[HH1.0] 30k Space Wolves tactics

[Baluc]

Sw shoot about as well as any other legion. The fluff is pretty good on this, its about controlled brutality. Knowing when to charge and when to shoot, a lot of the time I actually just let people charge me. The name "The Rout" has really stuck for me, breaking the enemy in the movement and shooting phases and then ending the game in assault. So I tend to focus on building an army that shoots effectively and let me assault in a timely fashion. 

[Runefyre]

So did anyone here play Wolves at Adepticon? Does anyone have advice to share?

[Chronos Darkhelmet]

So has anyone thought about taking Vigilators to fill out the mandatory HQ requirements?

 

Like around 2.5k and greater take two vigilators and infiltrate+scout large Grey Slayer blobs right into the enemy's face.

 

Turn 2 detach the vigilators so the GS's can run+charge. Give the vigilators GFB's and charge them with the GS's to unlock Fury of the Pack (if taking Pale Hunters).

Me! But with a full unit of Thallax with photon thrusters taken as optional HS choice thanks to my grenadier Tech with cortex, in order to outflank at 2+ with them with TL side :D

 

Following in fact the concept that SW shoot as well as the other Legions, having already planned decent CC units (bikes with HQs, Termies on Spartan) and not wanting to run Hvarl at all costs the Vigilator + Thallax was the best choice in this direction IMHO ;)

 

Now I only need to craft my Viggy and buy 9 Thallax :P

[Purge the Daemon]

 

So has anyone thought about taking Vigilators to fill out the mandatory HQ requirements?

 

Like around 2.5k and greater take two vigilators and infiltrate+scout large Grey Slayer blobs right into the enemy's face.

 

Turn 2 detach the vigilators so the GS's can run+charge. Give the vigilators GFB's and charge them with the GS's to unlock Fury of the Pack (if taking Pale Hunters).

Me! But with a full unit of Thallax with photon thrusters taken as optional HS choice thanks to my grenadier Tech with cortex, in order to outflank at 2+ with them with TL side :D

 

Following in fact the concept that SW shoot as well as the other Legions, having already planned decent CC units (bikes with HQs, Termies on Spartan) and not wanting to run Hvarl at all costs the Vigilator + Thallax was the best choice in this direction IMHO ;)

 

Now I only need to craft my Viggy and buy 9 Thallax :P

I have a few questions here.

 

How are they gaining outflank if you aren't using Hvarl?

 

Also isn't this unit like 500 points? If not more. But it doesn't really seem to do anything 6 photon thrusters shots and some lighting guns doesn't seem impressive. Sure they are hardish to kill (4+ saves aren't great and vidicators/Medusas will eat them) but they have no punch they also aren't scoring in heavy support. Wouldn't like a Sicaran with lascannons be better in about every way or just some outflanking Javelins?

 

I'm just not really seeing the appeal to spend a quarter of a list on a unit thats not really threatening anything outside of a Rhino. Thallax also have innate deepstrike so I'm not really sure precision outflank is worth spending even more points on. I also definetly think for your points there are far better options.

[Runefyre]

He plans to attach a vigilator with jump pack to grant outflank if I'm reading his post correctly.

 

Honestly 6 str6 ap2 shots with effectively ignores cover (combined with the additional 6 lightning gun shots) doesn't sound too bad for hunting bikes. And it's not like the unit will just evaporate. I'm sure there are more points efficient combos out there, but I think it looks fun and is quite unique.

[Dantay VI]

What about using vigilators to bring with seekers?

 

Infiltrate and scout them up to threaten something juicy then use as a distraaction unt allowing assault/deathsworn squads to bound forward with Hvarl bringing in the grey slayers and your veterans  using outflank from their ruleset?

[Baluc]

I played at Adepticon, my wins came from absorbing whatever the opposition could throw at me. And then, bring units in from outflank fresh, and pulling the enemy apart. I used the unit of Vorax was pretty beastly. However, it wouldn't stand up to Primarch stars or something of those levels of power. But it will beat out pretty much anything short. Too be honest my army wasn't insanely competitive, I had grav-melta speeders which are pretty mediocre, and two grey slayers on foot. 

 

I could probably build a stronger version given more painting time. 

[Runefyre]

I played at Adepticon, my wins came from absorbing whatever the opposition could throw at me. And then, bring units in from outflank fresh, and pulling the enemy apart. I used the unit of Vorax was pretty beastly. However, it wouldn't stand up to Primarch stars or something of those levels of power. But it will beat out pretty much anything short. Too be honest my army wasn't insanely competitive, I had grav-melta speeders which are pretty mediocre, and two grey slayers on foot. 

 

I could probably build a stronger version given more painting time. 

Would you care to write up what you think would have been your "optimal" list that you would have brought? I'm quite curious as I'm (obviously) still in the planning stages of my 30k Wolves.

[Chronos Darkhelmet]

 

 

So has anyone thought about taking Vigilators to fill out the mandatory HQ requirements?

 

Like around 2.5k and greater take two vigilators and infiltrate+scout large Grey Slayer blobs right into the enemy's face.

 

Turn 2 detach the vigilators so the GS's can run+charge. Give the vigilators GFB's and charge them with the GS's to unlock Fury of the Pack (if taking Pale Hunters).

Me! But with a full unit of Thallax with photon thrusters taken as optional HS choice thanks to my grenadier Tech with cortex, in order to outflank at 2+ with them with TL side :D

 

Following in fact the concept that SW shoot as well as the other Legions, having already planned decent CC units (bikes with HQs, Termies on Spartan) and not wanting to run Hvarl at all costs the Vigilator + Thallax was the best choice in this direction IMHO ;)

 

Now I only need to craft my Viggy and buy 9 Thallax :P

I have a few questions here.

 

How are they gaining outflank if you aren't using Hvarl?

 

Also isn't this unit like 500 points? If not more. But it doesn't really seem to do anything 6 photon thrusters shots and some lighting guns doesn't seem impressive. Sure they are hardish to kill (4+ saves aren't great and vidicators/Medusas will eat them) but they have no punch they also aren't scoring in heavy support. Wouldn't like a Sicaran with lascannons be better in about every way or just some outflanking Javelins?

 

I'm just not really seeing the appeal to spend a quarter of a list on a unit thats not really threatening anything outside of a Rhino. Thallax also have innate deepstrike so I'm not really sure precision outflank is worth spending even more points on. I also definetly think for your points there are far better options.

Exactly as Runefyre explained ;)

 

That Thallax unit is 450 pts with 9 members and 3 thrusters, so with the Vigilator is more than 1/6 list in terms of points. What I was looking for was fire support arriving unforeseen thanks to SW + RoW bonuses, and the most decent unit I've identified so far is the Thallax optional HS. I know that it's a bit pricy for 12 shots in total and not a lot of resistance, but that's the "best" I've found so far to satisfy my strategy (also note that I only have 10 Vets atm, and my game fellas dislike both repeated unit choices and special characters - pls don't ask me why all of this has be decided :P) :D

 

Other possible choices to fulfill more or less the same role include:

1) other Vets (disfavoured for the reasons above);

2) Seekers (although their best ammunition convert the bolter into a heavy weapon);

3) Supports with good shooting weapons (10 plasmas with Apothecary maybe?);

4) other silly choices such as Destroyers with missiles or Techs with beamers and servitors.

 

Of course, since I'm open-minded and still looking for alternatives, if you are aware of a better combo in terms of "unforeseen fire" don't hesitate to let me know ;)

[Hfran Morkai]

I think I'm missing something.

 

Earlier in the thread I proposed a Plasma Support Squad with a Speaker of the Dead for FNP and PE (Infantry) but it was suggested I should have gone with a Master of Signals instead. But the MoS squad buff appears to be a +1 to BS which while nice I don't think compares to PE (Infantry) considering that helps out with hopefully negating some Gets Hot! rolls. I know MoS also gets his bombardment and a Nunico Vox but I just don't see it.

 

I feel I should state here currently I only have Inferno and the Battlescribe catalogues until I can buy the red books so may be missing something entirely.

[Chronos Darkhelmet]

I think I'm missing something.

 

Earlier in the thread I proposed a Plasma Support Squad with a Speaker of the Dead for FNP and PE (Infantry) but it was suggested I should have gone with a Master of Signals instead. But the MoS squad buff appears to be a +1 to BS which while nice I don't think compares to PE (Infantry) considering that helps out with hopefully negating some Gets Hot! rolls. I know MoS also gets his bombardment and a Nunico Vox but I just don't see it.

 

I feel I should state here currently I only have Inferno and the Battlescribe catalogues until I can buy the red books so may be missing something entirely.

As far as I recall with no book support at hand, you are right in MoS giving +1 BS and a bombardment. Probably this suggestion came since with SotD you have a final chance of 77% to hit and 3% to suffer a gets hot wound (to be saved after with AS + FnP, i.e. 2% chance to auto-kill), while in case of MoS + normal Apothecary you get 83% and 17% respectively (i.e. 13%). I think that the suggestion came from the simple point of view of maximising the damage of a unit which will rarely last more than 1 turn after having brutally shot its target down ;)

[Baluc]

Keep in mind that for Adepticon a) Custodes won best loyalist, and b ) you only had to play armies of the other alignment.

 

Mostly changes to my list would be to get more tools for dealing with AV14, or adding them to my list myself. Unfortunately I haven't as of yet solved either problem individually or together. 

Edited April 1, 2017 by Baluc

[Purge the Daemon]

 

I think I'm missing something.

 

Earlier in the thread I proposed a Plasma Support Squad with a Speaker of the Dead for FNP and PE (Infantry) but it was suggested I should have gone with a Master of Signals instead. But the MoS squad buff appears to be a +1 to BS which while nice I don't think compares to PE (Infantry) considering that helps out with hopefully negating some Gets Hot! rolls. I know MoS also gets his bombardment and a Nunico Vox but I just don't see it.

 

I feel I should state here currently I only have Inferno and the Battlescribe catalogues until I can buy the red books so may be missing something entirely.

As far as I recall with no book support at hand, you are right in MoS giving +1 BS and a bombardment. Probably this suggestion came since with SotD you have a final chance of 77% to hit and 3% to suffer a gets hot wound (to be saved after with AS + FnP, i.e. 2% chance to auto-kill), while in case of MoS + normal Apothecary you get 83% and 17% respectively (i.e. 13%). I think that the suggestion came from the simple point of view of maximising the damage of a unit which will rarely last more than 1 turn after having brutally shot its target down ;)

Its also that the priest only gives prefered enemy infantry so vs 2+ save biker armies you get no bonus while you always get the mos bonus. So it's a bit more versatile as you get it vs every target to.

[Hfran Morkai]

Awesome. Had a feeling I was missing something and means I won't be running two SotD at 2500 points

[Grimtooth]

What point level do any of you think is it time to bring in Russ?  2500 or 3k?

[TheWolfLord]

2500 is when they have the bigger impact on the game. They can leave you a little short on units but at 3000 their impact is diminished by more powerful Lords of War.

[LukeTheButcher]

After Action Report

 

Right, So I am bone-tired having competed in a weekend long 30k Tourni involving 5 battles. As luck would have it I played no fewer than 3 (all of them infact) Thousand Son players. My arm list was post a page or two back. Tested out Russ, Grey Slayers, Great Frost Blade and Speaker of he Dead and Bloodied Claw RoW.

 

 

 

Battle 1: Thousand Son's - Loss

Magnus and Russ leapt out of their respective Spartans with respective bodyguards (Terminators vs Sekmet) and proceeded to recreate Prospero.

Magnus was buffed with Warp Speed and i blocked/my opponent failed to cast Iron Arm. After a couple of turns Magnus couldn't hit Russ and with Enfeeble on, Russ couldn't hurt Magnus. We ran out of turns and i lost by 1 VP as the 2 Primarchs canceleld each other out.

The Grey Slayers rules didn't really account for much but the Speaker of the Dead was a nice boost.

Conclusion: Magnus can be as much of a CC beast as Russ when Biomancy buffed.

 

 

Battle 2: Alpha Legion - Win

My opponent had no LoW and more importantly, no luck. Russ went rampant tearing through a Vindicator Squadron and a 20 man Tactical Squad. His reserve rolls deserted him leaving him under strength with no counter to Russ and his bodyguard.

Conclusion: No reserve manipulation can kill you with extensive reserves - something to be wary with Outflank.

 

 

Battle 3: Thousand Sons - Loss

My opponent didn't have Magnus or a Super Heavy, instead testing out the other aspects of the Thousand Sons. The mission was a bit of a pain which I think hindered me, but it still ended a white wash. Russ killed things, but his army was so spread out with no high valuable targets to destroy. But 20 man Tactical Squads with their special rounds and Prescience on them was a real pain. My army lacked the templates to clear them and the Grey Slayers having to charge was like a free gift to the 1k Sons firing squads.

Conclusion: With Magnus you tend to empower him over buffing the army. Without Magnus, the 1K sons get considerable mileage from spreading the buffs.

 

 

Battle 4: Mechanicum - Win

My first battle vs a titan (Warhound) an my Lightening proved its worth by turning up turn 2 and blowing it to hell (once Spartan & others stripped its void shields). My fear of templates get the better of me and I detached Russ (Though I could get Russ a lot closer for a charge and split targets up). 26 Graviton Gun saves (on his Invulnerable only) from the Mech HQ and bodyguard saw Russ dead and me a little wiser.  One Grey Slayer squad did it's job well, battling  a Giant Robot thing (really big artillery Robot??) and eventually killing it with Power Fists.

Conclusion: The RoW gave me the edge with the Furious Charge and the +1 to Combat resolution. The boosts on a charge can be quite considerable and really proved in turn 1 combats throughout the day to be a boon. Unfortunately, most combats lasted beyond turn 1 thanks to an abundance of Fearless/stubborn.

 

 

Battle 5: Thousand Sons - Win

Two dice roll's decided the outcome of the game. Magnus scattering off-table with his deep-strike teleportation and rolling a 1 for the deep-strike mishap.  Magnus, his Praetor and Sekmet all gone. Then Russ proceeded to take out a weakened Knight and a Leviathan for good measure (although I will admit the Leviathan scared the daylights out of me with its Severing Cut rule?). Grey Slayers did good service with Powerfists and the RoW helping to tie a long drawn out brawl with a Terminator squad.

Conclusion: When the Dark Gods of the Warp plague your opponent, just pray to the Allfather they don't turn their gaze on you.

 

 

Overall: Russ was a bruising brawler, but enough firepower puts everything down. The Speaker of the Dead was invaluable with his Feel No Pain and did good service with the Great Frost Blade. Lower Int was a nuisance though. Grey Slayers proved as effective as any core troop, but I think Bolters were a waste on them. Bloodied Claws worked for me, I liked the bonuses and found it pretty useful although a couple of times Grey Slayers seemed determined to commit suicide with a charge.

 

Dinners ready, so more later if I can remember.

 

 

Luke

[Baluc]

Yeah Bolters seem a waste. I did take 2 combi-meltas but I don't think I ever actually fired them.

 

Thousand Sons are rough because if they just buff you actually can't stop and powers going off.

 

I'm working a few new concepts simultaneously at the moment. Mostly centered around mmu. Unfortunately I doubt I will ever actually field Russ as I need the fire power of my LoW slot.

[Caillum]

I think in Game Three you got played Luke. Tacticals cannot take Asphyx shells for their bolters!

[LukeTheButcher]

May have been some other mojo or special rule and my rusty memory. I semi know the guy I was playing and he's a good sort so if there was an error it would have been more new rules syndrome rather than anything else.

 

Even some of the 1k son rules seem a little unclear!

[Jackalwolf]

Baluc, why not run Onslaught since you're not particularly fond of any of our RoWs? Run Valdor in an allied detachment with 3 custodes to re-roll Seize initiative

[Baluc]

Baluc, why not run Onslaught since you're not particularly fond of any of our RoWs? Run Valdor in an allied detachment with 3 custodes to re-roll Seize initiative

 

I'm mostly building for events currently, which don't allow optional detachments. When my friends get together, Primarchs are just included for free. 

 

So I'm strugging a little when it comes to combat units. 

 

So far I have in game experience with Vorax, and Terminators. I'm considering a bike unit, but without a Chaplain they seem a bit unreliable. 

[Grimtooth]

2500 is when they have the bigger impact on the game. They can leave you a little short on units but at 3000 their impact is diminished by more powerful Lords of War.

I find myself in the middle of a list build and look up and see that I haven't even included Russ and am like "Crap!"

[Baluc]

I've been casting my RoW benefit net wide and have come up with a few RoW that add something to my list that I couldn't get elsewhere. I've settled on Brethren of Iron for the time being, to get some more combat help into my list. I'm looking at units that are scary enough to draw attention of my somewhat fragile scoring units, but also cheap enough that they don't impact my unit selections too heavily.

 

Using Brethren of Iron I've settled on Domitar and Castallax, since they tend to draw anti-vehicle fire to kill, don't score, but definitely need to be addressed. Domitar are obviously superior on the base profile, but Castallax are seriously cheaper.

 

Castellax - 120

w/ Frags, Two Battle-autamata Power Blades, Multimelta

 

5 S6 Ap2, at Ws3, I3 on the charge

 

Domitar 180

w/ Frags, 

4 S10 Ap2, at Ws4, I3

 

So the difference is 60 pts, the Domitar can fight 2 wound units, or units with FnP like Bikes. The Castellax gives me a disposable tough unit to throw at people. Shooting wise is 1 s8 shot on each, the Domitar has range, the Castellax has AP 1. Neither can really fight a Primarch solo, but I could take a pair of either. 

 

Thoughts?

[Purge the Daemon]

I've been casting my RoW benefit net wide and have come up with a few RoW that add something to my list that I couldn't get elsewhere. I've settled on Brethren of Iron for the time being, to get some more combat help into my list. I'm looking at units that are scary enough to draw attention of my somewhat fragile scoring units, but also cheap enough that they don't impact my unit selections too heavily.

 

Using Brethren of Iron I've settled on Domitar and Castallax, since they tend to draw anti-vehicle fire to kill, don't score, but definitely need to be addressed. Domitar are obviously superior on the base profile, but Castallax are seriously cheaper.

 

Castellax - 120

w/ Frags, Two Battle-autamata Power Blades, Multimelta

 

5 S6 Ap2, at Ws3, I3 on the charge

 

Domitar 180

w/ Frags,

4 S10 Ap2, at Ws4, I3

 

So the difference is 60 pts, the Domitar can fight 2 wound units, or units with FnP like Bikes. The Castellax gives me a disposable tough unit to throw at people. Shooting wise is 1 s8 shot on each, the Domitar has range, the Castellax has AP 1. Neither can really fight a Primarch solo, but I could take a pair of either.

 

Thoughts?

Most mechnicum players avoid Domitar they are fairly lackluster. Castellax bring much better shooting and hit almost as hard in melee if you want s10 or rending there are Castellax upgrades for that anyways.