[HH1.0] Iron Warriors Tactics

[Hesh Kadesh]

Repeat after me.

 

There are 150,000 + legionaries in most legions. Battles of even 5000 pts would probably struggle to field 0.1% of a legion, and probably little more than 5% of a basic company engagement. What you are showing is a snap shot of the most important part of the battlefield, when the fighting is at its most brutal; either the initial drop of when the commander has commited his elite forces in a linebreaker maneuvre.

 

All legions have the ability to operate at all levels, and if anything playing it 'right' is likely playing it 'wrong'. After all, was it not Perturabo who said War was a mathematical equation, and putting the strongest at the enemies weakest point for long enough was simply algebra?

 

I don't he'd say 'I have 90 Siege Terminators here, lets only put 10 of them there because it is apparently the right way to play'.

[NonExistentOne]

No way he could join it.

 

Tgier use is to make Pert nigh invulnerable with rerolls to his 3++ against blasts as you March them up the field laying down the dakka until you charge something, and Lord help that unit.

 

The problem is that you are investing 600+ in points to a unit that probably won't see much combat. Who would try to engage Perturabo + retinue when they can just stay out of their path while they walk around doing jack?

[Terminus]

 

No way he could join it.

 

Tgier use is to make Pert nigh invulnerable with rerolls to his 3++ against blasts as you March them up the field laying down the dakka until you charge something, and Lord help that unit.

 

The problem is that you are investing 600+ in points to a unit that probably won't see much combat. Who would try to engage Perturabo + retinue when they can just stay out of their path while they walk around doing jack?

I'd throw some fearless militia at them so they can't even walk around. The Iron Circle attack volume is really low. :P

[BrotherGecko]

Not to needlessly contradictory but you could easily fit a company level operation at 5000pts. It would just be 100 marines and that is it. Anything outside of the company would be a battalion or grand battalion level operation. For which you wouldn't be likely be using more than 5% would be very true.

 

The better answer would be, why does every IW force seem to have the same amount of maximal optimization of a single IW unit present in every force for every operation. Including those were they wouldn't be optimal if it was for the quirk of the 40k rule set and Tyrants being good in numbers inside that rule set.

 

Playing it 'right' would be playing it 'wrong' in the confines of the 40k rule set and competitive army building.

 

Mass siege tyrants are playing the rules over the fluff. Which is fine, completely fine and nobody should feel bad for having had done it. It just not really the 'theme' nor is it particularly fluffy just because IW and UM have terminator missile platforms nobody else has.

 

Either way its neither here nor there. Unless it was a typo or mass emails can get FW to change them back to elites, this conversation on siege tyrants is pointless. I've explained why they are not what people think they are from the perspective of someone who has actually done a job about as similar as you can possibly get in the real world to IW work.

Edited February 10, 2016 by BrotherGecko

[Terminus]

Repeat after me.

 

There are 150,000 + legionaries in most legions. Battles of even 5000 pts would probably struggle to field 0.1% of a legion, and probably little more than 5% of a basic company engagement. What you are showing is a snap shot of the most important part of the battlefield, when the fighting is at its most brutal; either the initial drop of when the commander has commited his elite forces in a linebreaker maneuvre.

 

All legions have the ability to operate at all levels, and if anything playing it 'right' is likely playing it 'wrong'. After all, was it not Perturabo who said War was a mathematical equation, and putting the strongest at the enemies weakest point for long enough was simply algebra?

 

I don't he'd say 'I have 90 Siege Terminators here, lets only put 10 of them there because it is apparently the right way to play'.

This is all fine and good, but come on, Perturabo also doesn't go "drat, I only have elite slots for 4 veteran squads for this very important mission".  If we're talking fluff, Perturabo also probably knows better than to put all his eggs in one basket.  Apply strength to the enemy's weaknesses, but don't create any new weaknesses for yourself, and all that.

 

Your argument would make more sense if they got restricted to 0-1, but instead you are limited in spamming them alongside similar heavy elements.  The FOC is there for balance.  I am sure folks would let you play some Apocalypse or unbound formation that runs all 90 Siege Terminators.  Just by calling them that you admit that their role is more heavy support rather than elite frontline infantry.  During the Weekender unveilings, you yourself raved about how potent the new rules would make Iron Warriors, before the FOC change was noted.  And I quote:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282497-iron-hands-tactics/page-41?do=findComment&comment=4296424

"You win".

 

Basically, take everything that is strong about legion lists, and win.

 

Dreadclaw Terminators (the sooner FW remove access to all legion terminators getting this as a DT, the better for everyones list viability), with Monstrous Creatures (Iron Circle), AP2 Uber Accurate artillery, and Rocket Vomit.

 

Throw in fearless vs Shooting and evem Bitter End becomes less of an issue.

 

 

So I'm not really understanding where this newfound concern about player freedom and sticking to the narrative is coming from.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Terminus

[Hesh Kadesh]

Gameism's do not account for fluff. Ergo, you cannot say "This is a fluffy Iron Warriors army", and look down on others because they disagree with peoples interpretations of an Iron Warriors army. I'm not going to get into a fluff conversation because a "Primarch probably thinks X" "Well I think a Primarch thinks Y", least of all in a tactics thread.

 

By calling Phalanx Warders Phalanx Warders I'd think they'd be Elites. But they're not, they're Fast Attack, because they gain +1 Initiative when defending? No. That's not a defence.

 

As to that comment? Actually... nothing changes with regards to that list. Actually, it might even be better, depending on what point you play at. I wasn't caring about "sticking to the narrative". Just getting annoyed by people who thought they were sitting on their high horse by "sticking to the narrative". Death Guard is played better by Rhino Rushing Jump Packers with Infiltrators with a pair of Librarians. Fairly sure I was one of, if not the first persons to make that link between the synergy/requisite need to account for the deficiencies in the DG tactics that FW tried to enforce.

 

Iron Warriors have malingered at the lower tier of the Heresy meta since their release; does anyone really give a flying toss about Heavy Bolters, pinning or no? Wrecker grenades? No. Gun Them Down is absolute gash. Golg gave you Troops Terminators without Pride, but with Pride, you gained the ability to take Rockit Vomit as troops and have normal Terminators as Troops anyway. Golg offered very little. Kyr Vhalen offered some niche opportunities that need you to jump a bit through hoops for and inevitably hurt your list.

 

@Brothergecko, you're not being needless contradictory, but companies are of larger size for the most part in legions, more towards the 1000 marines of the chapter going by the Black Library books, although I'm sure that there is examples to prove me otherwise, along with the ancillary gear for them in the fight - like Rhino's, Transport, Field Artillery, Armour, Bombers etc. As to the rest of your answer, I could ask why every other Eldar Detachment just so happens to be joined by 4 Wraithknights, and a meta question, not a fluff relevant question. The answer is unit X is effective, and now change Y has turned unit X into a non entity, alongside unit Z which was fun but non competitive. You could equally use the same argument for the inverse, in that no legion force ever in their right minds includes Recon Squads. Ergo, only the most insane generals used Recon squads.

 

You have also helped prove my point that a Gameism is made, and sadly fluff suffers. That should not mean that Fluff has to needlessly make the game suffer to pigeonhole Iron Warriors out of a build that they have been using for 2 nearly DAMN YEARS! It would be like saying that Salamanders can only use Flamers, Blood Angels can only play Jump Troops, or Raven Guard Terminators do not exist.

 

Taking multiple scoring Terminators with a load of S8 AP3 Shooting with split fire and power fists was undoubtably effective. What would have happened if Pride of the Legion had changed to state that "Legion Terminator Squads, and legion specific Terminator Armour equipped units (any variant) with the Implacable Advance special rule normally available as as an Elite unit may also be taken as Troops unit."? Iron Warriors would have been slightly disgruntled that they've now got to maybe find some Legion Terminators. But no, FW decided to cut out Iron Warriors legion specific terminators, and bury them in the same slot that they share with the other legion specific unit (that performs the same job, but worse) that they also share with units/vehicles in the same slot (but they do the job but better).

 

The only other argument to that is that they could theoretically be useable in a Predator List. But then, that's not fluffy Iron Warriors to have Predator Squadrons supported by a Terminator Strike.

 

This is tactics, and this is 40K. Leave your fluff at the door. People are pissed off with this change more than many others (and don't say I didn't warn people about Shatter Shells on Quad Mortars), and rightly so. This has invalidated many peoples armies, and people are more annoyed by those who've gone to the effort of now creating models for a unit that they cannot really use.

 

What FW are now doing is actively hurting peoples pockets and armies, and playstyles due to a stupid unnecessary change, that comes from them YET AGAIN not knowing how to play their own game. I don't even play IW and I'm annoyed for their sake. 

[Doctor Perils]

The conversation about the Tyrant Siege Terms FOC change is interesting, and I'm no mod, but I think it might be a good idea to take a small time out, and then open a new thread about them...

[NonExistentOne]

What else is there to talk about, the new Ironfire RoW? On paper it looks boss, but it seems like a pretty easy gimmick to counter.

 

These are the Barrage options available:

- Medusa (No brainer)

- Quad gun - No barrage on Shatter shells, so Phosphex at 20pts a piece since we need a mandatory Siege Breaker anyways.

- Whirlwind Scorpius

- MoS / Damocles Rhino Orbital Bombardment - Probably lean towards the Damocles, to mess to reserve rolls of DSing enemies knocking out our backline artillery.

 

Deredeo would be pretty essential to protect our guns. Scoring ideally handled by Tac Squads with Nuncios (Are we expecting a points drop for breachers?).

 

Oh hey I already had most of these inclusive on my old Hammer of Olympia list. Except now I don't get an extra HS slot, and even if I did, I wouldn't want to put infantry in that slot when I now have access Vindicators in squads. So the new RoW didn't really change the way I played but now I'm missing Shatter Shells and Tyrants. And everyone has access to that new generic AM rite, too.

Edited February 11, 2016 by NonExistentOne

[1ncarnadine]

What else is there to talk about, the new Ironfire RoW? On paper it looks boss, but it seems like a pretty easy gimmick to counter.

 

These are the Barrage options available:

- Medusa (No brainer)

- Quad gun - No barrage on Shatter shells, so Phosphex at 20pts a piece since we need a mandatory Siege Breaker anyways.

- Whirlwind Scorpius

- MoS / Damocles Rhino Orbital Bombardment - Probably lean towards the Damocles, to mess to reserve rolls of DSing enemies knocking out our backline artillery.

 

Deredeo would be pretty essential to protect our guns. Scoring ideally handled by Tac Squads with Nuncios (Are we expecting a points drop for breachers?).

 

Oh hey I already had most of these inclusive on my old Hammer of Olympia list. Except now I don't get an extra HS slot, and even if I did, I wouldn't want to put infantry in that slot when I now have access Vindicators in squads. So the new RoW didn't really change the way I played but now I'm missing Shatter Shells and Tyrants. And everyone has access to that new generic AM rite, too.

 

There are actually two other new shell types for quad guns you could use that do have Barrage.

 

Incendiary Shells, which are 12-60" range S4 AP5 with Ignores Cover (yaaaay...)

 

or Splinter Shells, 12-36" S2 AP4 Rending (a little better)

 

I think Phosphex is still the real winner. Hard to argue against 3+ poison AP3 with crawling fire and 4 to 12 permanent 3" dangerous terrain markers on whatever's left.

[Brofist]

That ROW is all about the allies. Again, the wording makes it clear that "friendly Iron Warrior units" can confer and get iron fire benefits. The only thing they can't have is fearless. If I was running this ROW I would build it around something like this:

 

 

Iron Warriors with Reductor Allies

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[HQ]

Siege Breaker

 

[Elites]

x2-3 Thudd Guns- Phosphex, Shatter

x2-3 Thudd Guns- Phosphex, Shatter

 

[Heavy Support]

x2-3 Medusa

Tyrant Terminators

Siege Dreadnought, Drop Pod

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[HQ]

Magos Reductor

 

[Troops]

3-6 Thallax

 

[Heavy Support]

x2-3 Medusa/Bombards with machine spirit/siege plating

 

The general strategy is to roll for 'world burner' and give your blast templates shred. Drop your dreadnought into the mouth of hell and then fire artillery all around them. Reductor Thallax deepstrike and create another focal point somewhere on the board. From here you need to decide on your troops- throwing them into a dreadclaw being a good way to tie your opponent down in their deployment zone while your artillery lands all around them. Alternatively you could take a Kharybdis and pack it with something of your choice. On the reductor side you need to decide what your magos will be doing- a Triarios is a good option, but baby sitting some castellax in your midfield is a good way to protect your rear line. If you have points outflanking Vorax is another way to create a focal point in your enemy lines. There are two major weakness- your rear line and no AA. If you drop the tyrants then a dodo dread is an auto take as it fills both roles. Alternatively a trusty kheres mortis or two can work well enough. Castellax or a Praevian are other solid options. I think this would be a fun and fairly competitive list, but it's points heavy due to the number of things you MUST take in order to get it to work. If they waived the 0-1 limit on our artillery support then it could be done in far fewer points. Taking SA instead of Reductor is also probably cheaper and provides a much better defense for your firing line.

 

Despite how much I want to run this, I just keep looking at the Iron Hand rules I have been using for the last 3+ years and they are just... better, more flexible, and more interesting. I hope FW gets their act together someday.

[NonExistentOne]

If we consider allies, wouldn't it just be easier to relegate the Legion as allies and take Ordo Reductor as the primary detachment instead? (since Rites with allies is a thing now)

 

Haha let this be our rallying flag:

http://i.imgur.com/uJEpOzq.jpg

[Brofist]

Wait, so allies with rites is a thing now? If so, then you're probably right. All you miss out on are several squads of thudd guns and reductor artillery is both better and cheaper.

[NonExistentOne]

Yeah it was clarified in the new FAQ. But it's a moot point as I re-read last sentence stating that the effects of the Rites don't from carry over from the primary detachment to allied and vice versa.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Repeat after me.

 

There are 150,000 + legionaries in most legions. Battles of even 5000 pts would probably struggle to field 0.1% of a legion, and probably little more than 5% of a basic company engagement. What you are showing is a snap shot of the most important part of the battlefield, when the fighting is at its most brutal; either the initial drop of when the commander has commited his elite forces in a linebreaker maneuvre.

 

All legions have the ability to operate at all levels, and if anything playing it 'right' is likely playing it 'wrong'. After all, was it not Perturabo who said War was a mathematical equation, and putting the strongest at the enemies weakest point for long enough was simply algebra?

 

I don't he'd say 'I have 90 Siege Terminators here, lets only put 10 of them there because it is apparently the right way to play'.

 

Pretty sure in the Iron Warriors Dodekatheon Perty was known as a Power Gamer and a Rules Laywer

[Gorgoff]

I have a question:

Is there a book or a short story in which the Tyrants or Havocs are mentioned? I real a couple myself and never heard of them outside the HH book.

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

 

Repeat after me.

 

There are 150,000 + legionaries in most legions. Battles of even 5000 pts would probably struggle to field 0.1% of a legion, and probably little more than 5% of a basic company engagement. What you are showing is a snap shot of the most important part of the battlefield, when the fighting is at its most brutal; either the initial drop of when the commander has commited his elite forces in a linebreaker maneuvre.

 

All legions have the ability to operate at all levels, and if anything playing it 'right' is likely playing it 'wrong'. After all, was it not Perturabo who said War was a mathematical equation, and putting the strongest at the enemies weakest point for long enough was simply algebra?

 

I don't he'd say 'I have 90 Siege Terminators here, lets only put 10 of them there because it is apparently the right way to play'.

Pretty sure in the Iron Warriors Dodekatheon Perty was known as a Power Gamer and a Rules Laywer

He's a munchkin who always rolled wizard 20.

[NonExistentOne]

I have a question:

Is there a book or a short story in which the Tyrants or Havocs are mentioned? I real a couple myself and never heard of them outside the HH book.

 

Iron havocs are the precursor to the CSM Havoc squads in regular 40k (You didn't draw similarities of their loadouts and being out-competed by other HS options? Hahaha). Most of the other unique Legion units were invented from scratch by FW.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@gorgoff there's one about him building warhound models and winning at 30k games, pretty sure he wrote the rules for those units to help him break the palace and win before turn 3. Forgeworld was so impressed they put them in the book

[Slips]

ಠ_ಠ

 

Ok....lets try and keep it on topic for a Tactica Thread though.

 

Feel Free to ask about Books in the general forums no matter the subject (So long as it relates to 30k in this instance) since you'll get the most visibility there as well as getting the eyes of the frater more versed in the literary side of things.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Slipstreams

[Gorgoff]

 

I have a question:

Is there a book or a short story in which the Tyrants or Havocs are mentioned? I real a couple myself and never heard of them outside the HH book.

 

 

Iron havocs are the precursor to the CSM Havoc squads in regular 40k (You didn't draw similarities of their loadouts and being out-competed by other HS options? Hahaha). Most of the other unique Legion units were invented from scratch by FW.

Hm, it's a pitty. I hoped that I can read some stories 'bout them. I'll ask in the general section then.

 

So, Vigilators.

Has anybody used them? Gonna try one out in a couple of minutes and let him outflank with some Breachers. But I'm curious if someone used him successfully.

[Doctor Perils]

It seems like quite a popular combination, so I imagine there's a reason.

I don't really know, but to me the vigilator with the iron circle (sorry gorgoff) could be quite a nice way of getting those S10 attacks in where it matters

[Gorgoff]

Dammit.

Ok!

Ok.

You can stop talking.

I'll buy one of the robots. ;)

 

Yupp, should be a nice combination if they arrive at the right spot.

By the way. My Vigilator and his Breacher squad just killed one Saboteur and one unit of Tactical Marines. Nice unit. :)

[Doctor Perils]

Dammit.

Ok!

Ok.

You can stop talking.

I'll buy one of the robots. ;)

 

Yupp, should be a nice combination if they arrive at the right spot.

By the way. My Vigilator and his Breacher squad just killed one Saboteur and one unit of Tactical Marines. Nice unit. :)

Cool :-)

[BrotherGecko]

Is there any info on whether Narik Dryegur has become an actaul SC instead of just a named Praevian?

 

I vaguely hoping he isn't because I'm almost finished painting the Centurion I made using him as the base model lol.

[Raktra]

He's a special character now. And a Shattered Legion Loyalist if desired.