Legends of the Horus Heresy

[Colman]

I’d guess a combined legends and armour points document will  be forthcoming once they issue the rest of them.

[Interrogator Stobz]

51 minutes ago, BrainFireBob said:

Walk back to "not recommended for tournaments."

Noticed that too.

Let's wait for the commentary...

[Colman]

I’m not a tournament player and had formed the impression that IA units weren’t generally allowed in tournaments anyway. Was that wrong? 

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

11 minutes ago, Colman said:

I’m not a tournament player and had formed the impression that IA units weren’t generally allowed in tournaments anyway. Was that wrong? 

That hasn't been the case since 7th basically. 

 

At least not in any tourny I've been to. 

 

Typically fw models were quite expensive points wise. 

[Interrogator Stobz]

Our tournaments always had everything except OOP Legend units.

There were Falchions and other super heavies etc. regularly to combat Knights and Daemon primarchs.

Hell I took my THawk one year.

None of it was OP and none of those lists ever got to the top tables.

Now, the game is lessened with their removal.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Stitchs comment is obviously ridiculous. The original resin versions were made for 40k in the Badab war imperial armours, and 30k was not a separate game until 8th edition. And even then when it was, the rules for these models were fully supported the entire time.

 

How does being remade in plastic make them "made for a different game?"

 

It'd be like old world not supporting blood knights because they got redone in plastic for AoS. Or direwolves. Or whatever else equally silly. 

[Bazza]

45 minutes ago, Colman said:

I’d guess a combined legends and armour points document will  be forthcoming once they issue the rest of them.

 

Makes sense for them to have one points document that they are going to update and a second points document that they won't.

[Silas7]

Do people think I could proxy my Corvus Black Star as a StormEagle Gunship?

[Nephaston]

Article mentions non-heresy-era datasheets entering legends, so technically this is wave one of potentially four; Heresy sheets (which include non-heresy units like the decimator), custodes and knight sheets that don't go to legends, non-heresy legends sheets, and points ,though the latter could easily be partitioned into separate docs.

 

So far typical GW nonsense in regards to sorting. Sometimes I wonder if it is contempt or apathy that guides their design or if they really don't understand the game beyond their skewed beer and pretzels approach.

[Dark Legionnare]

24 minutes ago, Silas7 said:

Do people think I could proxy my Corvus Black Star as a StormEagle Gunship?

I've never seen a Blackstar in person. It looks a fair deal smaller than a stormeagle, at least going by its size compared to the standard flying base in Google images. Not TOO bad though. I could be completely wrong.

Why not just run it as itself? Curious
 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[Blurf]

1 hour ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Our tournaments always had everything except OOP Legend units.

There were Falchions and other super heavies etc. regularly to combat Knights and Daemon primarchs.

Hell I took my THawk one year.

None of it was OP and none of those lists ever got to the top tables.

Now, the game is lessened with their removal.

There are some caveats to this.

Eighth edition: Mega Super Chicken+Malevolent Sorcs made current Devastating wounds look like nothing. Reece did a tournament report where his opponent did mortal wounds equal to the total wounds in his whole army in 2 turns.

Eighth Edition: Unkillable Leaf-Blower Iron hands Leviathan's

Late Eight, Early Ninth: Chaplain Dreads.

47 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Stitchs comment is obviously ridiculous. The original resin versions were made for 40k in the Badab war imperial armours, and 30k was not a separate game until 8th edition. And even then when it was, the rules for these models were fully supported the entire time.

 

How does being remade in plastic make them "made for a different game?"

 

It'd be like old world not supporting blood knights because they got redone in plastic for AoS. Or direwolves. Or whatever else equally silly. 

In fairness...that may still happen.

[Squark]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

It'd be like old world not supporting blood knights because they got redone in plastic for AoS. Or direwolves. Or whatever else equally silly. 

They're keeping the old 25 mm scale and using square bases, so... they kind of are. I mean, the old ones are almost certainly fine, much the way the Relic Terminators and Betrayal at Calth Contemptor are. But the new rescaled ones will be... problematic.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Squark

[Evil Eye]

11 minutes ago, Nephaston said:

they really don't understand the game beyond their skewed beer and pretzels approach.

To be honest I don't think this is the problem. "Beer and pretzels" was always the intended way to play 40K- the more "serious" approach is something elements of the community willed into existence and started to dominate online discourse around 5th edition. Remember that for the longest time, extra-Codex rules were quite common, with Imperial Armour offering a great deal of additional content and Chapter Approved (released in 3rd but compatible with 4th and at a stretch with 5th) even had rules for making entire new units, with a "get permission from your opponent before fielding" caveat. The problem is, GW are marketing it as a "serious" wargame with seasonal "patches" with the intent of improving balance, but they aren't doing an exactly great job of it, in part I feel because, well, 40K was never meant as that sort of game and forcing it to be one, with tiers of "legality" in games for units, seasons etc being IMO the antithesis of what the game used to be (and to me, at least, should be).

 

Now as to why this is happening I can think of a few possibilities:

1: The left hand doesn't know what the right is doing. You have people in the design department who are trying to make a flexible, casual "anything goes" game, and other people (possibly in the same department!) who are aiming for a more streamlined and balanced approach, and then the marketing department are billing it as a tightly balanced tourney-ready game (DOHOHOHO) to the annoyance of- or even without the knowledge of- the actual designers.

2: This isn't a case of "beer and pretzels balancing" but rather quite intentional skewing of balance and design priorities in order to shift more product. I mentioned in another (deleted?) post that it's possible GW is worried HH stuff is cannibalizing sales of 40K stuff (specifically Primaris) so they're trying to force people not to use HH in 40K so that, if they play Marines, they have no choice but to buy the shiny new stuff.

3: GW are being sincere with Legends and are trying to offer a halfway house solution so everyone's models are still useable, they're just incompetent at it and also have naively overestimated the ability for a lot of people to interpret balance for themselves beyond the most basic "GW didn't put it in the main Index/Codex so it's not balanced" way.

 

1 is probably a factor, 2 being the most likely majority cause- 3 may be partially true but I think it would be giving GW too much credit to assume it's the main cause, there's been too many decisions that seem directly "malicious" for it to be purely a case of misunderstanding the community.

 

I feel there is definitely some rather scummy marketing shenanigans at work with "balance" being manipulated to sell the right products and thus appease shareholders, however I would not be surprised if the entirety of GW and their design team isn't "in on it" and a lot of them are either just trying (however poorly) to write good rules, or are being pushed in certain directions by the higher-ups with much grumbling. GW is not a hive-mind after all, it's a large collection of people and given their recent hemorrhaging of talent I suspect there's a lot of disagreements within Nottingham HQ on their current direction.

 

That said there is definitely a concerted effort by elements of GW to invalidate existing models and force the sales of new ones, and I don't care for it one bit. The existence of Legends itself wouldn't be such an issue if A: it wasn't so lazily put together (if it was more of a proper supplement for using classic/custom models rather than a dumping ground for retired units it'd be fine) and B: if units weren't being retired from the game altogether. Some models such as some of the Eldar FW jets are straight up gone, and whilst yes they were old and out of production, they were also very expensive models that people invested time, money and effort into, and unceremoniously removing all rules support for them is a majorly dick move. Given this approach I'd be unsurprised, but still very angry, if more models got rendered literally unplayable by termination of rules support such that even if your group is fine with Legends you can't use them unless you homebrew stuff.

 

So yeah, what GW is doing sucks hardcore and I vehemently oppose it, but I don't think it's a "beer and pretzels" approach that is the problem.

[Captain Idaho]

I actually do like the Spartan rules for fire support dare I say it. But yeah wouldn't have killed then to add Assault Ramp I know.

 

4 hours ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

 

But surely it's not just you on the other side of this argument? Are you really the only one with these toys in your club?

 

 

Oh this a gaming group. 6-8 lads who play casually. They don't have any such toys and are very much "standard" so there's as few "feels badsies" (technical quote ) as possible. 

 

I reckon I could convince Luke to play sometimes using them as he has a 3D printer... but we'll see.

 

The local club is worse though. Only play leagues and tournaments.

[Nephaston]

6 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

So yeah, what GW is doing sucks hardcore and I vehemently oppose it, but I don't think it's a "beer and pretzels" approach that is the problem.

Oh yeah, I agree, I was more implying that GWs beer and pretzels approach is skewed and not in line with the consumers beer and pretzels approach, never mind competetive or semi-competetive.

[Helycon]

I think it's pretty clear the effort was either extremely low to begin with, or major rush-job by the intern. 

 

As already stated, the Thunderhawk is missing in the Adeptus Astartes datasheet PDF. 

The Fire Raptor can be equipped with Quad heavy bolters, which aren't on the datasheet. A Rapier Carrier has them on the sheet, and that has the Heavy keyword, which is odd, as that seems to apply to the way the Rapier Carrier works. 

 

The Plasma Cannon isn't in the Adpetus Astartes Legends Armory, because why would it be, when everything else generic is? Also, it has the arrow option for selecting weapon profiles, when no such weapon is on the sheet. 

 

Mentioning points at the bottom of the last page when they aren't actually included also feels strange.

 

The way they're handling these models seems like a jumbled mess, which is a shame, because I absolutely love what they did with the rules and detachments in general, although the balance is something to be worked on for sure. Invalidating a lot of the models will lead to feel bads, especially when they were supported and promoted not too long ago. Also, it really doesn't feel like such a huge deal to keep balancing these datasheets. It's not that many. The total amount of them is less then most indexes. 

 

I do hope GW changes their mind and will include these after the feedback from a, what feels to me, sizeable part of the community. 

 

 

[Rain]

19 minutes ago, Helycon said:

I think it's pretty clear the effort was either extremely low to begin with, or major rush-job by the intern. 

 

As already stated, the Thunderhawk is missing in the Adeptus Astartes datasheet PDF. 

The Fire Raptor can be equipped with Quad heavy bolters, which aren't on the datasheet. A Rapier Carrier has them on the sheet, and that has the Heavy keyword, which is odd, as that seems to apply to the way the Rapier Carrier works. 

 

The Plasma Cannon isn't in the Adpetus Astartes Legends Armory, because why would it be, when everything else generic is? Also, it has the arrow option for selecting weapon profiles, when no such weapon is on the sheet. 

 

Mentioning points at the bottom of the last page when they aren't actually included also feels strange.

 

The way they're handling these models seems like a jumbled mess, which is a shame, because I absolutely love what they did with the rules and detachments in general, although the balance is something to be worked on for sure. Invalidating a lot of the models will lead to feel bads, especially when they were supported and promoted not too long ago. Also, it really doesn't feel like such a huge deal to keep balancing these datasheets. It's not that many. The total amount of them is less then most indexes. 

 

I do hope GW changes their mind and will include these after the feedback from a, what feels to me, sizeable part of the community. 

 

 

 

10 skulls says it was some cheap third party they hired in Bangladesh that has never heard of Warhammer, or seen a wargaming model before. This firm was itself given some jumbled Excel doc to work from which was thrown together by a stoned work-from-homer to transcribe and format into PDF's for mass consumption. Cynicism for the cynicism about modern corporate work product throne!

Edited June 21, 2023 by Rain

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The Thunderhawk will almost certainly be with the Astreus in the Imperial Armour 40k compendium.

[Interrogator Stobz]

1 hour ago, Blurf said:

There are some caveats to this.

Eighth edition: Mega Super Chicken+Malevolent Sorcs made current Devastating wounds look like nothing. Reece did a tournament report where his opponent did mortal wounds equal to the total wounds in his whole army in 2 turns.

Eighth Edition: Unkillable Leaf-Blower Iron hands Leviathan's

Late Eight, Early Ninth: Chaplain Dreads.

In fairness...that may still happen.

The odd unit and combo true. But no more or less than the 'normal' units and lists.

And it's more often than not the non Legend rules which ruin it.

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Interrogator Stobz

[Blurf]

25 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

The odd unit and combo true. But no more or less than the 'normal' units and lists.

And it's more often than not the non Legend rules which ruin it.

 

Oh absolutely, it's purely for completeness sake.

[Helycon]

35 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

10 skulls says it was some cheap third party they hired in Bangladesh that has never heard of Warhammer, or seen a wargaming model before. This firm was itself given some jumbled Excel doc to work from which was thrown together by a stoned work-from-homer to transcribe and format into PDF's for mass consumption. Cynicism for the cynicism about modern corporate work product throne!

That seems a little on the harsher end of things  . While I've had my run-ins with outsourcing (and definitely not being a fan), I believe they simply lacked time to put the proper effort in, then rushed to make them Legends to cut down on time. This sadly caused a lot of casualties in people's collection, which also turned out to be some of their more expensive and therefore prized models. I don't own too many Forge World models that will be hit (since Knights and Custodes don't get impacted at all?) and don't play in tournaments, I can still use them in friendly games. I do however feel for the people that do have this challenge now. Most of them are also the folks that dislike the decreased granularity in points, so they get hit twice most of the time, alienating a decent chunk of the player base.

 

31 minutes ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

The Thunderhawk will almost certainly be with the Astreus in the Imperial Armour 40k compendium.

 

I'm positive it will be, but it again shows the lack of time and effort they could put into this, when they clearly didn't need to rush things for these datasheets anyway. Speed very rarely results in the superior product.

 

25 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

The odd unit and combo true. But no more or less than the 'normal' units and lists.

And it's more often than not the non Legend rules which ruin it.

 

Truly competitive players will always gravitate to the meanest of combo's anyway, does that then matter which units they really are? I remember Volkite being a baddy at some point due to the mortal wounds, but Forge World stuff was generally OK and a bit more on the higher point's cost anyway. I just hope they realise it really isn't that big of a task as they stated it is. It's 40 datasheets for the ones currently available that are technically Horus Heresy. The Xenos have a low model count from Forge World and an even lower non-titanic amount. I reckon they would have been more than fine if they tried. 

[Noserenda]

Offshoring seems like a lot more work than just exploiting local creative talent desperate to do the job of their dreams for pennies really.

And yeah, there have always been the odd OP forgeworld unit, just like every codex ever written :D 

[Interrogator Stobz]

57 minutes ago, Helycon said:

That seems a little on the harsher end of things  . While I've had my run-ins with outsourcing (and definitely not being a fan), I believe they simply lacked time to put the proper effort in, then rushed to make them Legends to cut down on time. This sadly caused a lot of casualties in people's collection, which also turned out to be some of their more expensive and therefore prized models. I don't own too many Forge World models that will be hit (since Knights and Custodes don't get impacted at all?) and don't play in tournaments, I can still use them in friendly games. I do however feel for the people that do have this challenge now. Most of them are also the folks that dislike the decreased granularity in points, so they get hit twice most of the time, alienating a decent chunk of the player base.

 

 

I'm positive it will be, but it again shows the lack of time and effort they could put into this, when they clearly didn't need to rush things for these datasheets anyway. Speed very rarely results in the superior product.

 

Truly competitive players will always gravitate to the meanest of combo's anyway, does that then matter which units they really are? I remember Volkite being a baddy at some point due to the mortal wounds, but Forge World stuff was generally OK and a bit more on the higher point's cost anyway. I just hope they realise it really isn't that big of a task as they stated it is. It's 40 datasheets for the ones currently available that are technically Horus Heresy. The Xenos have a low model count from Forge World and an even lower non-titanic amount. I reckon they would have been more than fine if they tried. 

Wait, What?

Did you just say this doesn't impact on you but you still care for how it affects others?

Diabolical !!! 

 

I totally agree that the too hard to balance argument is nonsense. 

GeeDub have already said they don't really bother because we the players do 50,000 games in a week compared with their half a dozen or so over 5 playtesters.

 

Which kind of explains both the problems with 10th caused by lack of time and resources; a total mess of points and an attempt to simplify that problem by culling.

Both can be fixed by us the players.

To keep this on topic, hopefully they walk back their exclusion once the points and commentary comes out for this tranch of datasheets.

[OttoVonAwesome]

4 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Stitchs comment is obviously ridiculous. The original resin versions were made for 40k in the Badab war imperial armours, and 30k was not a separate game until 8th edition. And even then when it was, the rules for these models were fully supported the entire time.

 

How does being remade in plastic make them "made for a different game?"

 

It'd be like old world not supporting blood knights because they got redone in plastic for AoS. Or direwolves. Or whatever else equally silly. 

Old world did turn Vampire Counts into a legends army already lol.

 

Anyway seeing this Legends drop they really need to f'ing fix the mistakes like Dreads with two CC's or (Ironclad needs fixing as well while they are at it. Second CC should be extra attacks when they aren't the same weapon) Spartan's missing assualt ramp, missing sponsons on the Mastadon etc before they can call it a done document.

 

It seems pretty phoned in Heavy Lascannon battery is just a two shot regular lascannon most tanks are rocking the same support abilities as thier similar counter parts. Doesn't seem any reason to ban them from play alot of them are actually just worse versions of something else or wierd sidegrades. I'm certainly not telling anyone they can't play me with those models.

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, Squark said:

They're keeping the old 25 mm scale and using square bases, so... they kind of are. I mean, the old ones are almost certainly fine, much the way the Relic Terminators and Betrayal at Calth Contemptor are. But the new rescaled ones will be... problematic.

 

They fit on the square bases still and are very similar to the old metal sizes. And even if they weren't...the unit can still be taken; tomb kings are still in the game even though you haven't been able to buy their models for 8 years. 

 

And scale is bit of odd argument; tomb kings and VCs had massively different scaled skellies, 30k has power armoured Praetors that tower over power armour stiff and even terminators; all stuff that you can still field.