Mechanist's Plog, Chaos Knights (yes Plural)

[Sgt. Blank]

Impressive work so far, the in process photos are very instructive. I am very impressed by your layering technique and the amoiunt oif foresight it requires.

[Subtle Discord]

A very good point and something I wanted to comment on now that I've had another quick look. The layering really does show just how, if you plan it right, if you can do something rather messy and rough around the edges, and then build up on top of it to make it seamless. It's something that I always struggle with when it comes to sculpting greenstuff; part of my brain refuses to accept that something can be broken down into layers to get the desired effect, and I keep thinking it has to be done in one go. I've started to come around personally, and work like this just reinforces it; virtually all techniques (painting, building, sculpting) require layers of work/details to be really successful. Embrace the idea and watch your technique improve!

[Svartmetall]

Loving the Knight so far - I always like to see 'labour of love' projects like this, they inspire me to push myself harder and do better. Keep up the good evil work!

[Mechanist]

So many comments I'll just throw a big thanks to you all. I really do appreciate them.

I will cover one thing because I think it is helpful for those like me over a year ago constantly unhappy or frustrated with their own work.

 

A very good point and something I wanted to comment on now that I've had another quick look. The layering really does show just how, if you plan it right, if you can do something rather messy and rough around the edges, and then build up on top of it to make it seamless. It's something that I always struggle with when it comes to sculpting greenstuff; part of my brain refuses to accept that something can be broken down into layers to get the desired effect, and I keep thinking it has to be done in one go. I've started to come around personally, and work like this just reinforces it; virtually all techniques (painting, building, sculpting) require layers of work/details to be really successful. Embrace the idea and watch your technique improve!

This is so true, I can really encourage people to do it. But don't think you have to know what you want exactly before starting. For me as a very visual person each stage helps to flesh out that image in my mind, but also give hints and possibilities as to what could come next. As you build up and see the transition points between sculpt and model you will also find yourself adapting you image. It's been a couple of times where I've been doing the details that finding it difficult to get the sculpting tool in place has raised the possibility of painting difficulties so I've extended the basic bulk a little to better match in with the line of the plastic kit.

 

For me though it's a very fluid process and I don't have any sketches or anything other than a rough idea when I start. By taking it slowly over many curing times I also have time to reflect and come up with more ideas as I see the thing take shape.

 

Lastly the best way to overcome the desire to do something in one go is to pick something where your desired effect makes that totally impossible like the carapace and definitely the back spine. by doing that you force yourself into taking it easier and can both get in the habit and also have the results to hand each time you think you can do that little bit more. The satisfaction of a job well done is a powerful tool in overcoming impatient and that desire to do it in one go, having something to look at and know you did that is very helpful.

[Mechanist]

Just finished the first Brazier so well on the way to having everything I wanted finished on this trip. Second brazier has had it's flames finished so should finish up tomorrow.

So over the weekend it looked like this, as you can see the moulded part needed some serious love and I've been pondering how to tackle it for a while.

I tried a ring of spikes or spines similar to the crown on the carapace but it just didn't work, stripping that off I gave some bony ridges around the top and down the sides. In the same vein as the Mark of Khorn on the pauldron it proved promising and after teasing out the top a bit to give the impression of a bowl I was pretty happy and just needed to finish up.

Before this I gave the Icon of Khone a quick once over, having removed all of the little spikes since many of them had poorly moulded I've decided to match the beaten copper effect from the pauldron. Both Icons have had the same treatment and once the other flame has cured I should be able to match it without to much difficulty.

[JeffTibbetts]

I kind of like the idea that, now that this beast is more flesh than metal, the need for actually exhausts or smokestacks is diminished. So, these have basically become ornamental. I'm sure the exhaust fumes can fuel the flames, but the flesh-pipes attest to the fact that it's probably more "chaotic" than that. :D 

[Biohazard]

This is looking great buddy, the detail on the torso is outstanding. The upper carapace and pauldrons are great as well. I love the layering.

 

I have to say though I think the horns on the head are a little overpowering. I love that piece and have used it on a converted daemon engine of my own a while back but I just feel the horns are a little much.

 

My worry is once you add the legs even with the armour panels etc it'll look a little top heavy?

Personal preference I guess. If you'll humour me though could I maybe suggest either sets of the horns from the chaos warrior chariot? Still big enough to fit in scale but I think they'll help make it a little less top heavy?

 

Of course it could always just be the pics as well that are throwing the proportions off. Anyway, keep up the great work buddy. :tu:

[Teetengee]

This is looking great buddy, the detail on the torso is outstanding. The upper carapace and pauldrons are great as well. I love the layering.

 

I have to say though I think the horns on the head are a little overpowering. I love that piece and have used it on a converted daemon engine of my own a while back but I just feel the horns are a little much.

 

My worry is once you add the legs even with the armour panels etc it'll look a little top heavy?

Personal preference I guess. If you'll humour me though could I maybe suggest either sets of the horns from the chaos warrior chariot? Still big enough to fit in scale but I think they'll help make it a little less top heavy?

 

Of course it could always just be the pics as well that are throwing the proportions off. Anyway, keep up the great work buddy.

alternatively, if the legs get the same bulking up treatment, the thing might just look massive, rather than top heavy.

[Andvarr A]

Don't you guys worry.. I'm sure that much won't skimp on the awesome details on the legs....

 

....

....

....

....if he does khorne won't help him

[Mechanist]

Hey guys, I'm home now from Korea and have some more to share, but first lets start with comments.

I kind of like the idea that, now that this beast is more flesh than metal, the need for actually exhausts or smokestacks is diminished. So, these have basically become ornamental. I'm sure the exhaust fumes can fuel the flames, but the flesh-pipes attest to the fact that it's probably more "chaotic" than that.

Part of the Idea is that there were 7 blessing placed on the knight and Pilot in the build up to deamonhood, One of these was a daemonforge and the flames and braziers are that gift. Once I get the next story written I'll share some of the notes on all 7 items for input.

This is looking great buddy, the detail on the torso is outstanding. The upper carapace and pauldrons are great as well. I love the layering.

I have to say though I think the horns on the head are a little overpowering. I love that piece and have used it on a converted daemon engine of my own a while back but I just feel the horns are a little much.

My worry is once you add the legs even with the armour panels etc it'll look a little top heavy?
Personal preference I guess. If you'll humour me though could I maybe suggest either sets of the horns from the chaos warrior chariot? Still big enough to fit in scale but I think they'll help make it a little less top heavy?

Of course it could always just be the pics as well that are throwing the proportions off. Anyway, keep up the great work buddy.

alternatively, if the legs get the same bulking up treatment, the thing might just look massive, rather than top heavy.

I see why your concerned and I'm really struggling to get the proportions clear in photos. with the added bulk of Spikes and stuff to the pauldrons it actually balances out the Horns quite nicely.

As for the legs I have already shared some pictures of my original work on one of those adding muscles and stuff, I'll also be adding some chain and bits. So far the extra bulk is working on the thigh area.

Don't you guys worry.. I'm sure that much won't skimp on the awesome details on the legs....

....
....
....
....if he does khorne won't help him

Well I fully plan to, but lets start with the mock up assembled pics first before I talk about a bulk up.

Gha that pic was much blurrier than I expected, normally I'm fairly careful and check before I move on so I can take another in case of any problems, however these were taken just before I needed to pack and get going.

As you can see here I've built up the armour round the melta gun, mimicking the original but with a bone effect. There is still a little gap filling or I'm going to have a nightmare time painting it. I'm thinking of the hellbrutes fleshy bits for this as inspiration, though not to much as to overpower the design, just enough to fill the toughest to paint gaps and maybe mimic the gun mantel that's currently missing.

Now we get to see more of the original bulking out of the leg, I feel that the thigh is just fine here and once the armour is on the ankles and with a touch of work that should be fine.

Again more of the leg, I'll be adding fleshy pipes and pistons to replace the originals as well around the ankles.

There are two areas that currently concern me;

1. the waist and hips,
2. and the feet

The waist is fairly weedy right now and the hips likewise, even with bulked up thighs I would like sonthing a little more special. I'm sincerely thinking about splicing in some dino Hip bones to widen the area and continue the bone theme. I'll add some spines to them and have the ripping out of fleshy bits. I;ve also considered mocking up a tail for it. If I get chance this evening I may try a mock up.

As for the thighs the right one is basically done but I'm considering adding part of a bony Chaos star to the left one that will be a similar style to the Mark of khorne so not to worried about that.

The feet however are currently a bit of a mess, I'm sorely tempted at this point to go full Minotaur and swap the feet for hooves.

What do you guys think?

As for the weapons I had begun to try an idea with the chainblade but it's not staying like that I have a better one so next greenstuff session should see some movement on that.

[oldschoolsavant]

Hmmm, time to wade in:

 

- I'm hoping that's a rough posing, as the fist sticking out perpendicular looks very odd, especially in the front photo. Side photo looks better, with it tilted forward, but I'd try cutting at the shoulder (front/back joint) and extending the piston underneath (a banner pole would do. It'll give you a bit more room to manoeuvre perhaps ?

 

- Weight. He's a big chap already, and with all that GS, I dont want to think about how it'll base. Having a one-legged posed Kytan myself, it alone has warped it's plastic base over time, and I'd consider.....EDIT - thinking back you've converted that leg already. I'd now look at just replacing it with a sizeable metal rod to the 'knee', and work GS hooves around it, retaining the rear pistons for flavour. A wooden base is probably a requirement by now, no ?

 

- Hooves ? Go for it. It'd help with basing and spreading the weight through the one grounded leg using bulk GS, and cover up 'accidents' (hope not) if you drill for a rod *not an option ^. Perhaps an exoskeleton/frame plasticard on the other with a thin GS covering to keep the weight low ?

 

But yeah, as I learnt, if anyone is tackling a Knight, it's best to start from the base and work up, ensuring a good grounding. 

 

Still liking it, just concerned about the practicality of the weight, and a world away from my relatively unscathed trio. 

[Andvarr A]

When you've created a marvel from the waist up, the rest of it seems to become a struggle. I've came across it in sketches and concepts I've came up with. The top half looks the dogs danglys, but when it comes to the legs, it becomes an exasperation.

 

But then again, a bit of focus and concentration can yield the right results.

 

If you are going for hooves, then big mean and nasty hooves would be the way to go.

 

EDIT

 

Tie the chain blade in with the rest of the monster by putting a spine along the back of it...maybe a ribcage at the bottom of the blade??

Edited August 31, 2016 by Andvarr A

[Luna707]

Excellent stuff! With the amount of work you put into that upper half, I think you should invest in some appropriate legs. I think the bottom half of the Kytan Daemon Engine would really tie the whole knight together beautifully

[Mechanist]

Hmmm, time to wade in:

 

- I'm hoping that's a rough posing, as the fist sticking out perpendicular looks very odd, especially in the front photo. Side photo looks better, with it tilted forward, but I'd try cutting at the shoulder (front/back joint) and extending the piston underneath (a banner pole would do. It'll give you a bit more room to manoeuvre perhaps ?

 

- Weight. He's a big chap already, and with all that GS, I dont want to think about how it'll base. Having a one-legged posed Kytan myself, it alone has warped it's plastic base over time, and I'd consider.....EDIT - thinking back you've converted that leg already. I'd now look at just replacing it with a sizeable metal rod to the 'knee', and work GS hooves around it, retaining the rear pistons for flavour. A wooden base is probably a requirement by now, no ?

 

- Hooves ? Go for it. It'd help with basing and spreading the weight through the one grounded leg using bulk GS, and cover up 'accidents' (hope not) if you drill for a rod *not an option ^. Perhaps an exoskeleton/frame plasticard on the other with a thin GS covering to keep the weight low ?

 

But yeah, as I learnt, if anyone is tackling a Knight, it's best to start from the base and work up, ensuring a good grounding. 

 

Still liking it, just concerned about the practicality of the weight, and a world away from my relatively unscathed trio. 

Yes it is rough positioning as the arms are still lose and then to drop a little every time I move it. The fist is supposed to be mid swing and works quite well when I get the angle right. it's looking a little light without the armour on and I may end up leaving it till the waist and legs are done so I know if it'll need lengthening a bit.

 

Thanks for the info on the base, I may not go with a wooden one but I'll definitely reinforces the standard one, likely with a metal plate underneath and basing material on top. A good metal plate will let me to use magnets to hold it in a carry case as well. 

 

I'm leaning more and more towards hooves. 

 

 

When you've created a marvel from the waist up, the rest of it seems to become a struggle. I've came across it in sketches and concepts I've came up with. The top half looks the dogs danglys, but when it comes to the legs, it becomes an exasperation.

 

But then again, a bit of focus and concentration can yield the right results.

 

If you are going for hooves, then big mean and nasty hooves would be the way to go.

 

EDIT

 

Tie the chain blade in with the rest of the monster by putting a spine along the back of it...maybe a ribcage at the bottom of the blade??

Once I get focused on an idea it's much easier to progress I spend a lot of time just waiting for that spark of an image to begin moulding. 

rib cage could be interesting, I'm currently considering fingers and claws to look closer to a hand, or smaller fist than the gauntlet, something like the long fingers of the plastic daemon prince along the top and side of the blade. But I'll definitely mull over the rib cage and spine. 

 

 

Excellent stuff! With the amount of work you put into that upper half, I think you should invest in some appropriate legs. I think the bottom half of the Kytan Daemon Engine would really tie the whole knight together beautifully

I won't be shelling out £90 just for the legs right now but I've just had a look at the design and there are areas that I can look at building myself to help with the 'Sculptors Block' so thanks for the idea. I think the waist point is now just to small on the knight and the Kytan has that extra disk bit that it then runs a tone of cables up into the body from. Something like that would give me stuff to run up under the breast plate and just make it look a bit beefier. I can then rebuild the hips around it to include the hip bones and whatever else takes my fancy.

[KrautScientist]

Hmm, just a couple of observations/ideas, if I may:

 

• It's true that the legs don't seem quite as well planned and realised as the torso right now, but then when I look at the side view on that right leg, I think: "Yeah, this could actually work!", because it does look natural and plausible anough for me -- well, as natural and plausible as a daemonic monstrosity could ever possibly look, that is, but you get the picture ;)
• I think you may have bitten off a bit much with a combination of the heavily customised torso and the running pose. And I don't mean it's beyond your skills, but that it's maybe too much going on for one model, you know? Have you maybe considered rotating the left leg so it's not facing backwards in a running pose, but resting on some kind of rock (or fallen enemy vehicle) in front of the model? That way, you'd get to keep the idea of mobility, but the pose might be more balanced and stable, making the overall impression more solid (and also more stable in terms of balancing it all out on the base).
• Will you be adding some armour plates on the legs? I realise that you've given the legs some additional bulk with the GS flesh you've sculpted, but I think armour plates are really a necessity on a Knight's legs, because they add the bulk that's needed to make the whole ensemble come together. Even the stock Knight with all intended armour plates addedlooks top-heavy, due to the massive torso. And the second you do something to make the legs look less massive, they end up looking too weedy to support the massive upper body, in my opinion.
• Oh, and I'm not sure he really needs hooves, to be honest, although it's your call, of course.

Anyway, hope this helps! :)

[Andvarr A]

Hmm, just a couple of observations/ideas, if I may:

 

• It's true that the legs don't seem quite as well planned and realised as the torso right now, but then when I look at the side view on that right leg, I think: "Yeah, this could actually work!", because it does look natural and plausible anough for me -- well, as natural and plausible as a daemonic monstrosity could ever possibly look, that is, but you get the picture ;)
• I think you may have bitten off a bit much with a combination of the heavily customised torso and the running pose. And I don't mean it's beyond your skills, but that it's maybe too much going on for one model, you know? Have you maybe considered rotating the left leg so it's not facing backwards in a running pose, but resting on some kind of rock (or fallen enemy vehicle) in front of the model? That way, you'd get to keep the idea of mobility, but the pose might be more balanced and stable, making the overall impression more solid (and also more stable in terms of balancing it all out on the base).
• Will you be adding some armour plates on the legs? I realise that you've given the legs some additional bulk with the GS flesh you've sculpted, but I think armour plates are really a necessity on a Knight's legs, because they add the bulk that's needed to make the whole ensemble come together. Even the stock Knight with all intended armour plates addedlooks top-heavy, due to the massive torso. And the second you do something to make the legs look less massive, they end up looking too weedy to support the massive upper body, in my opinion.
• Oh, and I'm not sure he really needs hooves, to be honest, although it's your call, of course.

Anyway, hope this helps! :)

And pause for breath.....

 

Kraut does raise some valid points about the legs....seems to be in every tankish walker that gw have done, the legs are pretty much down as an afterthought, it's like they go into all this overload on the torso and upper body armour/weapons, but seem to forget the legs after all is said and done.

 

What you could do, is add flesh metal tassets to the upper legs, like the bone has warped out into this extra armour plate that should - visually - add extra bulk to the tops of the legs.

 

And as a final note, after looking at it, a more "heroic" stance would more benefit the monster, especially as it's bellowing in insane rage.

 

You could use the torso of a dead knight, or a wrecked tank, but a downed - headless mind you - knight would also fit the story of the 7th blessed.

 

Instead of hooves, how about mechanical claws, something that looks menacing and could be worked so that it's digging into the downed knight, extra menace like

[Mechanist]

KrautScientist, on 02 Sept 2016 - 3:02 PM, said:http://bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_images/carbon_red/snapback.png

Hmm, just a couple of observations/ideas, if I may:

• It's true that the legs don't seem quite as well planned and realised as the torso right now, but then when I look at the side view on that right leg, I think: "Yeah, this could actually work!", because it does look natural and plausible anough for me -- well, as natural and plausible as a daemonic monstrosity could ever possibly look, that is, but you get the picture
• I think you may have bitten off a bit much with a combination of the heavily customised torso and the running pose. And I don't mean it's beyond your skills, but that it's maybe too much going on for one model, you know? Have you maybe considered rotating the left leg so it's not facing backwards in a running pose, but resting on some kind of rock (or fallen enemy vehicle) in front of the model? That way, you'd get to keep the idea of mobility, but the pose might be more balanced and stable, making the overall impression more solid (and also more stable in terms of balancing it all out on the base).
• Will you be adding some armour plates on the legs? I realise that you've given the legs some additional bulk with the GS flesh you've sculpted, but I think armour plates are really a necessity on a Knight's legs, because they add the bulk that's needed to make the whole ensemble come together. Even the stock Knight with all intended armour plates addedlooks top-heavy, due to the massive torso. And the second you do something to make the legs look less massive, they end up looking too weedy to support the massive upper body, in my opinion.
• Oh, and I'm not sure he really needs hooves, to be honest, although it's your call, of course.

Anyway, hope this helps!

Hehe, Planning so impressed you guy think I do much of that...

Ultimately it's left me an a bit of a pickle, though I now have a vision that will get me our out it soon as I can sort the Bitz of the waist. Once that is sorted I'll revisit the pose and see how it looks, I like the aggression of running forward and feel doing on a different model later when the Daemon knight of Khorne should be the most aggressive means I may have to hold back in future, though Killing/just killed may be the way forward there.

However I see what you mean, part of doing the waist will involve separating the legs and reworking the current one, this will give me the freedom to really get the posing right. You can bet more picture will be coming during that process.

The full array of armour plates will be attached with suitable chaos embellishment (more skills as that will be one of the blessing)

I'm a little sold on hooves now. I've always wanted to kit every part of the kite with something, and the feet are one area I've not seen many people really play with.

Andvarr A, on 02 Sept 2016 - 3:27 PM, said:http://bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_images/carbon_red/snapback.png

And pause for breath.....

Kraut does raise some valid points about the legs....seems to be in every tankish walker that gw have done, the legs are pretty much down as an afterthought, it's like they go into all this overload on the torso and upper body armour/weapons, but seem to forget the legs after all is said and done.

What you could do, is add flesh metal tassets to the upper legs, like the bone has warped out into this extra armour plate that should - visually - add extra bulk to the tops of the legs.

And as a final note, after looking at it, a more "heroic" stance would more benefit the monster, especially as it's bellowing in insane rage.

You could use the torso of a dead knight, or a wrecked tank, but a downed - headless mind you - knight would also fit the story of the 7th blessed.

Instead of hooves, how about mechanical claws, something that looks menacing and could be worked so that it's digging into the downed knight, extra menace like

I have a bit selected for the banner and a plate for the Crotch ready, though some Tassets Might be a good shout, I'll see how some fit and what I've got to mock them up soon as the waist is done to attach them too.

A ruined opponent to stand on may also be a good shout, as above I'll get the waist working and see how I feel. I may have to dig round Ebay for something knackered and cheep to re-purposes.

As for claws I'll have a look round at options for parts the current sculpting is a bit ropy and while time and a rethink may well work getting some helldrake talons might be the way to go.

Right now I've not had much chance to do anything but I did take some closeups of the finished Pauldrons so I thought I would share them quickly now they are ready for paint.

Thought I'd go with smaller pics for these if you want to see better my gallery has them much bigger.

Mums birthday tomorrow so will have to see if I can get a start on the waist this weekend, though Kids not being asleep till gone 9 is a pain and kills doing stuff of an evening.

[Andvarr A]

Nice looking demonic spikeys...for tassets you may want to try building them from plasticard or even green stuffs and utilise the bone moulding options you've already done in the torso? Figure that the bone could be extruding out from the fleshmetal slightly...

 

...and if I recall what you mentioned earlier about a tail, a boney bladed protrusion would possibly fit well...but I digress it's your monster to Frankenstein hahah

[Teetengee]

If it has trouble straining the base or the waist, you may want to add chains hanging off the back that are whipping in the wind, with some of them down to the base for a touch of glue to rope it in.

[Mechanist]

So I'm back once again in Korea and nearly over the jet lag, (and the hangover from last night) without any kids, DIY or DnD game prep to distract me (well I'll be doing some DnD prep while greenstuff sets) I'll have plenty of evening time to get on with the 7 Blessed (need a final name for it as he's now technically had the 8th blessing, even if it involved some just as planned by Abaddon).

I have made a small start and as the next stage revolves round the legs and sorting a final pose and basing (I do listen to you guys see). Just before leaving I made an ebay purchase for that very purpose though it arrived monday by which point I was already at the airport so I'll save the exact details for a surprise.

Right now the legs look basically like this.

So while I've pulled most of them apart you'll note the new ball joint at the waist which will allow me a lot more freedom in positioning along with about half a cm extra height.

I'm planning on working my way down from the hips and expect to see more soon as this evenings little addition is currently setting and once the hips are in place I've got a fairly solid plan for what's next.

[Vairocanum]

Great that you have time to work on the knight again, looking forward to seeing the next update.

[Mechanist]

Thanks annoyingly they put the boat I'm working on into dry dock today so am stuck on it waiting for a way off.....

Did manage to get a bit more done last night and now I have a clear image of the next step it's moving along.  

[Andvarr A]

Big iron flesh beastie assembly. Just waiting for more awesomes

[Mechanist]

1st 3 progres picture of this trip yay, tomorrow I'll try with a light background so the details stand out a little better as they have clearly com out a bit on the rough side. Hopefully they give enough to show where I'm going with this.

As it starts I've added maybe 1/2 - 3/4 of a CM in height to the waste area and along with that continued the spine down from a cast of the next section from the original dinosaur kit. This kinda had to be done the more I looked at it, 1 to match the bulk out of the back and 2 to stope the spinal theam just ending with the torso. Such a major feature had to continue to make the whole thing feel like a single model and not some sort of cut and shunt job.
For a while now I've been eyeing up the various hip bones of the three dinos and wondering about incorporating them into the design, I've setteled on the T-Rex ones as the best option and have a vision of the front bits having the tabard nailed/blended into them. along with more flesh around and maybe a little more work to chaosify them with some small spiny bits, we'll see.
The aim will be to make a reasonable ball joint here that will allow me to convert and paint each leg separately and have a solid enough pin to then securely attache the whole thing together at the end.

The next stage is curing right now as I've begun to deal with the gaps and mark out the flesh/metal transition lines better pics tomorrow without such terrible contrast.

[Andvarr A]

Hahah you and those Dino Bones!!! Theyre an awesome addition to the figure! Makes it have a more organic feel amongst the metal - like a proper "you like my suit?"

 

Good stuff that man!!!