Legends of the Horus Heresy

[Helycon]

Things is, a lot of people simply don't want to play against legends, which makes it challenging to bring them to casual games. Since they won't be balanced, if a unit skews either way, it's highly probable to be a paperweight  A proxy doesn't always work due to points not matching. It's just a minefield, which is why a lot of groups simply preemptively decide to 'ban' them. That's where a lot of the emotions seem to come from as far as I can tell.

[DemonGSides]

7 minutes ago, Helycon said:

Things is, a lot of people simply don't want to play against legends, which makes it challenging to bring them to casual games.

 

This is a community failing, not a GW failing.  Tell these people to get over themselves.

[Helycon]

6 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

This is a community failing, not a GW failing.  Tell these people to get over themselves.

BS. Because GW no longer supports them, the community adopts this doctrine. 

[Arkhanist]

25 minutes ago, Plaguecaster said:

They don't even have plastic kits with all of it being resin so even harder for new players to get unlike the actual plastic kits you can buy from any GW or FLGS they now basically banned.

 

Ding ding ding. Expensive resin models? They get mainline rules. Much cheaper plastic 30k models that actually slightly undercut 40k equivalent unit prices? Why, it's almost like they are happy for you to splurge e.g. £225 on a cerastus knight on top of other units, but don't want to reduce sales of their shiny new primaris tanks. (and who cares about chaos, they've been the red-headed stepchild for years).

 

It's almost like it's just a cynical strategy written by some short-sighted MBA instead of being anything to do with balance or range size or resourcing.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Arkhanist

[Noserenda]

Yeah GW is hardly blameless in this, they have had literal decades to see how "opponents permission" or "not tournament legal" works out in practice, they should know exactly how the community views these things, but its a convenient shield from criticism for decisions they know will be unpopular, because they are obviously bad decisions for the community.

[DemonGSides]

7 minutes ago, Helycon said:

BS. Because GW no longer supports them, the community adopts this doctrine. 

 

3 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

Yeah GW is hardly blameless in this, they have had literal decades to see how "opponents permission" or "not tournament legal" works out in practice, they should know exactly how the community views these things, but its a convenient shield from criticism for decisions they know will be unpopular, because they are obviously bad decisions for the community.

They print datasheets for them, they put it in the rules that Legends are viable for all play besides ranked matched play, and so far, of the communities that ignore this, everyone's already planning to ignore them instead of even attempting to give them a shot.  We have people admitting that they have friend groups of people 6-8 deep who they are too afraid to even broach the subject of using Legends.  People they consider friends!

That's a community failing.

Edited June 22, 2023 by DemonGSides

[Arkhanist]

20 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

This is a community failing, not a GW failing.  Tell these people to get over themselves.

 

You are more than welcome to come to my local area and tell them that, because they ain't listening to me. GW explicitly says they're not fair, balanced or getting updates in Legends, so a bunch of them don't want to play them, and nothing I say is going to shift that view. And no, I'm not going to move house (as if I could even afford to now) or travel 2-3 hour roundtrip for a game just to try and get a different group that might. I'm so, so sick of having this argument over and over again here and not being believed that it's a problem and being gaslit that it's actually my fault.

 

This is a problem of GW's own making, and blaming 'the community' is a cop out.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Arkhanist

[OttoVonAwesome]

21 minutes ago, Stitch5000 said:

Buying models that are tangentially relevant to a game system that you apparently want to play competitively is always going to work out badly. 

I just don't get it. If you want to play at events or tournaments (the sort of things that preclude the use of these rules, not models - you can just use them as proxies if the whole look of the army you are using is that important) surely you are going to be cycling through armies and models to keep up with something vaguely compatative?

If you are really looking to use a deeply thematic and highly narrative army, why do you really care what can and can;t be used in tournaments?

Until now these units crossed over with minor restrictions (pay 1cp) that being said do we even know if most tournements will restrict them given the backlash or if GW will decide to maintain thier stance on legends especially given the fallacies of thier arguement having been pointed out by me and many others across the internet. What we do know is that no one wants to proxy a model they spent thier hard earned money on as another beacuase the billion dollar company that sold it to them is trying to gaslight them into believing it's too much work to keep balanced over the course of a short edition where the last codex produced will only last 3-4 months.

 

These models are bought with money wich is our time and essentially our lifes blood we put up with edition churn is it too much to ask that we are rewarded for our sacrifice in dollars and time spent painting and modeling these pieces that were sold to us in past confidence that we could use them without restrictions based on false logic and dubious intent. After all it is the data we provide through tournaments that is used to "balance" the game and no extra work is done for this pursuit even if they were not arbitrarily restricted.

 

It's not about competitive vs narrative it's about being told the things you spent your money on aren't valid because they aren't valid everywhere because the very people who sold it to you said they couldn't be bothered to keep it relevant. I wonder why people are mad. 

[Karhedron]

13 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

Yeah GW is hardly blameless in this, they have had literal decades to see how "opponents permission" or "not tournament legal" works out in practice, they should know exactly how the community views these things, but its a convenient shield from criticism for decisions they know will be unpopular, because they are obviously bad decisions for the community.

 

And not only that, for a long time, FW units tended to be stronger point-for-point than regular units. While that may no longer be true, people have long memories. In my area, FW is still tarred with "pay to win".

 

There is no point telling an ambiguous community to "get over it". The only way to fix this mess is for GW to take proper ownership of both the models and problems they created. People bought these models in good faith and should not be denied the opportunity to play them in any setting just because GW can't be bothered to put the legwork in and balance the units properly. It is not like they are short of profits to pay a couple of extra developers to actually do the work.

 

Instead they have taken the lazy option and punted these units over to 30K rather than balancing them properly for both systems. I would really like a Sicaran Omega, not for any competitive edge but because I have always had a soft spot for honking great plasma cannons. But I am not going to buy a £100 model and paint it just so it can sit on a shelf.

[Helycon]

17 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

They print datasheets for them, they put it in the rules that Legends are viable for all play besides ranked matched play, and so far, of the communities that ignore this, everyone's already planning to ignore them instead of even attempting to give them a shot.  We have people admitting that they have friend groups of people 6-8 deep who they are too afraid to even broach the subject of using Legends.  People they consider friends!

That's a community failing.

It's not just groups of friends. Not everyone has that luxury. It's a lot more challenging for people that go to their FLGS. 

 

As stated, GW actively says they don't want to bother making rules for them due to the additional strain on their team, even though the amount of sheets is a very small piece of the pie. That shakes people's faith in their rules. So they either suck or are OP. The former means they're no longer played with no chance of them being in the near future due to being out of the balance loop, or being OP and not wanting to be played against and being out of the balance loop. 

[DemonGSides]

17 minutes ago, Arkhanist said:

You are more than welcome to come to my local area and tell them that, because they ain't listening to me. GW explicitly says they're not fair, balanced or getting updates in Legends, so a bunch of them don't want to play them, and nothing I say is going to shift that view. And no, I'm not going to move house (as if I could even afford to now) or travel 2-3 hour roundtrip for a game just to try and get a different group that might. I'm so, so sick of having this argument over and over again here and not being believed that it's a problem and being gaslit that it's actually my fault.

 

This is a problem of GW's own making, and blaming 'the community' is a cop out.

 

No one's telling you to move.  No one's gaslighting you.  It is a community failing; you're being failed by your community.

 

3 minutes ago, Helycon said:

It's not just groups of friends. Not everyone has that luxury. It's a lot more challenging for people that go to their FLGS. 

 

As stated, GW actively says they don't want to bother making rules for them due to the additional strain on their team, even though the amount of sheets is a very small piece of the pie. That shakes people's faith in their rules. So they either suck or are OP. The former means they're no longer played with no chance of them being in the near future due to being out of the balance loop, or being OP and not wanting to be played against and being out of the balance loop. 

 

You've put the cart before the horse on this.  The datasheets are there.  The rules state it's fine to use.  It's not GW's fault that you and your gaming group are incapable of having civil discussions.

[Karhedron]

10 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

You've put the cart before the horse on this.  The datasheets are there.  The rules state it's fine to use.  It's not GW's fault that you and your gaming group are incapable of having civil discussions.

 

That's the point though, the rules are not fine to use. GW has drawn a arbitrary distinction between "tournament legal" and "Legends". There is no need for this and they could fix the problem with relatively little effort if they chose to. By drawing that dividing line, GW have tacitly declared those models to be unbalanced and given people a reason to refuse to play them. GW made the problem in the first place by overpowering FW units until 9th edition. They could fix it by dropping this silly distinction of "legends" but instead they just choose to get all slopey shouldered.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Karhedron

[Marshal Reinhard]

41 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

Yeah GW is hardly blameless in this, they have had literal decades to see how "opponents permission" or "not tournament legal" works out in practice, they should know exactly how the community views these things, but its a convenient shield from criticism for decisions they know will be unpopular, because they are obviously bad decisions for the community.

This is also simultaneously true as well. It's absolutely a shared responsibility. The community is to blame for not accepting Legends outside tournaments. Totally. But GW can't put on blinders and go "La la la la, I don't hear you" either. It was no surprise it'd go this way and they knew it.

[Karhedron]

15 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

The community is to blame for not accepting Legends outside tournaments.

 

I am sorry but I cannot accept that assertion. GW were the ones who created the idea of different tiers of legality in the first place with Legends, Matched play, tournament legal etc. Then they inflamed the problem by making FW units overpowered for years. This is not old history either, Iron Hand Leviathan-spam was dominating the meta right until the start of 9th. Now they have dumped a whole load of FW units into "Legends", a category which they have spent years making the "community" hate.

 

This is not the community's fault. GW created the problem entirely by themselves. Saying the community is at fault for their reaction is verging on victim-blaming.

[Doghouse]

Are they actually planning on giving points for this stuff? At this point it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't to discourage people from using them.

[crimsondave]

4 hours ago, Stitch5000 said:

Yeah I don;t have an encyclopedic knowledge of previous warcom articles mate... 

I'm absolutely certain now thaough, that y'all are basing your outrage on a throwaway sentence in an year old web feature that was written in reference to a previous version of the game. 

Crack on!

At some point, it’s best to just stop typing.

[crimsondave]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

 

This is a community failing, not a GW failing.  Tell these people to get over themselves.

Jesus.  H.  Christ.  
 

HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO GO OVER THIS BS?!!!!

[Captain Idaho]

It's gaslighting in this circumstance to say to people (the community) they're at fault for not accepting something poor, unbalanced or unsupported.

 

Just because YOU don't care if you play something unbalanced, unsupported and broken/under powered, doesn't mean everyone else has to accept that.

 

No one has to accept broken things. It's not a community failing they are being presented with something soon to be outdated when the first major Codex comes out (Space Marines), left behind and ultimately unsupported for the rest of the edition.

 

It's an odd lack of empathy really. People have said "I don't get it," which is probably the point.

 

To reiterate; people don't want to play out of date, unsupported and unbalanced rules.

[Stitch5000]

1 hour ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

Until now these units crossed over with minor restrictions (pay 1cp) that being said do we even know if most tournements will restrict them given the backlash or if GW will decide to maintain thier stance on legends especially given the fallacies of thier arguement having been pointed out by me and many others across the internet. What we do know is that no one wants to proxy a model they spent thier hard earned money on as another beacuase the billion dollar company that sold it to them is trying to gaslight them into believing it's too much work to keep balanced over the course of a short edition where the last codex produced will only last 3-4 months.

 

These models are bought with money wich is our time and essentially our lifes blood we put up with edition churn is it too much to ask that we are rewarded for our sacrifice in dollars and time spent painting and modeling these pieces that were sold to us in past confidence that we could use them without restrictions based on false logic and dubious intent. After all it is the data we provide through tournaments that is used to "balance" the game and no extra work is done for this pursuit even if they were not arbitrarily restricted.

 

It's not about competitive vs narrative it's about being told the things you spent your money on aren't valid because they aren't valid everywhere because the very people who sold it to you said they couldn't be bothered to keep it relevant. I wonder why people are mad. 

Dude. It;s a plastic model. GW have no dominion over the course of the rest of your life because you painted one. You can literally do what you want with it. 

Use the rules you have, play a different version of the game. Even download whatever you like from whatever mirror of Pirate Bay is up right now. They still exist and if you want to play them you can do it. It;s not like somebody turned the servers off and deleted the ability to play the game. 

People bemoan the actions of GW but you don't have to do things you don't like doing. 
 

[Bouargh]

"Friends", "Gaming group", "Community"... All of this endorse realities that may be very different from one place to another and from one person to another.

So what remains when you are playong with a potentially diverse and variable audience of other gamers, what is the lowest common denominator?

 

Once answered to this every kind of other argumentation becomes pointless, because in the end the so called famous lowest comon denominator is the ultimate published/valid set of rules.

 

What is validity? Well it´s that what is updated. And if the update rhythm is points review once per quarter and Balance dataslate once per semester, it imposes a pace. A pace from which Legends are explicitly excluded. So eventually Legends are fine today as eevrything is released at the same time, but what will be the case in 3 months? In 6 months? 

I can just imagine fitting a LR from the SM codex being revised in points (increased) or losing assault ramp because it is too much efficient vs. fieldind a proteus LR toolkited in the same way but never updated. Will the balance shift be acceptable then?

 

Now, can we just forgot about the word "Legends" and imagine for example that I decide to field a Corvus black star in a BA army. Would it be fine? No it would not, except in friendly games. and this is the area where the managment of Legend let these Legendary units: they are condamned to friendly games. But you can not always plan and organize a friendly game as it requires agreements forehead. Not all games nights or pick up games allow this. 

 

I think Leegnds are a poor answer to a problem of egg and hem. the issue is not assuming decisions of pasing out these units. Why? Because it hurts and makes you loose customer - see AoS launch failure and time needed to recover. This is a trauma for both players and Sales persons.

 

My alternative: I will go and play HH instead. After all, being Marines again Marines, it is by designed balanced (or at least, in case of poor design, it is less unbalanced), and my costly toys will fit there... But I can afford it, not everyone can say the same.

But can we let this away? This is a sterile debate that is turning in closed loop again and again... It will not be solved, whatever individual opinions and Angst maybe. 

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Bouargh
numerous tipos

[Karhedron]

7 minutes ago, Stitch5000 said:

Use the rules you have, play a different version of the game. Even download whatever you like from whatever mirror of Pirate Bay is up right now. They still exist and if you want to play them you can do it. It;s not like somebody turned the servers off and deleted the ability to play the game. 

 

Actually, that is exactly what it is like. For better or worse, most clubs and independent stores default to tournament rules, especially for pick up games. Putting stuff in Legends excludes these units from those settings.

 

Many of us don't have the luxury of being able to host games in our own houses or have a local club with broad-minded members. If the majority of opponents refuse to play against specific units because of GW's decisions, it is exactly as if they turned off the server and deleted those units from the game. 

 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Karhedron

[Balerion84]

3 minutes ago, Stitch5000 said:

Dude. It;s a plastic model. GW have no dominion over the course of the rest of your life because you painted one. You can literally do what you want with it. 

Use the rules you have, play a different version of the game. Even download whatever you like from whatever mirror of Pirate Bay is up right now. They still exist and if you want to play them you can do it. It;s not like somebody turned the servers off and deleted the ability to play the game. 

People bemoan the actions of GW but you don't have to do things you don't like doing. 
 

He still needs an opponent. It's not a solo game and as people here are trying the explain, the opponents often times have, surprisingly, I know, issues with playing against models that will (or are) not balanced. I know, shocking. 

 

I'm actually surprised some people here have to keep explaining that over and over again. 

 

How about GW providing support and updates for products that they sold these people? 

 

[Joe]

9 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

To reiterate; people don't want to play out of date, unsupported and unbalanced rules.

 

An extension to this would be that those communities that wind up in this situation often wind up coming together to keep a system alive; Blood Bowl (at least until it was revived officially), Mordheim and Battlefleet Gothic have thrived over the decades despite being technically unsupported and out of date, long before the current surge in 3rd party and 3D printed goods.

 

It does help that those communities self-moderate far more effectively, admittedly.

 

[Captain Idaho]

6 minutes ago, Joe said:

 

An extension to this would be that those communities that wind up in this situation often wind up coming together to keep a system alive; Blood Bowl (at least until it was revived officially), Mordheim and Battlefleet Gothic have thrived over the decades despite being technically unsupported and out of date, long before the current surge in 3rd party and 3D printed goods.

 

It does help that those communities self-moderate far more effectively, admittedly.

 

 

So ironically enough, if GW killed the game and stuck to the rules, the community would likely come together and build a ruleset.

 

Probably update it better too! 

[Joe]

22 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

So ironically enough, if GW killed the game and stuck to the rules, the community would likely come together and build a ruleset.

 

Probably update it better too! 

 

Unfortunately, I don't really think the community for Warhammer 40,000 would actually manage that successfully. Many of the cultural issues that were root and stem in WHFB persist in 40k, and we saw what happened with that post-End Times.