[HH1.0] 30k Space Wolves tactics

[Gorgoff]

 

So as promised in an attempt to get things moving in here again I did up a little summary. Obviously I can't completely remove my own bias but I'll do my best to include the points of view included in the thread.

 

Grey Slayers:

I wanted to start here because, well you always have to start here. Unlike other legions we don't get to start with the RoW because we have to take these guys. I think they are fine, I'd like the option of playing Armoured Breakthrough from time to time. I get it FW really want SW to be infantry heavy. I would say as a troops choice they are decently effective, and have a decent price. They don't get character support, but also they can function without it which is more than you can say about a Tac squad. They come in two flavours.

 

1. Min with tools. 10 men, GFB, 2 combi-weapons, maybe a power weapon or 2, in a Rhino, with a multimelta.

Its self suffecient, and deadly, but won't stand alone against enemy specialists like terminators. But they will bully other troops choices at a decent cost. True grenadiers.

 

2. 15-20 Brothers. Sprinkle in powerfists and weapons, and let them get their horde on. I actually think they make a better defencive unit than offensive unit. Outflank and run onto an objective with bolters and be generally annoying to remove.

 

The Staples: There are a few units I feel every SW list needs to include, they give the neccesary support for you to play the game. SW are just always going to stuggle against any army with more than two AV14 hulls, especially if they are shooty like the Dracosian. The further down the list you get the smaller the need.

Primaris Lightning - It cracks Spartans and super heavy vehicles, we need this no discussion

Javalin Land Speeder - Multi-melta, 2x Hunter Killer, and your choice of 3rd weapon, medium or heavy anti-tank, I like CML for cost but Lascannon isn't a terrible choice since I doubt you have any elsewhere

Whirlwind Scorpius - Good against 2W terminators, Custodes, and Tanks

 

Now we can move into RoW:

I'm going to stay on the ones that don't require any logical gymnastics to take, so the ones that don't change your compulsory troops. The Pale Hunter, The Bloodied Claw, Armoured Spearhead, Orbital Assault, Angel's Wrath, Sky Hunter Phalanx. Leaving out the Flyer RoW, that gives us.

 

The Pale Hunter: Love to hate, hate to love. It is a very SW RoW, but the technical limitations, and meta units really make this RoW suffer. No drop pods cuts out one of the most effecient Heavy support choices the Leviathan. So unlike Terror Assault its difficult to maximize the 1 slot you have.

 

I think its actual best use is with a bait allied detachment. Something tough enough to hold out, but weak enough to get the enemy to approach. AoD objectives don't really force early turn movement so you need something worthwhile. 25% of your points worthwhile.

 

Hvarl might be needed to get decent units in reserve. 2 units of Grey Slayers, and probably something to put Hvarl into. 2 units of Vets provide a good shooting base coming in. Don't mistake it this is a shooting RoW, and Hit and Run lets you get out of any combats the enemy tries to pin you in and keep shooting.

 

The Bloodied Claws: The assault RoW. This army can move quickly. 2x Howl gets you across the board and into assault. Dreadclaws are a solid source of terminators movement to bring heavier assault units. A consistency ruling for DDP and Levi, are a good way to round out your drop pod numbers. I think this is actually our base set up. Since its restrictions are generally mild, and its bonus are easy to proc.

 

Armoured Spearhead: This is the "No RoW, RoW" it combines effectively with our LA:SW rules, Redblade, and doesn't restrict anything in the army. Even if you just take it for -1 Ld on tank shock, it is better than no RoW. Your Terminators

can even still take Dreadclaws. This is assuming you don't want to take footslogging Slayer hordes, or heavy support squads. It would be nice if the RoW gave all transports extra armour or something.

 

Orbital Assault: Honestly I think we are an ok Orbital assault legion. Ignoring Night Fighting, and counter attack actually make our troop units in pods worthwhile, when combined with combi weapons. But, other Legions just don't drop their tacs until turn 2 or take assault squads so there is that. My issue is it is a fairly boring RoW after you play it enough times.

 

I'll try and post some stuff about the Legion units tomorrow.

Great stuff so far.

Keep going buddy.

[Baluc]

Before we go on, I think its important to decide on the identity of the Rout. Unlike the other legions done to date we don't have a clear conception of how ther army should play on the table top. Which makes reviewing our rules difficult because we don't have a greater context of how the army is envisioned to play.

 

So... What does this all mean to us? I think we need to roll back from army builds and take a real look at our rules, be as they may, and see what units benefit from them and how they can fit into the bigger picture.

 

Bestial Savagery, I'm going to separate the two rules gained because I think they don't actually benefit all units in ways you should plan around.

+1 Ws on the charge: This one is straight forward. Helps increase the reliability of our assault units. In this case it is best on units Ws5 as it gives them the opportunity to fight a variety of units hitting on a 3+. It also helps out core units edge out other players core units. Helping Grey Slayers edge out vets and the like. Building Assault units is difficult because we don't have the same breadth of support characters, and Priests are locked in as infantry support (no jump packs, or bikes). 

 

Deathsworn: are decent shout, they like all assault units need a raider or a dreadclaw, and they like all assault units need a claw or a Raider. The cheap version would be 10 with 2 GFB, the expensive version is 9 w/ a fist, and a Priest.

 

Command Sqds: There is the Bike CMD sqd, and a the Terminator CMD. I think the Bike one is best since it doesn't need a transport, but it can't get priest support which is one our most efficient choices. A Forge lord or a Wolf Lord probably belong here if they aren't Red-Blade. Bike squads are vulnerable to poor hit rolls and there isn't anything you can really do about that besides leveraging Bestial Savagery.

 

Terminators: Unfortunately I think are out as an assault unit. The lack of Character support, and built in points costs of playing SW makes the Spartan a hard sell if you want an army. In OA they also suffer from having to be a turn 2 unit, when you probably want your toughest units down T1. It is quite possible that SW Legion terminators are a duff unit, I would say Varagyr are for sure. 

 

 

Counter-attack:

Taking a charge is generally a bad idea. Having counter-attack doesn't change this, and usually you are going to want to shoot, and wipe the unit out so your opponent doesn't get a chance to optimize or increase his chances locally. It is a decent break incase of imergancy rule though, like the WB/SM leadership rules. But, the shoot, assault, take counter assault plan isn't strong especially when you are doing it with your troops choices.

 

Terminators: Its good on them since they tend to have low levels of attacks, and can take a decent amount of fire and incoming attacks. Also Terminator weapons are high quality so the +1 A is a better deal.

 

Deathsworn: Defensive grenades, Rad Grenades, Preferred Enemy(with a priest) and a 2+ save make them a rough unit to engage in assault. Counter attack just puts it over the top to the point that even terminators might not want to engage. With a Priest they might actually outfight Red Butchers. 

 

Grey Slayers: If your Grey Slayers look like they might get assaulted, by anything that isn't a troops choice... Don't let them, get them out of there. Assault units will kill 10 man Grey Slayers and cripple 15 man units. Most of your game plans will revolve around getting your grey slayers somewhere, don't let them die. Counter-attack is a rule of desperation in this case, not something to be leveraged.

 

Hunter's Gait: 

This rule is mostly pointless. It be one thing if it was +1 run, and +1 Pile-in moves. But consolidation moves are pretty weak in 40k 7th edition, since you cannot consolidate into combat, and cover is a model by model basis. It's a small buff on footslogging Grey Slayers, but I'll get to why footslogging GS are mostly a bad choice a little later on. Given that almost no units real units benefit from this rule. It mostly is only a consideration in the final turn when you are trying to decide how far you need to move to reach an objective. I'm also unsure if it affects Jump Infantry, but not affecting Tartarus is a crime. 

 

Preternatural Senses:

This is one of those all time quiet busted rules. A huge nerf to infiltrate is amazing, forcing units to move if they want to alpha strike you which brings all sorts of issues. 

Re-rolling table sides when outflanking is meh, considering how rare scout or outflank are on LA:SW units or LA units in general. I think the best use is actually shooty Vorax, but I've used it on Vets as well since they get outflank.  Red-Blade gives you more choices on units, but I think he is generally a trap in Age of Darkness Missions, since the RoW with the most synergistic principles seriously restricts where he can go. He does work in a infantry horde list I'll admit but I question the long term viability of such lists. 

 

Ignoring Night Fighting with your LA:SW units is also pretty good, however its impact is less than you would believe given what I say later on about how SW excel at playing. Combined with the infiltrate nerf it does let us laugh at NL though. 

 

So where does this leave us?

 

Now when I think about legions I like to imagine a real world counter part. Something tangible I can model off of. For me SW scream Wehrmacht, which is to say the tactical and technical organisation, often casual referred to as Blitzkrieg. The truth is Blitzkrieg isn't an actual tactical application or theory, it is the visual of the doctrine of Schwerpunkt (“main focus, focal point, center of gravity”). The combination of Air, Infantry and Armour, organised into ad-hoc groups to achieve specific targets as the campaign developed. It can be scaled down to engagement scale as well.

 

This means taking units that help fill roles in imaginative ways. Why I don't believe in massed infantry on foot is because tactically they require the player to control non-valuable territory to keep them alive. It means preventing, deep strike zones, and rapid movement units from getting between the infantry and their specialised support. Even Grey Slayers with their varied equipment need dedicated anti-armour support. So that a Contemptor, or worse a Leviathan doesn't wander into dangerous zones and cripple them.

 

Armoured infantry units don't have such a significant weakness since it requires the enemy teaming up very different resources. AA for the rhino and anti-infantry for your dudes. In terms of dedicated anti-tank, you would be looking at units like the Primaris Lighting, Fire Raptor, or Sicaran Battle tank w/lascannons. Lightning is 1+ like I said earlier, but Fire Raptor and Sicaran are probably a wash depending on which you prefer. Since I would reserve the Sicaran anyway. 

 

Our rules always want us on the front foot, but we are determined defenders as well, capable of holding ground if need be, for a limited amount of time without extra support. There are a few holes in the analogy however. Our outright prohibition on certain units, means that we need allies if you really want to address certain weaknesses. I normally shy away from LA allies, and our poor non-LA allies chart means we aren't going to make the best use of those.

 

I want to believe 'The Pale Hunters' is our best RoW in terms of getting the most of our units and playstyle. It lets us be off the board, and safe from Alpha strikes, reliably come onto the board, even if it is just from normal reserves, and get ourselves out of fights we don't want to be in with hit and run. It does however limit our best assault unit Deathsworn to a Land Raider, which I don't like at all mainly due to cost, and size.

 

If you don't do Pale Hunters you do open up your selection choices, losing the technical abilities for your SW warriors. I still haven't figured out how to manage the 3 compulsory hqs at 2.5k but one step at a time. I think I will be looking at trying to build a Bloodied Claw build that emulates Pale Hunter. No hit and run does mean you need to be more careful with your infantry though.

[Dantay VI]

I asked FW a few questions about warriors mettle and Praetor HQ plus Grey Slayer.

 

Apologies if this has already been answered by FW on here already:

 

Thanks for contacting is and we will do our best to answer your questions below.

Grey Slayers have to be taken as the compulsory Troop Choices in a Heresy Space Wolves army. As such this will mean that certain Rites of War that change what units are compulsory Troops choices (you would have to check the details for each R.O.W for this) are off limits for them unfortunately. The only exception to this is if Leman Russ is taken as the armies Warlord as per the The Circle of the Varagyr rule on page 237 of Inferno. 

We have asked our studio to address in a future FAQ how the Warriors Mettle rule interacts with attached Independent Characters but in the meantime we suggest that in your games this rule passes to them if they are attached to the unit with it as well.

For Hvarl Red-Blade and Geigor Fell-Hand are you asking if they would count as the compulsory Praetor or Centurion for a Space Wolves Detachment? If so then this is another question that we have passed to our studio and hopefully it will be covered soon. Leman Russ is a Lord of War choice rather than an HQ choice so this wouldn't apply to him.

As per the information on page 223 of Inferno, any detachments in a Space Wolves army must take an HQ choice per 1000 points regardless of the Force Organisation Chart used. As such the normal maximum amount of HQ choices that can be taken is ignored. 

[Nova_chron]

I do feel like having warriors mettle transfer to ICs would fix slot of the constraints we wolves players feel when list building and I know I would love it haha but I'm a weird one who loves running grey tide lists with friends

[Baluc]

I'm playing in a 2750 3 game event this weekend, I've actually built a list that runs contrary to my own advice. I want to experience and put data to some of my ideas and see what comes of it. 

I have taken the following:

 

red-blade
foot slogging Grey Slayers

Deathsworn in a rhino

[GraemePaul]

So, I have been fretting over how to build my Grey Slayers and what their loadout should be.

 

Should I go small units of 10 or big units of 20, give them a transport, tool them up with power weapons or go with Bolters.

 

I see many players who view this unit as a problem for space wolves in 30k. They don't play well with characters due to their special rules, they limit the builds you can use and they encourage a foot slogging list which, in the world of Phosphex is suicide.

 

I am going to ignore the naysayers and look at what they can do to figure out the best options for this unit.

 

First things first, as space wolves they benefit from acute senses, +1 WS on the charge and +1" movement on running and consolidation.

 

Acute senses is a bit hit and miss outside certain builds so I am going to park that however, their other two legion rules partner very well with their own special rule which enables a charge after running or shooting Bolters with a -1 penalty to the distance moved.

 

Using math hammer this gives an average assault range of 20" which for a foot unit is pretty impressive. For comparison an assault marine moves an average of 21" when assaulting (assuming the JP is used to move).

 

The other big advantage grey slayers have is their large arsenal of weapons which, on a basic 10 man pack means a grey slayer pack with power weapons is the same cost as an assault squad.

 

We do however suffer a restriction for this, RAW means we are unable to use warriors mettle if an apothecary or any character joins the unit. This seriously effects our survivability however, I do not think it matters for wolves because of their cost per model is on a par with Tacticals which means we can take lots of tooled up bodies (3 with power weapons = 1 Artificer apothecary).

 

Irrespective of unit size I would always advocate 2 types of loadout:

 

1. Psudo assault squad tooled up with power weapons and a few power fists (with or without a Rhino). I would go a full 20man blob on foot with a 4 fists, frost weapon, 6 power weapons and the rest combat shields or heavy chain blades).

 

2. Back field/mid field objective campers. Everyone with Bolters and a few combi weapons (with or without a Rhino). On foot I would again go for the 20 man blob with 4 combi plasma and a power fist on the Huscarl. As this unit would be relatively stationary I would not worry as much about warriors mettle and put a legion Apothecary in the unit

 

In a basic list I would take 2 units of each in Rhinos at 2.5K as this gives you a good core for objectives and leave points left over for other things. In larger games I would go with blobs and put at least 1 unit in a spartan.

 

How do you see Grey Slayers, would you use them differently? I would love to hear your thoughts.

Edited January 19, 2018 by GraemePaul

[Baluc]

The problem with Grey Slayers is their crippling mobility issues, being infantry in the open and suffering from moral in the 7th edition rule set is basically suicide especially considering the sparsity of terrain on most tables. 

 

I`ve basically come around to and accepted the fact that SW have to play as an infantry assault army, and you basically are going to have limited legion toys because you either A) accept your two compulsory troops choices are going to be garbage or B) Double down and go for broke. 

 

What this looks like in my mind is 2x10 grey slayers in a Land Raider squadron w/ a Proteus for Scout, and 2x 15 Grey Slayers outflanking from Hvarl. Then adding support where you can.

 

Why I've shifted to B) rather than the minimum investment is because we need scoring units, and given our heavy restrictions on Drop pods getting Terminators around the board is extremely rough.

[Hellrender]

Anybody else having issues making lists that do not include Hvarl? As more of a narrative gamer, i'd like to have my own Jarl. However, Hvarl just brings so much, and in fact, mandatory things when running SW ROW's. I refer to the 3 infantry units get scout. His warlord trait, heavy bolter and good weapon are just icing! 

Do you ever play without Hvarl? If so, what do you 2k-2,5k lists look like?

[Baluc]

Anybody else having issues making lists that do not include Hvarl? As more of a narrative gamer, i'd like to have my own Jarl. However, Hvarl just brings so much, and in fact, mandatory things when running SW ROW's. I refer to the 3 infantry units get scout. His warlord trait, heavy bolter and good weapon are just icing! 

 

Do you ever play without Hvarl? If so, what do you 2k-2,5k lists look like?

 

He is a pretty ok character, his warlord trait and scout ability are amazing though. His AoE preferred enemy helps buffing units that can't have Characters, and the scout move is pretty flexible. 

 

The only reason to give up the Prefered enemy is if you want 2x howls. So Russ. 

 

I've been working on a infantry assault, backed up by dreads idea, so Red-Blade helps a lot as its essentially just a run and gun msu army. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by Baluc

[Dantay VI]

I happen to be thinking of putting 2 squads of 20 grey slayers together.

 

Not too fussed by points at this time, thinking one pack as a big game hunter and 1 pack for taking on infantry and hordes.

 

Also want them adaptable enough to break up into 4 packs of 10.

 

Considering

 

Huscarl with gfb, artificer armour.

19 slayers, 4 Power fists, 2-3 heavy chain blades, 5 shields lots of power weapons, 5 - 10 bolters.

 

Bolters to lay down fire on the run in, shields to act as mobile ablative armour for pack, the rest to wreck face in assault

 

Similar load out in the second pack, but maybe more use of claws rather than fists.

 

What are your thoughts??

 

I already have 4 packs of 10 tactical veterans tooled up with combi weapons etc, so in a pinch I could run them as shooty slayers, hence I am more interested in assault slayers.

[LukeTheButcher]

OK, so I am no expert on this game by any strech. But I have done a fair bit of list building, played some games and watched/read battle reports where I can find them.

 

And I have a question/Topic for debate.

 

Is the Primarch Deathstar for Space Wolves a Trap?

 

Now, I have run Russ every chance I can get and he has done very well (when I can get him in combat). But I am concerned that as a Primarch killer, he can't go against a Deathstar alone. And then when I look at the SW supporting cast, I am not sure he can compete even with his own Deathstar. I have found that in most instances, the 'bodyguard' unit are instrumental in dealing wounds to the enemy Primarch once the enemy 'bodyguard' has been removed. The Wolves can do this, but I am wondering if our elites are good-enough to actually take on and beat other Legions Deathstar troops of choice. We will certainly do well against some Legions (less melee focused), but I just odn't think those legions are likely to have a Deathstar to defeat.

 

 - Ie, are we the SW ony able to set ourselves up to beat a Deathstar unit that won't actually get played? But againsth those that will see play, we acan't compete (either due to stats, inherent unit/Legion bonuses/Primarch boosts/cost effectivness...).

 

I am interested in your thoughts, as outside of a Deathstar unit, what is Russ's role?

 

Luke

[Charlo]

So, food for thought - WS4 enemies can't even hit Russ after the first round of combat. So you take a bodyguard and even if they are wiped out by the enemy, by the time the foe is attacking Russ he's untouchable outside of enemy champions or super elite units.

[Baluc]

Leman Russ and the Wolf-kin can actually fight pretty evenly with a Primarch deathstar. The Wolf-kin are Characters and can issue and accept challenges. 

 

 

 

So, food for thought - WS4 enemies can't even hit Russ after the first round of combat. So you take a bodyguard and even if they are wiped out by the enemy, by the time the foe is attacking Russ he's untouchable outside of enemy champions or super elite units.

 

 

 

Remember that Russ' armour only works on models in btb.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Baluc

[LukeTheButcher]

Also food for though, Russ's armour is only good vs base to base contact. Those WS 4 dudes within an inch of those in base to base contact can still swing away unrestricted.

 

 

I think our dudes get kicked in by their dudes, who then dog-pile Russ. So, should Russ focus on the opponents Bodyguard elite and save their Primarch for last?

[Gorgoff]

So Assault Marines. Do they work with the wolves?

[Spiritual Liege]

Hmm, why not. They get bonuses on the charge and one of their Rites even buff them.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Now that we have an FAQ update bringing an end to the Drop Pod and "immobile" shenanigans, how well would Drop Pods work with the Bloodied Claws RoW? 

[Baluc]

Lets you take deathstorms, and Dread pods at least.

 

Could KAC always transport rapier squads?

Edited July 12, 2018 by Baluc

[Gorgoff]

Lets you take deathstorms, and Dread pods at least.

 

Could KAC always transport rapier squads?

Yes.

[Baluc]

I'm moving to London, and event season is starting so time to kick the rust off this bad boy and get back to it.

 

After dabbling with Talons and using allies to cover obvious defeciencies I'm excited to explore our more limited group of options.

[Baluc]

I'm considering doing 2 packs of footsloggers with combat shields and an apothecary. Anyone have any experience?

[Guest Drekkan]

You simply cannot attached apothicary to grey slayers as the latter are not list in the potential units the former can join.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

You simply cannot attached apothicary to grey slayers as the latter are not list in the potential units the former can join.

 

 

Which is like totally and utterly wrong.

 

See page 32 of AoDL.

[Charlo]

 

 

You simply cannot attached apothicary to grey slayers as the latter are not list in the potential units the former can join.

 

Which is like totally and utterly wrong.

 

See page 32 of AoDL.

Yup, those apothecary rules that list certain units are HORRIFICALLY outdated.

 

Or else how would any units from legions released after use apothecarys?

[Guest Drekkan]

 

 

You simply cannot attached apothicary to grey slayers as the latter are not list in the potential units the former can join.

 

Which is like totally and utterly wrong.

 

See page 32 of AoDL.

Yup, those apothecary rules that list certain units are HORRIFICALLY outdated.

 

Or else how would any units from legions released after use apothecarys?

 

 

Rules are rules and the whole Horus Heresy game is already outdated before printing anyway (ie : attach antything to grey slayers and they lose warrior's mettle).

 

Moreover, as a wolf player since rogue trader, to me wolf priests have always been the real apothicaries.

 

Holy Russ, I miss the time of the first HH book, when it was just fun and fluffy..