.01 damage. On oaths it changes to 2.3 and 2.23 respectively. That range band  is the only one where the lascannon is superior, and it's not by any really impressive margin. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

The 18" range is absolutely a problem, even on the smaller boards.  There are plenty of scenarios where you're preferred target is down-range of you at a hypotenuse kind of angle meaning you won't get the shot for lack or range ; plenty of scenarios where you could move up and get the shot, but then your model is hopelessly exposed to return fire ; plenty of scenarios where you need to move your model back or laterally because LOS blocking terrain requires a strange angle, at which point the movement renders you out of range. 

 

18" is absolutely a big deal for multi-meltas (and not in a good way).

[9x19 Parabellum]

So I got my first game in against 1k Sons last night.

 

My force was:

 

5 Intercessors (95)

5 Incursors (90)

5 Infiltrators (90)

20 PCS (320)

 

BT Impulsor (115)

BT Repulsor Executioner (245)

Redemptor Dread (225)

 

5 Bladeguard Vets (200)

5 Hellblasters (125)

5 Lascannon Devastators (120)

 

Emperor's Champ (85) - running solo

Helbrechet (105) - assigned to PCS

Judiciar (90 w/ perdition's edge) - assigned to BGV

Pr Techmarine (75 /w witchseeker bolts) - running solo

 

Total: 1980

 

The Hellblasters deployed in the Incursor and just went around gun-boating.  Emp's champ went inside to dissuade any weak melee guys from trying to tie it up and otherwise just waiting for the right moment to attack.  The BGV+Judiciar went into the Executioner.  Helbrecht + PCS started in reserve and I rapid ingressed them on my opponent's turn 2 (he was first player).

 

My opponent had 6 HQ's (6!)

Ahriman on foot attached to 10 man rubrics with flamers

Sorc on Disc running solo

Terminator Sorc attached to 10 SOT squad

Exalted Sorc attached to 5 man rubric squad

Infernal Master attached to 5 man rubric squad

Tzaangor Shaman attached to 3 Tzaangor Enlightened

 

5 man SOT squad

1 Mutalith Vortex

1 Helbrute with MM

 

We played the Servo Skulls mission.

He got an early lead on points and at the end of Turn 2, the score was 28 to 13, 1k Sons.  We had to end after 2 turns (and nearly 3.5 hours of gameplay), but I was positioned to table him at this point as all of his big squads were gone or cut down substantially.  We more -or-less agreed that after 5 turns I would have beat him as I was getting the servoskulls downfield quick now that I had cleared a flank of the board.

Edited June 17, 2023 by 9x19 Parabellum

[Medjugorje]

too much characters are a trap imo.

I think we are fine with 2 to a max of 4.

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, 9x19 Parabellum said:

The 18" range is absolutely a problem, even on the smaller boards.  There are plenty of scenarios where you're preferred target is down-range of you at a hypotenuse kind of angle meaning you won't get the shot for lack or range ; plenty of scenarios where you could move up and get the shot, but then your model is hopelessly exposed to return fire ; plenty of scenarios where you need to move your model back or laterally because LOS blocking terrain requires a strange angle, at which point the movement renders you out of range. 

 

18" is absolutely a big deal for multi-meltas (and not in a good way).

 

If it was infantry carried I'd definitely agree. But it's not; they're upgrades to tanks that move 10"-12", tanks that already have other weapons that want you to get within 24"/18"/12, and tanks that have chunky dimensions that just need to draw los from any part of it.

 

And idk, you had to move into position to shoot it before and risked return fire then; now you're way tougher, have a layered save, and cover kicks in super often. 

 

If the weapon relied on proccing melta to reach the numbers then ya, needing to get into 9" is a lot to ask. But it's 6" less than before, in an edition where tanks are way more durable than ever.

[Emperor Ming]

2 hours ago, 9x19 Parabellum said:

So I got my first game in against 1k Sons last night.

Impressive!, people are saying TS are really strong in 10th as well, glad you did well

[9x19 Parabellum]

58 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

Impressive!, people are saying TS are really strong in 10th as well, glad you did well

They definitely felt very strong.  My (speculated) win resulted from his 3 failed charges on turn 2:   (1 was average length, 1 was a long bomb, and 1 should have assured).  Then at beginning  of turn 3, after I blasted his big unit of terminators, he failed a battleshock test, his OC went to 0, and I would have been thoroughly in the game controlling 2 objectives that he otherwise would have with his SOT.  But I guess that's all part of 40k.

[Tokugawa]

Abhor is narrow but just too good against GK and TSons. If Abhor picked and can't bring favored matchup against GK and TS, then this vow needn't to exist.

[9x19 Parabellum]

28 minutes ago, Tokugawa said:

Abhor is narrow but just too good against GK and TSons. If Abhor picked and can't bring favored matchup against GK and TS, then this vow needn't to exist.

 

Yep. Against anything else with psykers, I think the Primaris Techmarine with Witchseeker Bolts on the Forge Bolter is all you need.  He did work in all phases. He buffed a vehicle. He repaired a vehicle. He kills psyker. He kills in melee.  And he's75 pts. including the enhancement.  If I bring even a single vehicle, he's an autoinclude for me. 

[Gederas]

So something fun I found: My painted Templars have actually gone down almost 300 points since I last played them in 9e

  

On 6/16/2023 at 10:21 AM, Marshal Mattias said:

It's sad that the days of oversized (Primaris) Crusader Squads are ending... 

I don't expect we'll see a lot of 20-man units on the table; it has rarely been more than a meme.

Also if you want more than 5 sword brethren, you pay for 11

Only if you're not a little coward about it :P

 

My FLGS is having a 24-hour event for the release of 10e, and I'll be bringing my painted Templars.... Which involves 3 squads of 20 PCS. I'll let you all know how that goes

[9x19 Parabellum]

Yeah I don't think 20 man PCS is still a thing.

Infantry across the board are down in points; only dreads and vehicles go up.

I can field a 96 man army  +1 leader with 2000 points now :-D

 

Also...anyone notice this from the rules commentary?

 

Does that mean for example, Grimaldus could still use this Temple Relics ability on his unit in the Command phase even though he's not on the table??

Edited June 17, 2023 by 9x19 Parabellum

[SkimaskMohawk]

Just wrapped up a game against my buddy's tau.

 

We rolled up dawn of war, with vital ground, rain, and both did fixed secondaries since...you know no cards. I took assassinate and bring it down, he took bring it down and hold his dz objective.

 

My list:

Spoiler

Righteous Crusaders 

 

-Terminator captain with chainfist and shield; tannhausers 

 

-5x intercessors with grenade launcher, powerfist

-5x intercessors with grenade launcher, powerfist

-5x intercessors with grenade launcher, powerfist

 

-5x scout snipers 

-5x scout snipers

 

-5x thss terminators 

 

-redemptor with plasma, storm bolter, Icarus, onslaught

-redemptor with plasma, storm bolter, Icarus, onslaught

 

-black templar repulsor executioner with laser destroyer, icarus, multi melta

-black templar repulsor executioner with laser destroyer, icarus, multi melta

 

-land Raider redeemer with multi melta and storm bolter

 

His list (with some guessing, assume any optional upgrades/drones were taken):

 

Spoiler

-Shadowsun

 

-Enforcer suit with double plasma, missile pods

 

-Ethereal

 

-fireblade 

 

-darkstrider

 

-5x crisis with double plasma, missile pods

 

-4x kroot hounds

 

-3x stealth suits with one fusion 

 

-10x breachers

-10x breachers

-10x breachers

 

-10x kroot

-10x kroot

 

-riptide with ion canon and plasma

 

-riptide with gatling and plasma 

 

-hammerhead

 

-longstrike

 

My plan for the list was to use skew with high toughness and use cover, uphold, and maybe armour of contempt to push in. We both tried to hide a lot of our stuff, but he still had a hammer head and some of the crisis that was in los; i had the dreads, land Raider and an executioner. I got first.

 

Turn 1 I oathed the hammer head and killed it, and stripped most of the drones from the crises team (apparently this is wrong, they just add wounds to the individual models, not are ablative wounds). His turn i overwatched the kroot with the redeemers, but he got the devastating wounds from long strike into the 6 for damage on the Raider, and then finished it off with the ion cannon riptide. The crisis unit killed a Terminator, the gatling riptide killed 4 scout snipers (uphold came in clutch).

 

Turn 2  I passed all my battle shock, oathed longstrike and burned him down with just the one redemptors plasma and onslaught. It's storm bolters and rate of fire weapons from an executioner killed the kroot; the destroyer and the other dread reduced the ion riptide to 4 wounds. I stripped a couple of wounds off the enforcer with snipers. The other executioner dropped the gatling riptide to 9 wounds and killed 6 firewarriors from the ethereal squad. I failed a charge into his remaining kroot with the temrinators. His turn he failed battleshock on that reduced fire warrior squad and basically dumped as much as he could into the terminators and dreadnoughts; some good FNP and free AoC left me with the seargent and the captain and unbracketed dreads. His gatling riptide and breachers he brought in from reserve over on that side of the board completely bounced off the executioner.

 

My turn 3 I passed my battleshock and  oathed the crisis team. One dread killed the 4 wound riptide, the executioner killed the 9 wound gatling riptide (with the multimelta lol), and the other pair killed two crisis suits and a breachers unit. Snipers took another two wounds off the enforcer, and then the remaining terminators managed to charge Shadowsun, and an intercessor seargent charged the stealth suits and both tau unit died; terminators consolidated into the suits (who bounced with their attacks).

 

The game basically got called there; I was controlling 3/4 objectives due to sticky tagging from the intercessors, and had killed almost all his output while having a ton left on my end. Secondaries were also really in my favour, as his mountain of characters and vehicles were starting to add up, and were in some vulnerable spots  for the stuff that was left alive.

 

I think heavy vehicle skew is really solid. We can ride out a lot of the serious anti tank with cover, armour of contempt, and Uphold and the rest tends to bounce. Oath really let's you focus targets down with even just the dreads (high rolls depending), which can flex into horde with the plasma cannons. I do think it's important to bring anti horde, because i looked over next to me and saw the work it was taking to remove buffed necron warrior squads (with my other buddy also having a big ol' blob of death korps with OC 3 and preventative battleshock tech).

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by SkimaskMohawk

[Sea Creature]

Uphold is so good.

[redmapa]

I think the only vow that is kind of meh is Suffer Not..., you can just add a Castellan to the unit you want to buff and get Lethal hits that way and you can use another vow to further buff that unit.

[Marshal Mattias]

9 hours ago, Gederas said:

Only if you're not a little coward about it :P

I guess this was meant to be funny, but the point still stands; 20-man crusader squads have always been unwieldy and an over-investment in any edition. If you're putting 60 bodies on the table, there were better ways to divide them into squads.

 

I'm all for running thematic lists (triple landraider/vindicators was a favourite list of mine) but it's not gonna be efficient and as such we won't see a lot of 20 man squads, bar those friendly thematic matches. 

[Kilamandaros]

18 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

If the game was played on 6x4s, there wasn't tons of stuff that blocked los, and the weapons were mounted on infantry then the range would matter. Multi meltas dominated the game for all of 9th, so we know that having a shorter range than a lascannon isn't a big deal. 

 

Sure, the lascannon wounds most big things on 3s. But just leaving it there and making claims is childish:

 

Lascannon against t12 3+

• 0.66 hits
• 0.33 wounds
• 0.27 unsaved wounds
• 1.23 damage (using the average roll of 3.5+1)

Lascannon against t11-7 3+:

• 0.66 hits
• 0.43 wounds
• 0.36 unsaved wounds
• 1.63 damage (using the average roll of 3.5+1)

Multi melta against t10+ 3+ (out of melta range)

• 1.32 hits
• 0.43 wounds
• 0.43 unsaved wounds
• 1.52 damage (using the average roll of 3.5)

Multi melta against t9 3+ (out of melta range)

• 1.32 hits 
• 0.66 wounds
• 0.66 unsaved wounds
• 2.31 damage (using the average roll of 3.5)

Multi melta against t8-5 3+ (out of melta range)

• 1.32 hits
• 0.87 wounds
• 0.87 unsaved wounds 
• 3.05 damage (using the average roll of 3.5)

 

Look at that. The multi melta is basically the same or better against every toughness band and a 3+ save, without ever applying the melta bonus. If the multi melta is trash, then what does that make every other weapon in its class? Do you want a main vehicle weapon up there on the pintle mount like a macro plasma, las Talon, or laser destroyer? 

 

And upgrades aren't quite "free". Were playing Power, so it's assuming maximum upgrade potential on the unit; you're always paying for the special weapons. Adding an extra additional special weapon to that upgrade potential changes it; it's why adding the multi melta for templars increased the Power rating in 9th. 

 

So to bring it back around. We know that multi meltas have historically excelled on the smaller, terrain dense boards. We know the multi melta in its current state is a better weapon than a lascannon. You don't think it's entitled to say "give me a bonus multi melta on a bunch of tank destroyers, and also a 6+FNP, for free"?

 

@Lord_Ikka 

 

Lascannon on oath against t10-11 3+:

• 0.88 hits
• 0.77 wounds
• 0.64 unsaved wounds 
• 2.89 damage (using the average roll of 3.5+1)

 

Multi melta on oath against t10+ 3+ (out of melta range):

• 1.76 hits
• 0.97 wounds 
• 0.97 unsaved wounds 
• 3.39 damage (using the average roll of 3.5)

 

Having more shots and better AP basically overcomes the strength and damage deficiency.

 

A great example of why math-hammer is not always applicable to actual gameplay. Warhammer 40K is not played in a vacuum. You are missing a key scenario from your list of outcomes there:

 

Multi-melta vs any toughness:

• 0 hits
• 0 wounds
• 0 unsaved wounds
• 0 damage

Can you guess what scenario this is? Correct! Your MM is out of range of its desired target. The lascannon is infinitely better in this scenario. Saying 18" vs 48" range doesn't matter is just ludicrous and renders your whole argument laughable. Unless you're playing combat patrol it's a massive restriction on the weapon.

 

And comparing it to 9th just shows how badly it was nerfed. In 9th it was a premier anti tank weapon for a number of reasons:

• They were often FREE upgrades, not 20-25 points
• 24" range is a lot better than 18"
• Wounding on 3s/4s is a lot better than 5s

Let's take an actual example of gameplay - not mathhammer in a vacuum - using a BT list that was popular in 9th; Impulsor spam with (FREE) Multimelta upgrades - designed to rush forward and secure the midboard and use the MMs to deal with tough targets. For deployment we'll use the Only War example from the 10th downloadable rulebook (see attached). On a 60" x 44" board for Incursion/Strikeforce, with 24" between deployment zones.

 

 

You deploy your MM Impulsors on the edge of your deployment ready to race forward. Your opponent (who we assume has some understanding of the game) sees this array of MM-armed tanks and keeps their obvious target (usually some kind of long ranged anti tank of their own) in their deployment well out of range to shoot without fear of the MMs, contesting the midboard instead with infantry and softer targets. You move the Impulsors forward their 12" move to the middle and guess what - you're not even close to in range. The guns you've paid 20 points each for to be one of your main source of anti-tank cannot reach their ideal target.

 

In this battle it's not even guaranteed you would get in range of the key anti-tank target in turn 2! Let's assume best case scenario and the Impulsors have survived the opponent's return fire over 1-2 turns, dropped off their cargo and you then move 12" to the edge of their deployment zone - only those Impulsors who have moved up directly in front of their target will be within the 18" range to finally begin using the MM for what it's meant for.

 

Let's instead then say you replace all of those MMs with Lascannons, whether it's devastator squads, dreadnoughts, predators etc. etc. on the same board you can easily get these lascannons in range of whatever target you have, most likely the target you're using OoM on; probably a very obvious target with its own long range capability like a Stormsurge, Knight or even something smaller like a Redemptor, Riptide - something you want to get rid of before it impacts your units going forward to contest objectives.

 

Lascannons work so much better with OoM for this reason, you can reach out and focus fire a target, with the 48" range making it virtually impossible for your opponent to keep their key target out of range. Yes cover plays a part and they may be able to mitigate some of what can be shot at using cover in their deployment zone, but there's a big difference forcing them into cover and limiting their own target selection than being able to stay out in the open safe in the knowledge they're out of range. Unless the opponent wants to lose the game with all their key units sat in hiding, they will need to engage and then can be focus-fired.

 

To note, I'm not saying MMs are useless, and in the scenario above they would have other targets to shoot at, but are they worth 20-25 points for the upgrade? Absolutely not. 18" range is horrendous and saying it doesn't matter is just laughable. You can call me childish and throw mathhammer at me all you like, in the practical application of a game, we absolutely should not be forced to pay for them.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Kilamandaros

[SkimaskMohawk]

Right ya, you skipped right over the part where I mentioned LoS blockers in conjunction with smaller maps; the Ls being an infamous staple of the game.

 

If this was played on planet bowling ball then ya, full on lascannons would be able to apply their output from the very start. But my experiences with 9th were full of wtc terrain forcing units to move up the board to get angles, which would bring both sides up and bridge the range gap. My game yesterday certainly wasn't on a WTC layout, but even still i could basically only see 1 unit on turn 1.

 

Lots of things are pretty funny in that post past that like "often free" and "a popular bt list of 9th". Like....only since Arks lol; they werent free for the majority of the supplement and people didn't take impulsor spam before that. What else? Oh yea, copy pasting a list that only worked in arks and playing it when it costs points again; deploying everything on the line in the open before your opponent deploys the targets for them; not premeasuring the distance and just moving straight forward in the open. Because let's be real; you take that exact same spiel and apply it to the 9th statline and you'd still be about to lose the game, 6" extra or no.

 

Obviously we're not going to agree on this. I'd just say don't spam the ones that cost 25 points if its crowding too many units out of your list. And like I initially said, don't take it as a main anti tank, take it as a supplement to the real stuff. 

[Sea Creature]

20 man PCS has been very effective in ninth edition. It could be even more potent in tenth edition. Your opponent can’t ignore it if nothing else and it has access to even more buffs now… 4++ versus psychic attacks, 5+++ FNP, advance and charge, reroll hits, scout move, powerfists hit on 3+, etc. Not all of these can applied simultaneously, but you can pick most of the ones you need depending on what your up against.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Sea Creature

[Marshal Mattias]

On 6/18/2023 at 4:44 PM, Sea Creature said:

20 man PCS has been very effective in ninth edition. It could be even more potent in tenth edition. Your opponent can’t ignore it if nothing else and it has access to even more buffs now… 4++ versus psychic attacks, 5+++ FNP, advance and charge, reroll hits, scout move, powerfists hit on 3+, etc. Not all of these can applied simultaneously, but you can pick most of the ones you need depending on what your up against.

 

I remember you broaching this topic last year I think? We never got any updates on how it was going.

https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/375054-20-man-primaris-crusader-squads/

 

I've checked out a number of tournament placing lists over the course of 9th. I've never noticed a pattern of 20-man Primaris Crusaders. Obviously any unit will have strengths and weaknesses, but their relative point costs determined their efficiency in the game overall. Any unit - with the right character support or stratagem - could be made to function. Was it always worth the investment to output ratio? I'd argue that the answer to that was no - 15/16 bodies would normally suffice for any purpose. Going to a full 20 was mostly overkill for fun.

[Sea Creature]

They are a popular unit amongst competitive BT players and mine has always served me well. In ninth edition there was lots of good stratagems for them such as genewrought might.